No, there is no such thing as a soul.
Yes. They are physical processes in the brain.
OK. But I am willing to look at any evidence you have for something non-material. It's just that emotions and thoughts don't qualify.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
By the way -- if you claim to be a Christian...
- Thread starter YoursTrue
- Start date
This is part of the difficulty. Spirituality as you describe it is consistent with a purely material universe. It has nothing to do with 'spirits' or 'souls' or anything non-material.
ElishaElijah
Return
Ok so when I made the statement that only God can change a human heart I believe you should’ve said there is no such thing, I don’t think you were saying the physical heart when you were saying there are other reasons like caring for someone, believe you mentioned the test was the change of actions which wouldn’t be able to judge motive or intent. So where are you with that because it seems like you’re contradicting yourself.
The phrase 'the human heart' is typically taken to mean the mind and motives of a person, not the heart in ones chest. I took it that way. It is a loose way of expressing the concept, not a perfectly accurate one.
When I say someone has a change of heart, it simply means their motivations and perspective have changed.
But yes, I would say there is no God.
ElishaElijah
Return
I’m surprised by your answer because it seems by your answers about the soul contradicts what you’re saying about the heart.
McBell
Unbound
Except that the most commonly used use of the figure of speech "change of heart" is simply to change ones mind.
Are you saying that the human heart is the same as soul?
ElishaElijah
Return
Mind, Will and Emotions are what I think of for the Soul.
McBell
Unbound
So then, not a synonym for heart, but along the same kind of lines?
ElishaElijah
Return
Mind, Will and Emotions are what I consider the Soul
”The good person out of the good treasure of his heart produces good, and the evil person out of his evil treasure produces evil, for out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks.“
Luke 6:45 ESV
How so? There is no soul. The 'heart' is simply a way of talking about our thoughts and emotions. Those thoughts and emotions are the result of physical processes in our brains (and not in our actual hearts).
OK, my point is that these are all the results of physical processes and not evidence for a non-physical aspect to existence.
The “soul” is just a metaphor for a set of human traits and expressions. There is nothing that correlates to the word that is a material thing.
We understand the word soul is yet another idea that lacks factual basis as believers claim.
ElishaElijah
Return
No not exactly, plus someone else probably can explain it better than I can.
When a person is born again:
”I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.“
Ezekiel 36:26-27 NKJV
Your soul: work out your salvation
”Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;“
Philippians 2:12 NKJV
”casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,“
II Corinthians 10:5 NKJV
Last edited:
ElishaElijah
Return
Ok, just wanted to understand what you were saying, you believe we are a product of a physical process in our brains, that makes you who you are and that’s it.
Well, the interactions I have had also affect who I am now. But yes, my thoughts, emotions, goals, beliefs, attitudes, etc are ALL brain processes.
I think it is instructive that the word for 'spirit' is the same as that for 'breath'. The breath was seen as defining what it means to be alive (which, by the way, is why a fetus in the womb was not seen as alive). Since nobody understood the mechanics of breathing and why it is necessary for life, it became a non-material thing. This was *wrong*, of course, but it was a common ancient belief.
That a beating heart was also required was also noticed. That many emotions are felt in the chest also linked the beating heart with the emotions. Again, this is a *wrong* identification, but it was a common one.
So, when an ancient writing talks about spirit and heart, they are using the common understanding of the time which identified the spirit with breath and the heart with emotions. It wasn't until much later that we learned that the brain is actually where emotions and thoughts reside and that breath is important for an exchange of oxygen and carbon dioxide (if these can be done artificially, no breath is required).
ElishaElijah
Return
Well seems you’re content believing you’re just the sum part of the chemical reactions in your brain. I guess that makes you who you are.
If that was the case then I’m wondering why all living beings just can’t think like human beings, just make up a cocktail and boom!
Also,’would seem like it’s an easy thing to restore brain function by some chemical infusion for a person who died prematurely due to some kind of accident.
Last edited:
He’s a highly educated and intelligent person. He doesn’t make religious assumptions which is the backbone of religion and beliefs. You do make these assumptions but confuse them as if factual or truth. There’s no basis for this.
So you don’t understand why human brains evolved differently from other primates. That knowledge is available for free on the internet. There’s no excuse to not know these facts about biology. There’s certainly no magic.
Brains are material objects that need oxygen to function. Brains can endure 2-3 minutes without oxygen ( which is delivered by the blood, which needs the heart to beat) because there’s a bit of sugar and oxygen in the cells. If oxygen isn’t delivered then brain death occurs. Clinical death is a period where vital functions can be restored before brain death.
This is all 7th grade science. I’m curious why you don’t have a basic working knowledge of biology. If only you spent more time on science and less on religion you would have a better grasp of how the universe works.
ElishaElijah
Return
Amazing! This dream has come to pass and we are living in the time of the last kingdom before Jesus returns.
”Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, “The secret which the king has demanded, the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, and the soothsayers cannot declare to the king. But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these: As for you, O king, thoughts came to your mind while on your bed, about what would come to pass after this; and He who reveals secrets has made known to you what will be. But as for me, this secret has not been revealed to me because I have more wisdom than anyone living, but for our sakes who make known the interpretation to the king, and that you may know the thoughts of your heart. “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”“
Daniel 2:27-45 NKJV
”Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, “The secret which the king has demanded, the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, and the soothsayers cannot declare to the king. But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets, and He has made known to King Nebuchadnezzar what will be in the latter days. Your dream, and the visions of your head upon your bed, were these: As for you, O king, thoughts came to your mind while on your bed, about what would come to pass after this; and He who reveals secrets has made known to you what will be. But as for me, this secret has not been revealed to me because I have more wisdom than anyone living, but for our sakes who make known the interpretation to the king, and that you may know the thoughts of your heart. “You, O king, were watching; and behold, a great image! This great image, whose splendor was excellent, stood before you; and its form was awesome. This image’s head was of fine gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. You watched while a stone was cut out without hands, which struck the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. “This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”“
Daniel 2:27-45 NKJV
I don't see how being 'content' has anything to do with it. Whether I like or dislike a truth is irrelevant.
Not all living things have brains as complex as those of humans. In particular, our frontal cortex, which manages planning, is a LOT larger than in other primates. We also have developed areas for language that other animals have not developed.
You might want to look at the book 'Behave' by Robert Sapolsky. It goes into some of what we know at this point.
Getting the correct chemicals to the correct places and removing the built-up bad chemicals is way beyond our technology. Once the oxygen stops getting to the brain (because, for example, we stop breathing or because the heart stops pumping), decay starts--a build up of chemicals that would usually be removed (using that oxygen). Reversing this process requires very accurate repairs at the level of neurons across the brain. Among other things, the supply of oxygen needs to be restored *before* the decay goes too far.
It might be possible at some point in the future, but we are nowhere close to this technology (or even detailed knowledge) currently.
Oh, by the way, this is approximately what *does* happen for those that are revived in some cases. it just isn't reliable or generalized now.
Last edited:
Considering you claim to miss much of it, I'm not surprised you aren't following. I'm not going that fast, you should be able to keep up.