California burger flippers are soon to be making 20 bucks an hour under minimum wage law.

[Shadow Wolf]

"Artificially low prices" assumes that without
welfare, the wages would be higher.
I'm highly skeptical. Evidence for this?

Also, Europe's high prices cause trouble.

Working poor | European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions

www.eurofound.europa.eu

Nothing's perfect, but subsidies (aka corporate welfare) are a part of the reason prices are low. We're even ok with tipped work as a society because we decided it's ok and acceptable for the customer to subsidize the obscenely low wages offered to waitresses/waiters by their employer. Prices are lower, but not really when you're expected to pay more at the end.

 

[Revoltingest]

Nothing's perfect, but subsidies (aka corporate welfare) are a part of the reason prices are low.

What do you consider to be subsidies?

We're even ok with tipped work as a society because we decided it's ok and acceptable for the customer to subsidize the obscenely low wages offered to waitresses/waiters by their employer.

The low wage & tip system is something
that evolved over time. It's not simple.
Eateries have tried to end it, but customers
didn't cooperate enuf.
I'd like to see it end, but I've yet to eat in
anyplace that tried to ditch it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wasn't speaking of generalities and didn't ask for them, so why did you answer with them?

Heh... I didn't ask you to give an application form listing the qualifications that would make you feel like we're worthy to post, but we all get to do our own thing.

If we could dictate to each other how this conversation should go, your opening post would have been very different.

If you own a business and advocate for compulsory minimum-wage increases, tell us about your business. If not, why are you presuming to tell business owners anything?

Because it sure seems like I know more than you.

You say you're a business owner; I have no way of confirming, but I'll assume that's true... but your rants have come across as pretty ignorant.

As for me, I've had a sole proprietorship (with no employees but me) and I manage a division; while I don't set the pay grid, I'm responsible for budget control for a ~$10 million annual budget.

... but since I'm not the company owner, none of that matters, right? You self-centeredly think that your narrow perspective is the only one that's relevant.

I was paid minimum wage briefly back when I was 12. I didn't have a family then.

Then it seems to me that you don't have the necessary experience to say that expecting an adult with a family to live off a full time minimum wage job is okay.

... or does your whole "any knowledge except for direct lived experience of this specific thing is worthless" approach only apply when it suits you?

I worked for that same company until I was 19, and when I left was being paid probably double minimum wage. I honestly don't remember; I didn't have any real obligations back then and was just having a good time, so I didn't think all that much about what was minimum wage, or whether or not I was making it.

That's the only time in my life I've made minimum wage. And unless I owned a home free and clear and my kids were grown and gone, I would not attempt to support a family on a single minimum wage.

How many employees do you have now who are trying to support a family on minimum wage?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Are you saying employees aren't actual slaves? Because by several metrics, if you ask me, they are just that—slaves. Some are just better-paid slaves. But I know that's not the question you were asking. So carry on with Revoltingest.

Which metrics?

 

[Stevicus]

Eateries have tried to end it, but customers
didn't cooperate enuf.
I'd like to see it end, but I've yet to eat in
anyplace that ditched it.

Some eateries encourage it and even tack on a gratuity automatically without even asking the customer. This happened at a Carl's Jr. I visited. I noticed they added a $2.00 gratuity without asking me or telling me that they were adding it. I've seen other complaints about that from people who had gratuities added automatically, as if it was a mandatory thing, like sales tax or cover charge.

It seems if they have to charge extra to pay their employees better wages, then the customer is either going to pay in higher prices or in tips, so it probably works out the same, cost-wise.

It does seem kind of arbitrary, though, considering that some jobs are tipped and others aren't. People don't tip the greeters at Walmart or the people who stock the shelves. The guys who service and sanitize port-a-potties don't get tips.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This is good. Now, how much of the extra do you give this new hire so that you can don the "generous and good employer" badge instead of the "greedy and unethical employer" badge? 100% of the extra this person helps you bring in? 50%? 10%?

Why would an employee's salary only be a function of the employer's ability (or willingness) to pay?

You just complained about people looking only at half of the balance sheet; well, you're doing that with your employees if you don't consider the actual value of their labour or their ability to afford a reasonable standard of living or the necessities of life.

