Can a JW please answer this one question, pretty please?

[SA Huguenot]

When I was still a young man, here in the 80's, I totally lost any belief in God.
I did however decide to try to learn from all religions and never turned anyone away when they by accident, or by visits crossed my path.
Well, I was visited by many religious sects, but in this thread we will discuss a question I asked the Watchtower Tract and Bible society, or as better known, the Jehovah Witnesses.
By accident I stay opposite the biggest printing operations in the World, the one in South Africa, Roodepoort.

The Question:
What of a person goes to heaven?
As I went to Bible studies with JW's, I learned the following "pillars of JW" if I may call it as such.
1. No human has a Spirit living within themself. We are only Flesh and Blood, with a breath of life that keeps us alive like a clockwork. This breath of life returns to God when we die, but it is not a"Spirit" in the sense of an immortal person.
2. No Flesh and Blood can enter heaven. this is impossible, but they remain in the grave.
3. There are 2 types of people in the ressurection, the one typw is 144000 elect that will go to heaven, and the rest are JW's who will live on the Earth for a thousand years.

My question is, If these ellect dont have a living immortal spirit living in their bodies, what will go to heaven?
Now, JW's tried to answer me numerous times as they came knocking on my door, and every time they told me that they will come back to me and they will answer my question.
many so called "Elders" did visit me, and the conversation goes like this.

• Look, you will not go to heaven, you will stay here on earth in the milenium.
• But I dont want to keep on living for a mere 1 000 years of eternity, I want it all, I want to live with God in heaven!
• Only the Ellect 144000 will go there.
• OK, so what of them will go to heaven? I mean, their Flesh and Blood is in the grave, and with no Spirit, what goes to heaven?
• No, God will recreate them as they were here on earth when they were living!
• Wait, are you telling that God will make some other beings representing His followers he had here on Earth?
• No, God will take the memories of these people, and that is what will enter heaven!
• OK, so the memories is immortal and my mind will then get a new body, this means that inside of me I have an immortal mind, can we not say this is the Spirit that can not die but after death will continue to live!
• No, this is not what I say, We definately do not have anything inside of us that is immortal.
• OK, so what of me sitting here NOW will go to heaven? I mean, If there is at least a single cell, or hair that will go to God, and I will be concious about attaining salvation, why bother? If there is nothing of me here on Earth that will go to heaven, why even worship God? I can just as well start to steal and kill to have a better life while I am here!
• Can I get someone to answer you? We have excelent Bible teachers that knows mort than I.
• Please do.

So, lets' see if I can get an answer after +- 40 years?

 

[Deeje]

Wow...its taken 40 years to get an answer?

Well here goes.....

The Question:
What of a person goes to heaven?
As I went to Bible studies with JW's, I learned the following "pillars of JW" if I may call it as such.
1. No human has a Spirit living within themself. We are only Flesh and Blood, with a breath of life that keeps us alive like a clockwork. This breath of life returns to God when we die, but it is not a"Spirit" in the sense of an immortal person.
2. No Flesh and Blood can enter heaven. this is impossible, but they remain in the grave.
3. There are 2 types of people in the ressurection, the one typw is 144000 elect that will go to heaven, and the rest are JW's who will live on the Earth for a thousand years.

My question is, If these ellect dont have a living immortal spirit living in their bodies, what will go to heaven?

Paul answered this quite simply....
If you understand the resurrection, then it means a return to life. One who was dead is raised to life again.....like Lazarus for example. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was? In heaven? The spirit realm? anywhere? Nope. Jesus said Lazarus was "sleeping". (John 11:11-14) This is in agreement with the Jewish belief that the dead were unconscious, inactive in "sheol" (the grave), awaiting a resurrection. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10)

Paul wrote at 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16.....
"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first." (ESV)

So what is Paul saying about the dead? They "sleep", just as Jesus said about Lazarus. There is no resurrection of anyone until Christ's return. When Christ was to come again, he would raise those of the elect "first". These, Paul said would be raised in the same kind of body that Jesus was...a spiritual body.

"It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (1 Cor 15:44-45)

Now is that hard to understand? Seriously? The only thing that gets in the way of the truth is the false assumption that we have an immortal soul. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Now, JW's tried to answer me numerous times as they came knocking on my door, and every time they told me that they will come back to me and they will answer my question.
many so called "Elders" did visit me, and the conversation goes like this.

