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By the Way...

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
The strangest thought has come to me today while the rioting is going on in D.C.

About 40 years ago, the Democratic Party elites began abandoning the working class and rural voters in most part because there were substantially larger campaign contributions to be had by aligning themselves with the economic and social interests of suburban professionals and wall street. Thus, they left their traditional supporters out in the rain, ripe for any charlatan who might come along, promising them pie in the sky 'greatness' again. But no need to worry. They were only throwing under the bus people who deserved to be thrown there by virtue of lacking higher educations and politically correct views on so many matters. Best to expend them, rather than try to lead them out of their troubles.

It's just idle curiosity on my part, but has anyone heard how that has worked out for the Dems? Pretty darn good, I imagine.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
All this political bickering would end overnight if ANYONE in government, of ANY party, would actually start FIXING things so that the working and middle classes could stop sliding into poverty, and start feeling economically hopeful and secure, again.

But I think we all know that isn't going to happen.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
They just found trumpers who put pipe bombs by the RNC building. they got into the senate well now too. The national guard including from Marlyand and Virgina are being deployed atm.

I don't know if we should really be focusing on center-right democratic party when literal far right fascists are trying to stop democracy this exact moment.

It is not the same.

No one should make excuses for people still following and supporting a clearly racist, fascist wannabe dictator. Hell another tape came out of him trying to pressure Georgia to come up with "just 11,780 votes". One side doesn't care for democracy, and constantly has made clear. Trying to stop votes when behind, make up votes when ahead. Have stormed where vote counts were too before this.

How America respnds to this will determine the future of this country.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
They just found trumpers who put pipe bombs by the RNC building. they got into the senate well now too. The national guard including from Marlyand and Virgina are being deployed atm.

I don't know if we should really be focusing on center-right democratic party when literal far right fascists are trying to stop democracy this exact moment.

It is not the same.

No one should make excuses for people still following and supporting a clearly racist, fascist wannabe dictator. Hell another tape came out of him trying to pressure Georgia to come up with "just 11,780 votes". One side doesn't care for democracy, and constantly has made clear. Trying to stop votes when behind, make up votes when ahead. Have stormed where vote counts were too before this.

How America respnds to this will determine the future of this country.

No time is too soon to learn from history. Those who do not are doomed to repeat it.

We must learn to chew gum and walk at the same time.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
All this political bickering would end overnight if ANYONE in government, of ANY party, would actually start FIXING things so that the working and middle classes could stop sliding into poverty, and start feeling economically hopeful and secure, again.

But I think we all know that isn't going to happen.
Strong change to election financing could work wonders...
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
No time is too soon to learn from history. Those who do not are doomed to repeat it.

We must learn to chew gum and walk at the same time.

My problem with that stance is it's akin to talking about how to construct more fireproof houses while you are inside trying to evacuate the house on fire.

Like, maybe we should focus on the literal fascists instead of diverting attention and blaming liberals for it? Maybe the fascists are 110% responsible for throwing in behind facsism.

Edit: we can learn about it all we want, but maybe after we condemn fascism and the riot ends. The lack of condeming facsism and instead blaming liberals for far-right fascist is very yikes and a common right-wing talking point.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
If it would happen. But the wolves are in charge of the hen house and they are not going to vote to lock themselves out.
Hey, we did it in Canada!

Political Entries 2016
Political parties: A maximum of $1,525 (about US$1,148) per calendar year to each of the registered political parties
Registered associations: A maximum of $1,525 per calendar year, in the aggregate, tothe registered electoral district associations, nomination
contestants and candidates of each of the registered political parties
Nomination contestants: A maximum of $1,525 per calendar year, in the aggregate, to the registered electoral district associations, nomination contestants and candidates of each of the registered political parties
Party-endorsed candidates: A maximum of $1,525 per calendar year, in the aggregate, to the registered electoral district associations, nomination contestants and candidates of each of the registered political parties
Independent candidates: A maximum of $1,525 per election to each independent candidate
Leadership contestants: A maximum of $1,525 per calendar year, in the aggregate, to all of the contestants in a leadership contest
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
The strangest thought has come to me today while the rioting is going on in D.C.

About 40 years ago, the Democratic Party elites began abandoning the working class and rural voters in most part because there were substantially larger campaign contributions to be had by aligning themselves with the economic and social interests of suburban professionals and wall street. Thus, they left their traditional supporters out in the rain, ripe for any charlatan who might come along, promising them pie in the sky 'greatness' again. But no need to worry. They were only throwing under the bus people who deserved to be thrown there by virtue of lacking higher educations and politically correct views on so many matters. Best to expend them, rather than try to lead them out of their troubles.

