California burger flippers are soon to be making 20 bucks an hour under minimum wage law.

[Pogo]

Without extensive and very heavy market intervention prices won't go down. And they shouldn't go down. Our artificially low prices have caused enough destruction as it is. It's high time we all pay up, including consumers (who are going to have to pay fair costs for fair businesses) and employers (who are going to have to pay more and end tax payers subsidizing low wages).

There is actually a rather often morally despicable owner who oddly had an interesting solution to some of our problems.
Henry Ford thought that it might be a good idea to pay his employees enough to afford his products.
With a little help from unions it is still working for many.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

There is actually a rather often morally despicable owner who oddly had an interesting solution to some of our problems.
Henry Ford thought that it might be a good idea to pay his employees enough to afford his products.
With a little help from unions it is still working for many.

Yeah, that is one good idea he had. It helps connect people to their labor, and paying enough to afford such a luxury item was good for all, including Ford who ended up getting some of that money back anyways.
I am often told it was done for cynical reasons, such as ensuring a better product because people would do a better job if it might be their car that breaks. But, regardless, I read of a restaurant that found it payiny off amd working out for the better when they started paying staff enough to afford to eat there.

 

[Pogo]

Yeah, that is one good idea he had. It helps connect people to their labor, and paying enough to afford such a luxury item was good for all, including Ford who ended up getting some of that money back anyways.
I am often told it was done for cynical reasons, such as ensuring a better product because people would do a better job if it might be their car that breaks. But, regardless, I read of a restaurant that found it payiny off amd working out for the better when they started paying staff enough to afford to eat there.

I am amazed at the number of people who are so lacking in confidence in their own worth that they think it to their relative advantage to push others down rather than let others lift them up.
On the other hand, it was Ronny Rayguns that popularized this silly idea through education cuts and then the horses**t theory.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do you believe that the 1% own
the individual fast food joints?

You tell me.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No they own the people that own the corporate fast food joints.

Exactly which is why most are franchises and not true independent businesses.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Without extensive and very heavy market intervention prices won't go down. And they shouldn't go down. Our artificially low prices have caused enough destruction as it is. It's high time we all pay up, including consumers (who are going to have to pay fair costs for fair businesses) and employers (who are going to have to pay more and end tax payers subsidizing low wages).

There is absolutely no justifiable reason prices should be this high.

What is bread going to be in the next several decades? 10 bucks a loaf just for the hell of it?

 

[Revoltingest]

No they own the people that own the corporate fast food joints.

What of the small franchisees?
It seems unfair to base punitive policy on the
little guys because of loathing for the big guys.

 

[Revoltingest]

Exactly which is why most are franchises and not true independent businesses.

They are independently owned & run.
They're just tied to the franchisor for supplies
& operating standards. If you hurt their eatery,
you hurt a small business owner.

 

[Revoltingest]

You tell me.

I can't tell you what you believe.

 

[fantome profane]

They are independently owned & run.
They're just tied to the franchisor for supplies
& operating standards. If you hurt their eatery,
you hurt a small business owner.

A small business, any small business, should be able to pay their employees a living wage. And if they can't perhaps that can be dealt with in a different way, tax rebates, or loan interest forgiveness or something along those lines. But paying their employees less than a living wage is never the right solution.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

If a company can't not make a profit with this law they will eather automate, close their businesses, or move out of state.
Then where will the "more people" find any job? That is one they are willing to take.

Can you give any examples of specific companies that:

- are currently profitable,
- won't be profitable at the new minimum wage, and
- wouldn't be considering automation or closure even if the minimum wage stayed low?

 

[Revoltingest]

A small business, any small business, should be able to pay their employees a living wage.

"Should be" is a tricky requirement.
Every change affects everything else.
A single business can't just up every employee's
pay, lest it fail because it can't compete.

When I was in high school working in a pizzeria,
paying me a living wage would be ridiculous.
I was a lousy employee...not worth much.
But I needed some money & the experience.