• Look, you will not go to heaven, you will stay here on earth in the milenium.
• But I dont want to keep on living for a mere 1 000 years of eternity, I want it all, I want to live with God in heaven!
• Only the Ellect 144000 will go there.
• OK, so what of them will go to heaven? I mean, their Flesh and Blood is in the grave, and with no Spirit, what goes to heaven?
• No, God will recreate them as they were here on earth when they were living!
• Wait, are you telling that God will make some other beings representing His followers he had here on Earth?
• No, God will take the memories of these people, and that is what will enter heaven!
• OK, so the memories is immortal and my mind will then get a new body, this means that inside of me I have an immortal mind, can we not say this is the Spirit that can not die but after death will continue to live!
• No, this is not what I say, We definately do not have anything inside of us that is immortal.
• OK, so what of me sitting here NOW will go to heaven? I mean, If there is at least a single cell, or hair that will go to God, and I will be concious about attaining salvation, why bother? If there is nothing of me here on Earth that will go to heaven, why even worship God? I can just as well start to steal and kill to have a better life while I am here!
• Can I get someone to answer you? We have excelent Bible teachers that knows mort than I.
• Please do.

So, lets' see if I can get an answer after +- 40 years?

What a joy to teach someone who doesn't want to know what God's word says. You want the Bible to say what you want to believe?....good luck with that. From your list here it is very apparent that you heard very little of what my brothers tried to teach you. I guess if you have your fingers in your ears that is not surprising.

No one can volunteer to go to heaven. Its not our choice. It is God who anoints the elect. He gives them a "heavenly calling" by his spirit. (Hebrews 3:1; Romans 8:16-17)

The resurrection takes place in two distinct stages as it mentions also in Revelation. Those chosen to rule with Christ in heaven (the 144,000) will be resurrected "first". (Revelation 20:6) Since this did not happen before Christ's return, then all had slept peacefully in their graves since the first century.

Once the Kingdom has "come" and the earth is cleansed, then Jesus will resurrect the dead who are still in their graves. (John 5:28-29) Jesus calls them out of their tombs, not from the spirit realm.
These will be subjects of the heavenly rulers. Those rulers are also priests, which mean that they needs sinners for whom to perform their priestly duties. No one who goes to heaven is still a sinner. Their sinful flesh is no more. Their resurrection to heavenly life is as glorious immortal spirit beings, like their Lord Jesus.

How does God know who all these people are so as to remember them all?

Isaiah 40:26...
“Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.
Who has created these things?

It is the One who brings out their army by number;
He calls them all by name."

Because of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power,
Not one of them is missing."

Imagine! How many stars are there in the millions of galaxies in the universe? Yet God remembers all their names.
If he can remember the names of billions of impersonal stars, would he have a problem remembering the personalities of all the humans who have lived and died on this small planet?....piece of cake. He simply recreates the whole person...memories and all. You think that the Creator can't do that?

The 1,000 years of Kingdom rule is to bring all redeemed mankind to the final test which will see satan briefly released from his prison to again tempt mankind into sin. (Revelation 20:1-3) Those who pass that final test will have their names written in the book of life permanently. They will remain on earth forever just as God purposed from the beginning. Everlasting life is not the same as immortality.

Try and read the scriptures very carefully so that you may cross those silly things off your list....OK?

 

[JJ50]

The JWs interpretation of the Bible is creepier than most and that is saying something!

 

[Jedster]

The JWs interpretation of the Bible is creepier than most and that is saying something!

I couldn't comment on the level of creepy, but at least they use correct modern understandable English, No 'thou's 'thee's etc.
& they don't denigrate the Hebrew Scripture by calling it 'The old testament', rather the 'Hebrew testament'.

 

[ecco]

Those who pass that final test will have their names written in the book of life permanently. They will remain on earth forever just as God purposed from the beginning. Everlasting life is not the same as immortality.

Wow! An eternity in heaven would get boring about after.000000000001% of eternity. That's enough time to visit every star and every planet and every everthing a gazillion times over.

I can't imagine being stuck on earth forever. After the first million or so years I'd be going stark raving mad.

How many times can one climb Mt Everest? Eighty-seven billion times? Then what? Climb it another eighty-seven billion times in another infinitesimally small percentage of forever?

If my name is written in the book of life permanently, I can't even commit suicide to end it all.

 

[JJ50]

I couldn't comment on the level of creepy, but at least they use correct modern understandable English, No 'thou's 'thee's etc.
& they don't denigrate the Hebrew Scripture by calling it 'The old testament', rather the 'Hebrew testament'.

Does it matter what it is called, most of the Bible is not credible anyway?

 

[The Reverend Bob]

The JWs interpretation of the Bible is creepier than most and that is saying something!

You should see mine.

 

[shmogie]

When I was still a young man, here in the 80's, I totally lost any belief in God.
I did however decide to try to learn from all religions and never turned anyone away when they by accident, or by visits crossed my path.
Well, I was visited by many religious sects, but in this thread we will discuss a question I asked the Watchtower Tract and Bible society, or as better known, the Jehovah Witnesses.
By accident I stay opposite the biggest printing operations in the World, the one in South Africa, Roodepoort.