It's just idle curiosity on my part, but has anyone heard how that has worked out for the Dems? Pretty darn good, I imagine.
Basically. Where I grew up used to be a fierce Blue haven in a sea of Red solely because of union support.
That has heavily waned and it's now a part of a bigger ocean of Trump flags.
But that cities being gentrified so things will likely be changed by emd of this decade.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
My problem with that stance is it's akin to talking about how to construct more fireproof houses while you are inside trying to evacuate the house on fire.

Like, maybe we should focus on the literal fascists instead of diverting attention and blaming liberals for it? Maybe the fascists are 110% responsible for throwing in behind facsism.

Edit: we can learn about it all we want, but maybe after we condemn fascism and the riot ends. The lack of condeming facsism and instead blaming liberals for far-right fascist is very yikes and a common right-wing talking point.

You can't chew gum and walk at the same time is what you seem to be saying.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The strangest thought has come to me today while the rioting is going on in D.C.

About 40 years ago, the Democratic Party elites began abandoning the working class and rural voters in most part because there were substantially larger campaign contributions to be had by aligning themselves with the economic and social interests of suburban professionals and wall street. Thus, they left their traditional supporters out in the rain, ripe for any charlatan who might come along, promising them pie in the sky 'greatness' again. But no need to worry. They were only throwing under the bus people who deserved to be thrown there by virtue of lacking higher educations and politically correct views on so many matters. Best to expend them, rather than try to lead them out of their troubles.

It's just idle curiosity on my part, but has anyone heard how that has worked out for the Dems? Pretty darn good, I imagine.

I recall the 1980 election when Reagan defeated Carter. Carter's campaign was hobbled by the Iranian hostage crisis (and alleged collusion with Reagan's campaign). Carter also faced opposition from his own party, as Edward Kennedy ran against him in the Democratic primaries. John Anderson, who was a Republican but more on the liberal side, ran as an independent, which probably took more votes away from Carter than from Reagan.

The Democrats had been in quite a mess since the 60s. After JFK and RFK, LBJ's failures in Vietnam, the debacle of the '68 convention - as well as being weakened by the departure of the Dixiecrats. The election of '72 was tainted by the Watergate scandal, and McGovern was regarded as a "radical" by many.

Carter was the safer choice in '76, which he barely won - and that was largely because there was widespread hatred of Nixon and the Republicans. Times were not good either. Inflation was high, unemployment was high, crime was high, memories of the energy crisis were still fresh. Gas prices were shooting through the roof. The Democrats had control of both the House and the Senate, along with the White House - yet they still couldn't really get much done.

I think Ted Kennedy ended up playing himself out and made a bad move by going after Carter in 1980, especially at a time of national crisis and a need for party unity with Reagan waiting in the wings - although Reagan also faced some opposition from some of his fellow Republicans, at least at first. Reagan seemed much tougher and determined, while Carter seemed wishy-washy, weak, and inept - especially when dealing with the Iranian problem. There was also the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan which Carter seemed impotent to deal with.

This was also a time when people were starting to re-evaluate what had been going on in the U.S. for the previous few decades. I was a teenager around that time, and many of those in the older generations were talking it up about how all them hippies and women's libbers were ruining the country and how they wanted to return to Christian values and good old fashioned Americanism like it used to be.

Even the hippies themselves had matured somewhat and many were joining the establishment. The more progressive Democrats seemed less popular among the rank-and-file Democrats (not that they ever were that popular to begin with).

There seemed to be a general cultural shift at that point, and this likely influenced the political climate. On the economic front, Reagan's ideas might have seemed promising at the time, especially since things were pretty tough during the 70s under Nixon, Ford, and Carter. Even many Democrats were convinced, as there were a number of crossover voters.

In '84, the Democrats nominated another safe candidate, Walter Mondale. I remember that I voted for Jesse Jackson in the Democratic primary, although I also liked Gary Hart. I didn't care much for Mondale at all, but my grandparents both liked him. Reagan won in a landslide. I keep wondering what might have happened if the Democrats nominated Hart instead.