And if they can't perhaps that can be dealt with in a different way, tax rebates, or loan interest forgiveness or something along those lines. But paying their employees less than a living wage is never the right solution.

The best solution is for government to stay out
of micro-managing business by simply providing
all the UBI. It's the most libertarian solution, &
also the most comprehensively fair.
Will it be costly? You betcha!
But I'd rather my tax dollars go there, than buy
bombs to drop on "human animals" in Gaza.

 

[Wirey]

Can you give any examples of specific companies that:

- are currently profitable,
- won't be profitable at the new minimum wage, and
- wouldn't be considering automation or closure even if the minimum wage stayed low?

Nobody can. If a company that pays it's employees as little as is legally possible could make more on their starved children, a lot of places would look a lot skinnier.

If your company requires humans to suffer, and harm to come to families just so it can stay open, that company needs to close.

 

[Unfettered]

The business ignorance on display here is staggering.

I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us

1. how many businesses they've owned that had more than just non-family employees
2. how many non-family employees they had on average, annually, in the most successful of those businesses
3. the average annual profit margin of the business
4. what percentage of annual expenses was annual payroll
5. what percentage of payroll went to the owner
6. what percentage of annual net profit owner draws accounted for
7. how many continuous years the business operated
8. how many of those years were profitable
9. the profit margin of the last three years of business operation, and
10. under what circumstances you got out of that business (unless you're still running it).

Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above—that person I will take seriously in this discussion, in spite of my disagreement with the morality or sensibleness of extraneous, compulsory minimum wage increases.

Other advocates of minimum wage increases (those who have never owned a business)…I would compare to back seat drivers, who presume to make decisions from a vantage point that makes their demands or advocacy very dangerous for everyone—those inside the car, as well as those in traffic.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The business ignorance on display here is staggering.

I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us

1. how many businesses they've owned that had more than just non-family employees
2. how many non-family employees they had on average, annually, in the most successful of those businesses
3. the average annual profit margin of the business
4. what percentage of annual expenses was annual payroll
5. what percentage of payroll went to the owner
6. what percentage of annual net profit owner draws accounted for
7. how many continuous years the business operated
8. how many of those years were profitable
9. the profit margin of the last three years of business operation, and
10. under what circumstances you got out of that business (unless you're still running it).

Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above—that person I will take seriously in this discussion, in spite of my disagreement with the morality or sensibleness of extraneous, compulsory minimum wage increases.

Other advocates of minimum wage increases (those who have never owned a business)…I would compare to back seat drivers, who presume to make decisions from a vantage point that make their demands or advocacy very dangerous for everyone—those inside the car, as well as those in traffic.

The entitlement here is something else.

If your employees' wages are so low that your employees qualify for social assistance, then your business is being subsidized by taxpayers and every taxpayer is entitled to a say in how you do business.

If you don't feel like lowering yourself to listen to voices you feel are unqualified, then pay your employees enough that they don't need government supports to work for you.

BTW, since you're so big into qualifications, please tell us how many years you supported your family with a minimum wage job.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The business ignorance on display here is staggering.

I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us

1. how many businesses they've owned that had more than just non-family employees
2. how many non-family employees they had on average, annually, in the most successful of those businesses
3. the average annual profit margin of the business
4. what percentage of annual expenses was annual payroll
5. what percentage of payroll went to the owner
6. what percentage of annual net profit owner draws accounted for
7. how many continuous years the business operated
8. how many of those years were profitable
9. the profit margin of the last three years of business operation, and
10. under what circumstances you got out of that business (unless you're still running it).

Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above—that person I will take seriously in this discussion, in spite of my disagreement with the morality or sensibleness of extraneous, compulsory minimum wage increases.

Other advocates of minimum wage increases (those who have never owned a business)…I would compare to back seat drivers, who presume to make decisions from a vantage point that make their demands or advocacy very dangerous for everyone—those inside the car, as well as those in traffic.