The Question:
What of a person goes to heaven?
As I went to Bible studies with JW's, I learned the following "pillars of JW" if I may call it as such.
1. No human has a Spirit living within themself. We are only Flesh and Blood, with a breath of life that keeps us alive like a clockwork. This breath of life returns to God when we die, but it is not a"Spirit" in the sense of an immortal person.
2. No Flesh and Blood can enter heaven. this is impossible, but they remain in the grave.
3. There are 2 types of people in the ressurection, the one typw is 144000 elect that will go to heaven, and the rest are JW's who will live on the Earth for a thousand years.

My question is, If these ellect dont have a living immortal spirit living in their bodies, what will go to heaven?
Now, JW's tried to answer me numerous times as they came knocking on my door, and every time they told me that they will come back to me and they will answer my question.
many so called "Elders" did visit me, and the conversation goes like this.

• Look, you will not go to heaven, you will stay here on earth in the milenium.
• But I dont want to keep on living for a mere 1 000 years of eternity, I want it all, I want to live with God in heaven!
• Only the Ellect 144000 will go there.
• OK, so what of them will go to heaven? I mean, their Flesh and Blood is in the grave, and with no Spirit, what goes to heaven?
• No, God will recreate them as they were here on earth when they were living!
• Wait, are you telling that God will make some other beings representing His followers he had here on Earth?
• No, God will take the memories of these people, and that is what will enter heaven!
• OK, so the memories is immortal and my mind will then get a new body, this means that inside of me I have an immortal mind, can we not say this is the Spirit that can not die but after death will continue to live!
• No, this is not what I say, We definately do not have anything inside of us that is immortal.
• OK, so what of me sitting here NOW will go to heaven? I mean, If there is at least a single cell, or hair that will go to God, and I will be concious about attaining salvation, why bother? If there is nothing of me here on Earth that will go to heaven, why even worship God? I can just as well start to steal and kill to have a better life while I am here!
• Can I get someone to answer you? We have excelent Bible teachers that knows mort than I.
• Please do.

So, lets' see if I can get an answer after +- 40 years?

I am not a JW, but I have studied with them for years. I have become a nut they want to crack, and we have great times studying and disagreeing. I will try and answer your question from their prospective, yet it is a bootleg unauthorized answer, I might be wrong.

Nothing tangible of you will enter heaven. Your being essence,i.e. personality, memories will be ¨stored¨ by God to be returned to you at the resurrection. These things are information, not a physical part of you, your ¨mind¨ is not your brain. Consider these things as you on a disk to be put back into your ¨system¨ when it reboots.

The book of Revelation and other verses in other books make it clear that redeemed humanity will live on a recreated earth, as it originally was, and there will be no more death or dying and sin will be no more.

 

[The Reverend Bob]

I am not a JW, but I have studied with them for years. I have become a nut they want to crack, and we have great times studying and disagreeing. I will try and answer your question from their prospective, yet it is a bootleg unauthorized answer, I might be wrong.

Nothing tangible of you will enter heaven. Your being essence,i.e. personality, memories will be ¨stored¨ by God to be returned to you at the resurrection. These things are information, not a physical part of you, your ¨mind¨ is not your brain. Consider these things as you on a disk to be put back into your ¨system¨ when it reboots.

The book of Revelation and other verses in other books make it clear that redeemed humanity will live on a recreated earth, as it originally was, and there will be no more death or dying and sin will be no more.

Sort of like Total Recall

 

[Jedster]

Does it matter what it is called, most of the Bible is not credible anyway?

I agree. But I consider it good literature. It is only creepy when taken literally; same with lots of other books. (IMO)

However , your comment wasn't about credibility, it was about their version.
This was your comment:
The JWs interpretation of the Bible is creepier than most and that is saying something!

ye, I'm just nitpicking

 

[JJ50]

I agree. But I consider it good literature. It is only creepy when taken literally; same with lots of other books. (IMO)

However , your comment wasn't about credibility, it was about their version.
This was your comment:
The JWs interpretation of the Bible is creepier than most and that is saying something!

ye, I'm just nitpicking

I must admit I am rather prejudiced against the JW religion. In 1986, our adopted Down's syndrome son, who was a baby at the time, had to have a life saving blood transfusion. A day or two later a couple of JWs came to our door and I challenged them about their attitude to accepting blood from a donor. They told me our lad would have been better off dead rather than receiving blood from another person. As you can imagine I was disgusted by their attitude.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Wow! An eternity in heaven would get boring about after.000000000001% of eternity. That's enough time to visit every star and every planet and every everthing a gazillion times over.

I can't imagine being stuck on earth forever. After the first million or so years I'd be going stark raving mad.