In a truly free market, salary would be negotiated between the employer and the worker; however, there are market distortions that tend to make these negotiations inequitable... not necessarily through any fault of the employer, but through the inherent dynamics of the situation (e.g. very different BATNAs). Measures like unionization and collective bargaining rights help to restore the balance to something more equitable, but minimum wage laws are generally also needed to help correct these market distortions, especially since unionization rates tend to be low in industries that pay minimum wage.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Some eateries encourage it and even tack on a gratuity automatically without even asking the customer. This happened at a Carl's Jr. I visited. I noticed they added a $2.00 gratuity without asking me or telling me that they were adding it. I've seen other complaints about that from people who had gratuities added automatically, as if it was a mandatory thing, like sales tax or cover charge.

It seems if they have to charge extra to pay their employees better wages, then the customer is either going to pay in higher prices or in tips, so it probably works out the same, cost-wise.

It does seem kind of arbitrary, though, considering that some jobs are tipped and others aren't. People don't tip the greeters at Walmart or the people who stock the shelves. The guys who service and sanitize port-a-potties don't get tips.

I think it would be interesting if some precedent-setting court case ends up establishing that:

1. Tips are a part of the employee's compensation from their employer, and
2. Because of that, employers are required to make sure tips don't break laws around employee compensation.

A business owner could get in a lot of trouble if their employees' race or reluctance to flirt with customers was a factor in their base pay. It would have interesting implications if some court ruled that business owners with tipped employees were responsible for ensuring that their employees' total compensation was equitable.

 

[metis]

You're making it sound like he doesn't deal with a balance sheet and that the money he pays has no opportunity cost. So yeah, I'm calling that bluff.

I never said nor implied that the "balance sheet" wasn't important, and also I'm not "bluffing". How employers treat their employees is variable, and you should know that. And it seems you are all too willing to jump to conclusions without asking first.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

@Unfettered - I hope you realize that minimum wage increases are being driven by cost of living increases, right?

This isn't a matter of politicians trying to squeeze small business owners as much as they can; it's a response to things like, for instance, massive residential rent increases over the past few years.

... so why not focus your anger on the factors that make the minimum wage increase necessary? For instance, if California had better rent control, the minimum wage increase probably wouldn't have needed to be as large as it was. Do you agree?

 

[Revoltingest]

This isn't a matter of politicians trying to squeeze small business owners as much as they can; it's a response to things like, for instance, massive residential rent increases over the past few years.

Due in part to politicians' massive increases in property taxes.
Another part of rent increases has been regulatory restrictions
& increased fees for development.

 

[Unfettered]

Heh... I didn't ask you to give an application form listing the qualifications that would make you feel like we're worthy to post, but we all get to do our own thing.

You are correct; we each get to do our own thing. What we're discussing here in this thread is people trying to do other peoples' things. My 10-point post was to take the conversation from the merry-go-round of the hypothetical to the brick wall of reality. No on has been shut down. No one is being silenced.

If we could dictate to each other how this conversation should go, your opening post would have been very different.

This thread exists only because people are trying to dictate to others how their businesses should go.

Because it sure seems like I know more than you.

I'm sure you do. But value isn't found in how much we know, but whether or not we use what we know appropriately. And I admit openly that I don't place much value in people not minding their own business. Nor do I consider those persons, in that thing, wise, no matter how much knowledge they've acquired.

You say you're a business owner; I have no way of confirming, but I'll assume that's true... but your rants have come across as pretty ignorant.

I couldn't say the same about you, or any other poster? Maybe we can focus on the substance?

As for me, I've had a sole proprietorship (with no employees but me) and I manage a division; while I don't set the pay grid, I'm responsible for budget control for a ~$10 million annual budget.

... but since I'm not the company owner, none of that matters, right? You self-centeredly think that your narrow perspective is the only one that's relevant.

I'll let you answer. If you, who has been authorized by the ownership to control the company's budget (does control = set?), were to demand that the business increase wages to meet some arbitrary ethical standard of yours, irrespective of any other consideration—or you were to implement such unilaterally—how long do you think you'd remain in control of the budget?

Again, my 10-point list is to ground the conversation in reality. And the reality is that there are a whole lot of people presuming to tell business owners how to run their businesses. Yeah, I think that's wrong. I think that's ridiculous (worthy of ridicule). My approach is to expose the idea to the realities of business. Why is that a bad approach?

Then it seems to me that you don't have the necessary experience to say that expecting an adult with a family to live off a full time minimum wage job is okay.

Why do you assume I expect an adult with a family to live off a full-time minimum wage job? I don't.