I think it was somewhere around 1988 that I lost complete faith in the Democratic Party - and the U.S. political system overall (although having spent my formative years during the Vietnam-Watergate era, I was already pretty jaded to begin with). I supported Gary Hart's candidacy, but the Democratic voters ended up picking Dukakis, whose candidacy was another disaster for the Democrats. I still recall the time when he took that ride on a tank to prove to his detractors that he was tough.

An interesting sidenote is that Gary Hart was forced to end his campaign because of a report that he had been having an affair. Same allegations were made against Clinton, but it didn't seem to matter. Strange how these things work out.

I didn't like Clinton in '92. I actually supported Jerry Brown for the nomination. My friend remarked that Clinton was "a Republican in sheep's clothing," which I think is a fair assessment. I remember people talking a lot about the "global economy" as if it was a new thing, but with the Cold War being over, the breakup of the Soviet Union and the friendlier relationship with China, things were changing.

Whatever had been set in motion in terms of the direction America was taking, both political and economic, the Democrats seemed neither willing or able to rock the boat and go back to their earlier ways of being the "party of the working man." The progressives like Nader and Brown, or some of the rust belt pro-labor types like Traficant, just didn't have as much popularity within the Democratic Party as the neo-liberal types like Clinton.

I think there was an air of recklessness in U.S. politics, especially since the Cold War had ended and America was flying high from Desert Storm. There was a strong push for free trade, such as with NAFTA, as well as closer trade ties with nations such as China, which nobody really seemed to have any real problem - even many capitalists and those who had been staunchly anti-communist. They thought that China was turning capitalist and that Russia was also becoming capitalist.

So, there seemed to be this belief that capitalism had won and that capitalism will rule the world. We also saw ourselves in a somewhat advantageous situation, with China pacified and Russia made impotent, we doubled-down on our role as "world's policeman" even more, since our leaders ostensibly felt America could do whatever it wanted.

To be fair, the Democrats didn't completely abandon the working classes. They did pay some lip service and continued to favor social programs for the poor, job training for those displaced by outsourcing, along with tending to favor better funding for education and healthcare. These are popular issues which many people favor over the Republicans - although Republicans often support those programs, too, just to a lesser degree.

But there's only a certain point the Democrats will go. Some of the right-wingers on the radio think that the Democrats are plotting a "communist takeover," but they can rest assured that that's never going to happen with today's Democratic Party. They are too heavily trenched and vested in the current system to be rocking any boats.

The only boat rocking these days seems to be coming from the other side. But the Democrats will probably be rocking many of their own boats as well - as they've usually done.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I recall the 1980 election when Reagan defeated Carter. Carter's campaign was hobbled by the Iranian hostage crisis (and alleged collusion with Reagan's campaign). Carter also faced opposition from his own party, as Edward Kennedy ran against him in the Democratic primaries. John Anderson, who was a Republican but more on the liberal side, ran as an independent, which probably took more votes away from Carter than from Reagan.

The Democrats had been in quite a mess since the 60s. After JFK and RFK, LBJ's failures in Vietnam, the debacle of the '68 convention - as well as being weakened by the departure of the Dixiecrats. The election of '72 was tainted by the Watergate scandal, and McGovern was regarded as a "radical" by many.

Carter was the safer choice in '76, which he barely won - and that was largely because there was widespread hatred of Nixon and the Republicans. Times were not good either. Inflation was high, unemployment was high, crime was high, memories of the energy crisis were still fresh. Gas prices were shooting through the roof. The Democrats had control of both the House and the Senate, along with the White House - yet they still couldn't really get much done.

I think Ted Kennedy ended up playing himself out and made a bad move by going after Carter in 1980, especially at a time of national crisis and a need for party unity with Reagan waiting in the wings - although Reagan also faced some opposition from some of his fellow Republicans, at least at first. Reagan seemed much tougher and determined, while Carter seemed wishy-washy, weak, and inept - especially when dealing with the Iranian problem. There was also the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan which Carter seemed impotent to deal with.

This was also a time when people were starting to re-evaluate what had been going on in the U.S. for the previous few decades. I was a teenager around that time, and many of those in the older generations were talking it up about how all them hippies and women's libbers were ruining the country and how they wanted to return to Christian values and good old fashioned Americanism like it used to be.

Even the hippies themselves had matured somewhat and many were joining the establishment. The more progressive Democrats seemed less popular among the rank-and-file Democrats (not that they ever were that popular to begin with).

There seemed to be a general cultural shift at that point, and this likely influenced the political climate. On the economic front, Reagan's ideas might have seemed promising at the time, especially since things were pretty tough during the 70s under Nixon, Ford, and Carter. Even many Democrats were convinced, as there were a number of crossover voters.

