Can a nation with only computers stay free?

[esmith]

I was involved in a discussion with members about what would happen if the United States gave up all of our military hardware and used that money to fund welfare systems. There was a hypothesis put forward that the nation could be defended by computers, personal computers to be exact. Since the discussion was not germaine to the OP I suggested that the discussion could be continued but with it's own subject. So, to bring anyone that would like to join in this discussion I will attempt to bring everyone up to speed.
I contend that a nation's freedom can only be guaranteed by a strong military the other
The following are copied and pasted here from the other discussion:

Originally posted by Riverwolf:
Warfare need not involve taking lives, and a determined foe first needs to know who you are, where you are, and what your capabilities are. Sun Tzu teaches that all warfare is based on deception, and the personal computer (which is thousands of times more powerful than even the most powerful supercomputers from 30 years ago) can ensure that your enemy never knows your movements, but you know theirs, and can basically do with them whatever you want, send them wherever you want, etc. With cloud-computing, a personal computer can have access to the kind of processing power that a modern super computer has. Furthermore, Google-glasses-like technology could potentially allow communication techniques that are impossible for the enemy to detect.
Given enough RAM, a computer's capabilities are essentially infinite.
Power is not defined by body count potential, but by victory potential. "The highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces, the next is to attack the enemy in the field, and the worst policy of all is to attack walled cities." - Art of War 3:3
Besides, what kind of computer do you think Anonymous used to hack North Korea?
The final point is this: there is absolutely no reason why we need to spend so much money on all those military bases and on world-policing, which turns friends into enemies, and is the reason why everyone hates America right now. If we just focused on domestic issues, nobody would bat an eye about America, just like nobody bats an eye about most European countries. For crying out loud, Germany was the world's enemy during the Nazi regime, yet now nobody's looking to attack them because they're not trying to take over the world.

Now I will open with the following scenario with the United States not having any military only basic police/security agencies.

I as the aggressor have full military capabilities with the following assets: an army with the standard array of weapons, a navy with the standard array of ships, an air force with the standard array of aircraft, and the capability to launch a satellite into orbit
Now knowing that the US is relying on their technology systems I will launch a satellite into orbit and position it approximately 300 miles above Lebanon KS (the approximate geographical center of the lower 48 states. This satellite contains an EMP weapon which I will detonate at the proper time. When I detonate this weapon it will completely wipe out the electric grid of the US, it will fry all electronics that are not protected from EMP pulses. This will blind the US. I will then assault two locations on the East and West coast.(best would be Long Beach CA and Atlanta GA ) with a massive drop of combat troops preceded by air and sea "softening up". I will then establish a port for debarkation of my heavy equipment (which I really don't need since the US does not have a military) and combat troops. I will then capture Washington DC, and Los Angles and all major cities up and down both coast. I now demand that the Government of the United States surrender. Which they must or I will order the elimination of selected civilian populations of various cities. In actuality I do not need an EMP pulse, I will just go with the conventional attack phase.

If you are in doubt of this EMP scenario I suggest you read the following article:
EMP Attack Unstoppable followed up by the following The Results of an EMP Attack

 

[BSM1]

I had to read this post because, by your title, I thought you meant commuters. I'm glad you clarified this in your body. Your obvious point about an EMP weapon is salient. High tech hacking would also be a threat. Bottom line if you're not personally willing to defend your freedom, odds are you'll lose it.

 

[apophenia]

There is an even more devastating approach than EMP.

I guess you have seen the movie 'Gravity'. Its premise is the Kessler effect.

If anyone really wants to destroy modern civilisation, that would be the way to do it.

If North Korea, or Pakistan, launched rockets into orbit and blew them up, especially if they also targeted a space station, the resulting cascade of orbital shrapnel would destroy every satellite and space station up there.

This is the most pressing reason why the US, and all developed nations, want to limit the capabilities of 'the axis of evil'. IMO.

Allahu Akbar anyone ? It would sure level the playing field in a hurry ... (about 15 minutes)

 

[PolyHedral]

Geostationary orbit is a very big place, and in turn is very hard to get to. You'd have to be very well-equipped to get anything up there, let alone the budget to cause any lage amount of damage.

 

[LuisDantas]

What's with all that obsession with military might?

 

[Riverwolf]

What's with all that obsession with military might?

It's what's instinctively thought of as the thing that ensures victory.