... or does your whole "any knowledge except for direct lived experience of this specific thing is worthless" approach only apply when it suits you?

No, I proceed from the position of "if you can't exercise enough self-discipline and courtesy to not inject yourself into someone else's business, I'm doing you, and society, a favor by placing a check on your presumptuousness."

How many employees do you have now who are trying to support a family on minimum wage?

None. I have only ever offered partnership entry into my business. Full partnership, which is a very good offer, considering entrants would be owners but would still have to be carried by the business for some time while they get up to speed.

I've offered partnership to nine different persons in sixteen years, each of whom had approached me for a wage job. Seven declined outright; they didn't want ownership, just to check in and check out every day for a paycheck. Good for them; they knew what they wanted.

Two accepted the offer (at different times). One lasted a single day, no joke. Decided it just wasn't his thing; went back to working at the retail store he'd quit a few weeks before approaching me (he quit because he felt like they were treating him poorly; I guess he decided the treatment was tolerable, after all). That was about five years ago; he 's now an assistant manager in that store. Good for him.

The other partner lasted 6 months; he left to start his own business (entirely different industry). He said that what he learned working as a business owner with me was exactly what he needed to inspire in him confidence to do what he'd really wanted to do before he came on with me. His new business is growing slowly, but steadily. I think he'll do great. Good for him.

So no employees.

 

[Unfettered]

Which metrics?

Any metric related to sovereignty over any area of one's life. If someone else controls where you are, when you are there, what you do when you're there, what portion of the fruits of your labor you may keep, etc., you're a slave.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are correct; we each get to do our own thing. What we're discussing here in this thread is people trying to do other peoples' things. My 10-point post was to take the conversation from the merry-go-round of the hypothetical to the brick wall of reality. No on has been shut down. No one is being silenced.

This thread exists only because people are trying to dictate to others how their businesses should go.

I'm sure you do. But value isn't found in how much we know, but whether or not we use what we know appropriately. And I admit openly that I don't place much value in people not minding their own business. Nor do I consider those persons, in that thing, wise, no matter how much knowledge they've acquired.

I couldn't say the same about you, or any other poster? Maybe we can focus on the substance?

I'll let you answer. If you, who has been authorized by the ownership to control the company's budget (does control = set?), were to demand that the business increase wages to meet some arbitrary ethical standard of yours, irrespective of any other consideration—or you were to implement such unilaterally—how long do you think you'd remain in control of the budget?

Again, my 10-point list is to ground the conversation in reality. And the reality is that there are a whole lot of people presuming to tell business owners how to run their businesses. Yeah, I think that's wrong. I think that's ridiculous (worthy of ridicule). My approach is to expose the idea to the realities of business. Why is that a bad approach?

Why do you assume I expect an adult with a family to live of a full-time minimum wage job? I don't.

No, I proceed from the position of "if you can't exercise enough self-discipline and courtesy to not inject yourself into someone else's business, I'm doing you, and society, a favor by placing a check on your presumptuousness."

None. I have only ever offered partnership entry into my business. Full partnership, which is a very good offer, considering entrants would be owners but would still have to be carried by the business for some time while they get up to speed.

I've offered partnership to nine different persons in sixteen years, each of whom had approached me for a wage job. Seven declined outright; they didn't want ownership, just to check in and check out every day for a paycheck. Good for them; they knew what they wanted.

Two accepted the offer (at different times). One lasted a single day, no joke. Decided it just wasn't his thing; went back to working at the retail store he'd quit a few weeks before approaching me (he quit because he felt like they were treating him poorly; I guess he decided the treatment was tolerable, after all). That was about five years ago; he 's now an assistant manager in that store. Good for him.

The other partner lasted 6 months; he left to start his own business (entirely different industry). He said that what he learned working as a business owner with me was exactly what he needed to inspire in him confidence to do what he'd really wanted to do before he came on with me. His new business is growing slowly, but steadily. I think he'll do great. Good for him.

So no employees.

Ha! So you don't meet your own criteria for being qualified to talk about this?

Why did you bother to post?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Any metric related to sovereignty over any area of one's life. If someone else controls where you are, when you are there, what you do when you're there, what portion of the fruits of your labor you may keep, etc., you're a slave.

I think this is a wonky definition of slavery, but it sounds like you do recognize that the relationship between an employer and employee can be very asymmetrical.

... but you don't understand the need for regulation to help restore a more reasonable balance?