In '84, the Democrats nominated another safe candidate, Walter Mondale. I remember that I voted for Jesse Jackson in the Democratic primary, although I also liked Gary Hart. I didn't care much for Mondale at all, but my grandparents both liked him. Reagan won in a landslide. I keep wondering what might have happened if the Democrats nominated Hart instead.

I think it was somewhere around 1988 that I lost complete faith in the Democratic Party - and the U.S. political system overall (although having spent my formative years during the Vietnam-Watergate era, I was already pretty jaded to begin with). I supported Gary Hart's candidacy, but the Democratic voters ended up picking Dukakis, whose candidacy was another disaster for the Democrats. I still recall the time when he took that ride on a tank to prove to his detractors that he was tough.

An interesting sidenote is that Gary Hart was forced to end his campaign because of a report that he had been having an affair. Same allegations were made against Clinton, but it didn't seem to matter. Strange how these things work out.

I didn't like Clinton in '92. I actually supported Jerry Brown for the nomination. My friend remarked that Clinton was "a Republican in sheep's clothing," which I think is a fair assessment. I remember people talking a lot about the "global economy" as if it was a new thing, but with the Cold War being over, the breakup of the Soviet Union and the friendlier relationship with China, things were changing.

Whatever had been set in motion in terms of the direction America was taking, both political and economic, the Democrats seemed neither willing or able to rock the boat and go back to their earlier ways of being the "party of the working man." The progressives like Nader and Brown, or some of the rust belt pro-labor types like Traficant, just didn't have as much popularity within the Democratic Party as the neo-liberal types like Clinton.

I think there was an air of recklessness in U.S. politics, especially since the Cold War had ended and America was flying high from Desert Storm. There was a strong push for free trade, such as with NAFTA, as well as closer trade ties with nations such as China, which nobody really seemed to have any real problem - even many capitalists and those who had been staunchly anti-communist. They thought that China was turning capitalist and that Russia was also becoming capitalist.

So, there seemed to be this belief that capitalism had won and that capitalism will rule the world. We also saw ourselves in a somewhat advantageous situation, with China pacified and Russia made impotent, we doubled-down on our role as "world's policeman" even more, since our leaders ostensibly felt America could do whatever it wanted.

To be fair, the Democrats didn't completely abandon the working classes. They did pay some lip service and continued to favor social programs for the poor, job training for those displaced by outsourcing, along with tending to favor better funding for education and healthcare. These are popular issues which many people favor over the Republicans - although Republicans often support those programs, too, just to a lesser degree.

But there's only a certain point the Democrats will go. Some of the right-wingers on the radio think that the Democrats are plotting a "communist takeover," but they can rest assured that that's never going to happen with today's Democratic Party. They are too heavily trenched and vested in the current system to be rocking any boats.

The only boat rocking these days seems to be coming from the other side. But the Democrats will probably be rocking many of their own boats as well - as they've usually done.

Thank you so much for that summary of the relevant history! I can't offhand think of a major point you did not mention, and I believe your analysis is substantially spot on and notably astute.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The strangest thought has come to me today while the rioting is going on in D.C.

About 40 years ago, the Democratic Party elites began abandoning the working class and rural voters in most part because there were substantially larger campaign contributions to be had by aligning themselves with the economic and social interests of suburban professionals and wall street. Thus, they left their traditional supporters out in the rain, ripe for any charlatan who might come along, promising them pie in the sky 'greatness' again. But no need to worry. They were only throwing under the bus people who deserved to be thrown there by virtue of lacking higher educations and politically correct views on so many matters. Best to expend them, rather than try to lead them out of their troubles.

It's just idle curiosity on my part, but has anyone heard how that has worked out for the Dems? Pretty darn good, I imagine.
Been reading Thomas Frank, eh? :cool:
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No time is too soon to learn from history. Those who do not are doomed to repeat it.

We must learn to chew gum and walk at the same time.
This seems to happen every time the authoritarian right gains influence over a disaffected demographic. We saw the same thing happen in several European countries a century ago. We're seeing the same march to the right today, in Poland, Hungary, Turkey, & al, with growing authoritarian movements in several other countries.
But, of course, It can't happen here...:rolleyes:
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My problem with that stance is it's akin to talking about how to construct more fireproof houses while you are inside trying to evacuate the house on fire.