Never mind the fact that history is riddled with examples of smaller armies (i.e., with less military might) defeating larger armies, and I know of at least one major war wherein the side that had by far the largest number of domestic casualties was also the victor.

...though I think esmith misunderstood me. I didn't say that a country with computers had absolutely no need for any kind of military whatsoever, and such a thing would be ludicrous. Even Switzerland has a military. Then again, military isn't about defending freedom; it's about defending lives.

 

[Sunstone]

I will then assault two locations on the East and West coast.(best would be Long Beach CA and Atlanta GA )http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/north-korea-emp-attack-could-destroy-u-s-right-now/

Atlanta is on the coast, now?

 

[Riverwolf]

BTW, I have a question: if an EMP is such a potentially devastating weapon... how come nobody's used one, yet?

EDIT: Oh, I see. "Not protected from EMP pulses." Therein lies the key.

If I had only the smallest military because I were spending all that extra billions of dollars on computer R&D, you can bet I'd have the ability to block future-based EMPs, let alone conventional ones. But, at the same time, I could give the false impression that I've been knocked out, giving the enemy a false sense of security. Meanwhile, I'm causing all kinds of communication malfunctions and delays via viruses (along with some adware and porn just for teh lulz), thus rendering any of their chip-based equipment with network capabilities virtually useless. Furthermore, with HUD-based computers (Google-glasses, etc), I could send augmented reality messages to civilians (who would make up a militia) to select strategic locations that the enemy wouldn't know about, basically wearing the invading army out as they search for any sign of human habitation. These locations would most likely be bunkers of some sort (there'd be multiple such bunkers per city to help keep traffic to a minimum), hidden by cloaking technology and natural terrain.

There's a LOT of wilderness in the US.

Meanwhile, I'm just hacking away at the enemy's domestic computers, making their missiles point at their own forces, sending top secret messages meant for generals to mafia lords, flooding the enemy leader's own personal computer with the Never Gonna Give You Up music video...

And in the meantime... I'd be trying to figure out exactly what it is the enemy wants that they decided to invade the US.

 

[BSM1]

Atlanta is on the coast, now?

Yes, it's on the Atlanta Ocean.

 

[Riverwolf]

Atlanta is on the coast, now?

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he'll attack a coastline city near Atlanta. ^_^

 

[esmith]

I had to read this post because, by your title, I thought you meant commuters. I'm glad you clarified this in your body. Your obvious point about an EMP weapon is salient. High tech hacking would also be a threat. Bottom line if you're not personally willing to defend your freedom, odds are you'll lose it.

Yeah, fat fingers, auto correct and not reading the subject line has a tendency to make a fool of oneself. Crap

 

[esmith]

I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he'll attack a coastline city near Atlanta. ^_^

I chose Atlanta because of the size of the airport and the highway system to reach major objectives.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yeah, fat fingers, auto correct and not reading the subject line has a tendency to make a fool of oneself. Crap

Want me to change it to say "computers"?

 

[esmith]

Want me to change it to say "computers"?

it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Riverwolf]

it would be greatly appreciated.

Done.

 

[esmith]

BTW, I have a question: if an EMP is such a potentially devastating weapon... how come nobody's used one, yet?


EDIT: Oh, I see. "Not protected from EMP pulses." Therein lies the key.

Because it would be an act of war. An EMP pulse is most likely to be a nuclear weapon detonated about 200 miles above the earth. No harm to people unless they happen to be using any electric or electronic device (like in a airplane). You also must remember what the cost would be to protect the national power grid from an EMP attack. In the following link you will notice a reference to a high altitude nuclear explosion that disrupted Hawaii's electric system. I happened to be on a ship that was involved in this operation. We witnessed around 3 surface burst and the high altitude burst.
National Energy Grid Threatened By Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack! - Article - Traditional Values Coalition. It is highly unlikely that the US power grid could be protected nor most of the commercial systems. The military has taken steps to protect military equipment.
Also, it doesn't have to be a nuclear threat. The triad of NBC warfare still has the biological and/or chemical agents that could be released in either the air or drinking water or both in all major cities in the US. The world is a very dangerous place and is getting more dangerous each day.

Oh, by the way look at what happened after WWII and the policies affecting the military. It wasn't a very good outcome to start with and only by luck and the incompetence of Kim II-Sung was the United States able to thwart the drive on Pusan and keep the North Koreans from pushing the US into the East China Sea.

And in the meantime... I'd be trying to figure out exactly what it is the enemy wants that they decided to invade the US.