I used to think that way but not anymore.

Let's put it in the simplest terms. Without workers you will be nothing , and they have every right to share in the success of a business as much as the owner does.

If the owner can't afford to pay its employees a proper living wage, then they shouldn't even be in business in the first place.

 

[Wirey]

The business ignorance on display here is staggering.

I invite all those who advocate for minimum-wage increases to share with us

1. how many businesses they've owned that had more than just non-family employees
2. how many non-family employees they had on average, annually, in the most successful of those businesses
3. the average annual profit margin of the business
4. what percentage of annual expenses was annual payroll
5. what percentage of payroll went to the owner
6. what percentage of annual net profit owner draws accounted for
7. how many continuous years the business operated
8. how many of those years were profitable
9. the profit margin of the last three years of business operation, and
10. under what circumstances you got out of that business (unless you're still running it).

Any advocate of minimum wage increases who is, or has been, a business owner, and who will answer the few business-health questions submitted above—that person I will take seriously in this discussion, in spite of my disagreement with the morality or sensibleness of extraneous, compulsory minimum wage increases.

Other advocates of minimum wage increases (those who have never owned a business)…I would compare to back seat drivers, who presume to make decisions from a vantage point that make their demands or advocacy very dangerous for everyone—those inside the car, as well as those in traffic.

I own a business now, and I've owned a different one before. Your questions display a complete lack of knowledge about running a business. I would suggest that you educate yourself a little, and try again, but for the record, the lowest paid person in my office has no need to work a second job to pay their bills. Of the eight employees I have at present, two have spouses who don't work, and yet they can eat. I pay myself sufficiently well that I am a long way from starving.

When you discuss "profit margin", you give yourself away as untrained in business. Profit margin in business is merely the amount of sales the company keeps. That number is incredibly plastic at tax time, and thus meaningless. A better measure is how fast the business grows. A stagnant business is a dead business. I intend to hire two more people this spring, and maybe two more in the fall.

 

[metis]

Those companies are making profits, along with runaway executive pay amd bonuses that have skyrocketed their income over the oast several decades while everybody else has stagnated.

Exactly. And increased wages tends to "raise all ships" as people spend most of what they earn. If one place closes its business, most assuredly another will replace it.

 

[Unfettered]

I own a business now, and I've owned a different one before. Your questions display a complete lack of knowledge about running a business. I would suggest that you educate yourself a little, and try again

Thank you, but I am a business owner since 2007. So I accept your informed difference of opinion as merely that—an informed difference of opinion.

but for the record, the lowest paid person in my office has no need to work a second job to pay their bills. Of the eight employees I have at present, two have spouses who don't work, and yet they can eat. I pay myself sufficiently well that I am a long way from starving.

Excellent. Love to hear it.

When you discuss "profit margin", you give yourself away as untrained in business. Profit margin in business is merely the amount of sales the company keeps. That number is incredibly plastic at tax time, and thus meaningless. A better measure is how fast the business grows. A stagnant business is a dead business. I intend to hire two more people this spring, and maybe two more in the fall.

I presented 10 questions, not one. I did not single out profit margin as you have. So you've straw-manned its importance.

Either way, would you be willing to answer all the questions I presented, relative to your business? You'll note that I've only asked for percentages, not dollar amounts. It shouldn't expose any critical business information to disclose what I asked for. But it would allow for a real-world analysis of the minimum-wage arguments being made here.

As an aside, your business appears to be insulted from minimum-wage considerations entirely, making it very comfortable for you to be indifferent to minimum wage laws.

 

[Unfettered]

I used to think that way but not anymore.

Let's put it in the simplest terms. Without workers you will be nothing , and they have every right to share in the success of a business as much as the owner does.

If the owner can't afford to pay its employees a proper living wage, then they shouldn't even be in business in the first place.

Again, these kinds of statement mean little. What has substance is the real world. If you own a business and advocate for compulsory minimum-wage increases, tell us about your business.