Like, maybe we should focus on the literal fascists instead of diverting attention and blaming liberals for it? Maybe the fascists are 110% responsible for throwing in behind facsism.

Edit: we can learn about it all we want, but maybe after we condemn fascism and the riot ends. The lack of condeming facsism and instead blaming liberals for far-right fascist is very yikes and a common right-wing talking point.
Similar economic and social chaos in the 1930s, including a narrowly averted, right wing, military coup in the US

Europe continued moving Right; the US thwarted the coup and remained on a leftward tack.
Didn't work out well for Europe.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This seems to happen every time the authoritarian right gains influence over a disaffected demographic. We saw the same thing happen in several European countries a century ago. We're seeing the same march to the right today, in Poland, Hungary, Turkey, & al, with growing authoritarian movements in several other countries.
But, of course, It can't happen here...:rolleyes:

That's why it's so vitally important that the liberal left do everything it can to help elevate this disaffected demographic and raise the standard of living across the board. The Democrats have made some serious mistakes over the years. They supported NAFTA and abandoned the working classes. They jumped on the Republicans' War on Drugs bandwagon (both the Clinton and Obama administrations came out against legalization). They made absolutely zero impact on the aggressive and militaristic foreign policies implemented by previous administrations; all they did was continue the status quo. Obamacare was another major mistake; they should have pushed for nothing less than socialized medicine across the board.

I believe a major factor underlying all of this is fear. Fear of the future, fear of impoverishment, fear of a changing world, fear of crime, fear of terrorism, fear of escalating tensions with China and Russia, fear of global thermonuclear war, fear of communism, fear of racism, fear of COVID, fear of Trump, fear of Biden, fear of Kamala, fear of AOC, fear of BLM, and many other things. The fear is what feeds the tensions and the hostile rhetoric.

FDR said "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." This is the kind of statesmanship and leadership the people need right now, not more incendiary talk.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You can't chew gum and walk at the same time is what you seem to be saying.

I didn't see any chewing bubble gum is what I'm saying; perhaps it was in another thread? I personally qualify when I start walking that yes, there is bubble gum in my mouth that I am indeed chewing. It makes it harder for facists to take what I'm saying out of context.

Also, if we are to learn from history maybe we should focus less on blaming the center-right corperatists and realize that the entire foundation of American society is based on racism and colonialism. We should abolish the two party system and adopt preferential voting and multi party system as well, as an eventual goal.

As far as the chewing gum I'd like to point out that since my last post I've learned they planned to execute Mike Pence and capture several members of the Senate; after the governor's attempted kidnapping some time ago too it seems Trumpism is not that far off from Neo-Nazism, but that's what us anti-fascists, particualrly ones belonging to marginalized minority groups have been saying for ages. While white cishet men largely escape the heirarchal intersecting systems of oppression and only had a brunt of economic stress that is largely used to justify blatant racism, those of us who are disabled, queer, or bipoc have been through much worse and know the signs and have been trying to tell America what was going to happen since before he was nominated by the GOP and the flock has come home to roost finally.

I mean, they are already promising to "return" on Biden's inauguration.

So sure, I can walk, but we got a pretty big wad of bubble gum to chew along the way. And maybe a Nazi or 2 to deal with along the way on the sidewalk.
 

Kapalika

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That's why it's so vitally important that the liberal left do everything it can to help elevate this disaffected demographic and raise the standard of living across the board.
...
FDR said "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself." This is the kind of statesmanship and leadership the people need right now, not more incendiary talk.

Part of the problem has been the liberal left is in America effectively centrists. I guess I would be considered "left of liberal". What you said though does kind of give me the vibe of saying "x is good for the economy" when such arguements usually center around white middle class concerns.

The entire socio-economic system is rigged. That said, it is true that the way to truly raise the standard of living for everyone would be policies that migitate, reverse and make up for the historic marganlization of many peoples and demographic groups, but that requires social change as well. That requires dismantling institutional racism, classism, ect, the whole thing. Ya, the democrats abandoned the white working class and takes bipoc and queer votes for granted, but I don't think the solution is in them anyway. This whole system wouldn't be this severe IMO if Americans had reformed the 2 party system into a multi-party preferential system. It can be done, it just takes the will of the American people to make it so.

I actually would be in favor of America making voting *mandatory* as well as make it stupidly easy to vote, along with that multi-party, preferential voting. Talking with people in other countries where this is a thing, it seems to work really well for them.
 
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