To eliminate the possibility of the United States ever being able to counter "their" desire to dominate the world. Or in the case of Islamic terrorist just being able to attack the US. Or a madman in N Korea deciding to "go for it". You do realize there has never been a peace treaty signed over the Korean "Police Action". Take out the US and take over all of Korea. They almost did it once with nothing more than an army that could care less about the loss of human lives. You do realize that North Korea has the largest military organization on earth. As of 2013 it has a size of 9,495,000. Source

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Now knowing that the US is relying on their technology systems I will launch a satellite into orbit and position it approximately 300 miles above Lebanon KS (the approximate geographical center of the lower 48 states.

What you're describing is physically impossible. Nothing can be "parked" in orbit over the United States; geostationary orbits are only possible over the equator. And they're 22,000 miles up, not 300.

 

[Riverwolf]

Because it would be an act of war. An EMP pulse is most likely to be a nuclear weapon detonated about 200 miles above the earth. No harm to people unless they happen to be using any electric or electronic device (like in a airplane). You also must remember what the cost would be to protect the national power grid from an EMP attack.

Probably less than the amount of money given to the military.

In the following link you will notice a reference to a high altitude nuclear explosion that disrupted Hawaii's electric system. I happened to be on a ship that was involved in this operation. We witnessed around 3 surface burst and the high altitude burst.
National Energy Grid Threatened By Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack! - Article - Traditional Values Coalition. It is highly unlikely that the US power grid could be protected nor most of the commercial systems. The military has taken steps to protect military equipment.

A protection that would extend to the civilian power grid and commercial systems in your hypothetical, and even in a hypothetical where only some of the military funding was cut. Heck, with that kind of money being thrown to computer R&D, I doubt the cost would be all that high in the long run, anyway.

BTW, that link is not reliable; it's clearly a biased source.

Also, it doesn't have to be a nuclear threat. The triad of NBC warfare still has the biological and/or chemical agents that could be released in either the air or drinking water or both in all major cities in the US. The world is a very dangerous place and is getting more dangerous each day.

Only for those who make enemies for no reason, like the superpowers. Or people who perceive threats where there are none.

Oh, by the way look at what happened after WWII and the policies affecting the military. It wasn't a very good outcome to start with and only by luck and the incompetence of Kim II-Sung was the United States able to thwart the drive on Pusan and keep the North Koreans from pushing the US into the East China Sea.

I don't understand the relevance.

To eliminate the possibility of the United States ever being able to counter "their" desire to dominate the world.

A motive that hasn't led others to invade Britain, Germany, France, or any other ex-world power.

'Sides, if it's just a matter of dominating the world, there's only two countries I can see who have that motive: China (piracy hub of the world) and the United States.

Or in the case of Islamic terrorist just being able to attack the US.

See above. Then again, that's been the entire motive for the US to attack other countries. Plus, I wonder why only "Islamic" terrorists rather than the many, many other types of terrorists.

Or a madman in N Korea deciding to "go for it".

And bring the entire world upon them. (Though such an event could lead to a Cold War between the US and China, since China would want to take that region for themselves, and the US would want South Korea to have it.)

You do realize there has never been a peace treaty signed over the Korean "Police Action". Take out the US and take over all of Korea. They almost did it once with nothing more than an army that could care less about the loss of human lives. You do realize that North Korea has the largest military organization on earth. As of 2013 it has a size of 9,495,000. Source

And nothing else. I once again ask you: what kind of computer do you think Anonymous used to attack them? Probably a 150-200 USD netbook running Kali Linux bought in some South Korean, Japanese, or Chinese equivalent to Fry's or Best Buy, which afterwards would have run some wiping software, destroyed, and disposed of.

(One interesting thing of note, though: seems they have more female ground troops than male ones. lol)

 

[Revoltingest]

"Computers"! Now it makes sense.
Put me down on the side of a massive & powerful military which isn't out fighting needless foreign wars.

 

[LuisDantas]

The problem with seeking safety by way of military might is that it leads nowhere.

It is just a self-feeding drain that scares others into doing the same, creating huge problems for pretty much everyone and solving or preserving pretty much nothing.

As already noted elsewhere, even the immediate trigger of 9/11 was Prince Sultan Air Base.

How come anyone can even hope to attain safety for "freedom" (which kind of freedom, btw? What does that truly mean?) by having a powerful military is quite beyond me. It is a self-inflicted trap and drain, nothing more, nothing less.