 

[Unfettered]

Why would an employee's salary only be a function of the employer's ability (or willingness) to pay?

You just complained about people looking only at half of the balance sheet; well, you're doing that with your employees if you don't consider the actual value of their labour or their ability to afford a reasonable standard of living or the necessities of life.

LOL, I'm not the one putting my nose in other peoples' business here. Not sure why you're assuming I advocate for anything other than what I've advocated for. I expect employers and employees to negotiate an arrangement they each agree to. I make no assumptions. Your "counter" has nothing to do with me or anything I've said.

In a truly free market, salary would be negotiated between the employer and the worker; however, there are market distortions that tend to make these negotiations inequitable...

I agree! We are all of us slaves, honestly. Some of us want to challenge the slave system; others work to perpetuate it. Minimum-wage advocates argue within the slave system—to perpetuate it. They think they're being moral, but they're supporting immorality.

not necessarily through any fault of the employer, but through the inherent dynamics of the situation (e.g. very different BATNAs). Measures like unionization and collective bargaining rights help to restore the balance to something more equitable

No, unions, like minimum-wage laws, operate within the slave system, and perpetuate it; they do not seek its dismantlement.

but minimum wage laws are generally also needed to help correct these market distortions, especially since unionization rates tend to be low in industries that pay minimum wage.

Again, the merry-go-round nature of these arguments exposes that they are all captured by a system of slavery. They all seek to right wrongs that are not righted by the things implemented. So we just go around and around.

 

[Unfettered]

I never said nor implied that the "balance sheet" wasn't important, and also I'm not "bluffing".

Your posts resisted calls to consider business factors. But since you're re-tracing, let's keep moving.

How employers treat their employees is variable, and you should know that.

I do know that. We are in agreement there.

And it seems you are all too willing to jump to conclusions without asking first.

I have asked for specifics. I get answered with generalities or hypotheticals. But I'll ask again: Does your son pay his employees more than his business can financially sustain?

 

[Unfettered]

Ha! So you don't meet your own criteria for being qualified to talk about this?

Why did you bother to post?

LOL, yes, I do meet my own criteria:

"I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us…"

"Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above…"

I do not advocate for minimum-wage increases. I respect the sovereignty of business owners over their businesses. But the very minute I change my mind about that, you'll be correct; I'll not meet the criteria, and I'll have nothing to say.

 

[PureX]

LOL, yes, I do meet my own criteria:

"I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us…"

"Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above…"

I do not advocate for minimum-wage increases. I respect the sovereignty of business owners over their businesses. But the very minute I change my mind about that, you'll be correct; I'll not meet the criteria, and I'll have nothing to say.

What a load of whooey!

All hail the mighty business owners! Let's all bow and scrape our forheads in the dirt before the majesty of their glorious greed and selfishness!

Good Lord!

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

LOL, yes, I do meet my own criteria:

"I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us…"

"Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above…"

I do not advocate for minimum-wage increases. I respect the sovereignty of business owners over their businesses. But the very minute I change my mind about that, you'll be correct; I'll not meet the criteria, and I'll have nothing to say.

So... when talking about where the minimum wage ought to be:

- if you think it should go up, you need direct lived experience as a business owner.

- if you think it should stay the same or go down, all you need is a pulse.

Hilarious.

 

[Unfettered]

I think this is a wonky definition of slavery,

The question is not whether or not it's a wonky definition, but whether or not it conforms to reality. Does it? If someone else controls where you go, when you go there, when you leave, what you do while you're there, how much you keep of what you produce…are you not a slave to that person?

but it sounds like you do recognize that the relationship between an employer and employee can be very asymmetrical.

Most definitely. And while things tend toward asymmetry, they may also approach symmetry. That is also possible. Clearly, my understanding has led me down a path of high irregularity—absolute symmetry…ownership and partnership. And yet this disqualifies me, in the minds of some, from having business acumen (because I don't conform to the norm of the master/slave relationship in order to enrich myself). And I guess they're not wrong. I am a poor master of slaves.

... but you don't understand the need for regulation to help restore a more reasonable balance?

I can't answer that question until I know you and I are standing on the same foundation of understanding. So I must ask, where, precisely, do you believe the imbalance comes from? What root-level mechanism places one person in a position where he must—not "may," but must—go to another person to ask for a "job"? What fundamental condition precludes that person from simply "subsisting on his own"?