How many times can one climb Mt Everest? Eighty-seven billion times? Then what? Climb it another eighty-seven billion times in another infinitesimally small percentage of forever?

If my name is written in the book of life permanently, I can't even commit suicide to end it all.

I wonder if the angels feel that way? And they can't procreate!
I'd never
get tired of meeting and getting to know the next generation of my progeny! I may have to transport to another human-inhabited planet to visit them , but by then, technology will have advanced. (Isaiah 54:13)

Oh, and yeah, you could kill yourself, you would not be immortal. Adam wasn't.

 

[Jedster]

I must admit I am rather prejudiced against the JW religion. In 1986, our adopted Down's syndrome son, who was a baby at the time, had to have a life saving blood transfusion. A day or two later a couple of JWs came to our door and I challenged them about their attitude to accepting blood from a donor. They told me our lad would have been better off dead rather than receiving blood from another person. As you can imagine I was disgusted by their attitude.

Callous people to say that.
I am glad your baby was saved.

 

[ecco]

The book of Revelation and other verses in other books make it clear that redeemed humanity will live on a recreated earth, as it originally was, and there will be no more death or dying and sin will be no more.

As I wrote earlier...

I can't imagine being stuck on earth forever. After the first million or so years I'd be going stark raving mad.

How many times can one climb Mt Everest? Eighty-seven billion times? Then what? Climb it another eighty-seven billion times in another infinitesimally small percentage of forever?

If my name is written in the book of life permanently, I can't even commit suicide to end it all.

 

[ecco]

Sort of like Total Recall

After a few million years: Sort of like Groundhog Day (the movie).

 

[ecco]

I wonder if the angels feel that way? And they can't procreate!
I'd never
get tired of meeting and getting to know the next generation of my progeny! I may have to transport to another human-inhabited planet , but by then, technology will have advanced.

According to JW you could not transport to another planet (see her quote below). You would be stuck on earth. How many times can you get a kiss from your auntie Jean before going stark raving mad?

Oh, and yeah, you could kill yourself, you would not be immortal. Adam wasn't.

That's not what Deeje said (my emphases)

Those who pass that final test will have their names written in the book of life permanently. They will remain on earth forever just as God purposed from the beginning.

 

[JJ50]

Callous people to say that.
I am glad your baby was saved.

So am I. He is now 34 and loved by everyone who comes into contact with him, he is such a fantastic person. We are so glad he came into our lives.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I must admit I am rather prejudiced against the JW religion. In 1986, our adopted Down's syndrome son, who was a baby at the time, had to have a life saving blood transfusion. A day or two later a couple of JWs came to our door and I challenged them about their attitude to accepting blood from a donor. They told me our lad would have been better off dead rather than receiving blood from another person. As you can imagine I was disgusted by their attitude.

I'm glad your boy is ok. I'm sorry they said that, they shouldn't have.

For us, we feel that, since God's Word says to "abstain...from blood (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29)," that is His view, a command from Him. (He gave Noah a similar command -Genesis 9:4).
If we wilfully disobey Him, we may lose His favor, and lose out on our future life from Him, everlasting life. -- Revelation 2:10b.

 

[shmogie]

I must admit I am rather prejudiced against the JW religion. In 1986, our adopted Down's syndrome son, who was a baby at the time, had to have a life saving blood transfusion. A day or two later a couple of JWs came to our door and I challenged them about their attitude to accepting blood from a donor. They told me our lad would have been better off dead rather than receiving blood from another person. As you can imagine I was disgusted by their attitude.

You should have been disgusted. Interestingly, of the many I have known, I can´t imagine one of them making a statement like that.

I pinned them down on this issue once. I asked a couple of them if they ate meat, they said yes. I asked them if they bought kosher meat exclusively, they said no.

Of course the conclusion was that if an animal is not slaughtered in the kosher manner, there will be residual blood in the meat.

My question, if you knowingly eat meat with blood in it, how can someone receiving blood to save their life be criticized ? ( I had recently got out of the hospital, where I received 6 pints of blood over a period of 35 days)

There response was quite good I thought. First, they said no one should criticize anyone for having blood transfusions. Further, they said they interpret the the command in the NT to avoid blood to include blood transfusions.

Finally, they said they wished I hadn´t brought up the meat in the supermarket !

We all laughed.

 

[shmogie]

I'm glad your boy is ok. I'm sorry they said that, they shouldn't have.

For us, we feel that, since God's Word says to "abstain...from blood (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29)," that is His view, a command from Him. (He gave Noah a similar command -Genesis 9:4).
If we wilfully disobey Him, we may lose His favor, and lose out on our future life from Him, everlasting life. -- Revelation 2:10b.

Cowboy, see my post in this thread about meat. How would you answer my question in that post ?