Can any creationist tell me ...

[Faithofchristian]

I sort of agree, but what we know from "science", even if it is an inference, it is based on solid researched evidence, where people have gone out to discover "how things are" without presupposition. What you offer is, at best, an inference from ignorant (nothing derogatory, I just mean they had far less knowledge than we do) ancient writ where people make bald assertions. There is, I'd contend, good reason to challenge the biblical account. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise, there is every chance it is false.
I have a problem with you saying that science "supports" the bible, it is in conflict with it in many ways, you need to employ a great deal of metaphorical interpretation to bring the two together. Some Christians do that, I did myself when I was a Christian, doesn't mean I was luke warm (far from it), just that I wasn't prepared to surrender my intellect. I didn't have any choice in the matter, we cannot choose our beliefs.

If I may say, I am not like other Christians, these Christians only know what their pastors will tell them, they can't think for themselves. The same with other people on the outside of bible, will condemn the bible without actually knowing what the bible does actually will say and support.

People will point at the dinosaurs bones and say, see there the dinosaurs bones disproves the earth as being 6000 yrs old as you Christians will say.
But in really looking at the bible, the bible does support the dinosaurs bones as being Million of yrs old and the earth it's self as being Millions if not Billion of yrs old.
You see these Christians only goes by what they have been told by their pastors.
They are blind leaders, leading the blind.

There is so much in the bible that will disprove what these pastors are teaching.

Care to tell me where the bible indicates the world is over a million years old? You are raising the hackles of young Earth creationists with such heresy!

I really don't care what those young earth creationists will say, Their only going by what they have been taught by their pastors, they don't have the common sense of putting 2&2 to equal 4.

As it takes is common sense will tell you that sense the dinosaurs bones are dated to about Millions or even billions of yrs old, then the earth it's self would be that old also.


There are things in the bible that stand out, if a person has the ears to hear and eyes to see, So let's take crack at this and see if you can at lease see.Ok.

First let's come to the understanding that there were two floods of water to come upon the earth.whether or not you believe in the flood of Noah's or not.

The flood of Noah's was the second flood of water to come upon the earth.

Notice that in the book of Genesis 1:1 --"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Note that after earth there is a Period. Meaning nothing else was added.
Therefore the question would be when was the beginning? There's nothing to us exactly how old the earth really is. Only we have the dinosaurs bones that date back to some Millions or even Billions of yrs ago.

Note that in the book of Genesis 1:2 --"And the earth was without form and void: and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters"
Note the word ( was ) the Greek translation for this word is ( became ) So now the question is, what happened to the earth that the earth became without form and void?
Note also the earth was covered with water. The young earth creationists will give every answer to this which will not make no common sense at all.

Now why would God who is all powerful, create the earth and then cover the whole earth over with water, and then later cause the land to appear?
Seeing God is all powerful why not just create the earth and then put the water in it's rightful as it is now?

So something happened that caused the water to cover the whole earth, wouldn't you think?
In the book of 2 Peter, Peter trys to explain the best that he can, that in Verse 1, Peter writes this second letter, saying, I now write unto you, in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance.

You see Peter is trying to get us to remember in our minds about the world that then was.
Note in Verse 3 of 2 Peter, Knowing this first , that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts"

Here we find the young earth creationists, the scoffers, which will scoff at anything that does not fit into their agenda.

Note here the young earth creationists saying in Verse 4 --"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation"

Verse 5 --"For this they are willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, Perished"

You see even Peter saying, those that claim the earth as being a young earth are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of water and in the water.

You see even the word God proves that the heavens and the earth are of old, just how old, will we have the witnesses of the dinosaurs bones which date back to Millions and Billions of yrs old.

Notice Peter written the earth standing out of the water and in the water, Note back in the book of Genesis 1:2 the earth being covered with water?

Note Peter wrote the world that then was , being overflowed with water, Perished?

Note that this is not the flood of Noah's,
That in the flood of Noah's there were 8 people saved and the animals, But here Peter wrote Perished. There was nothing left over, that everything Perished.

Note in Verse's 15&16, that Peter wrote about Paul had written of these very same things.
"As our beloved brother Paul also According to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things I which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle, as they do also the other scriptures, into their own destruction"

You see the young earth can not make heads or tails about the scriptures.that they wrestle the scriptures into fit their own little agenda. They are unlearned and unstable because they will the teachings of their pastors which have no clue what so ever what the scriptures actually do say.

You see the world that then was, is that world of the dinosaurs, that was destroyed by a gigantic flood of water that covered the whole earth, That would make the flood of Noah's look like a small swimming pool of water.
You can read all about all of this throughout God's word.

You see the young earth creationists can not handle any of this. All because it does not fit into what they have been taught by their pastors, but non the less it's all there in God's word.whether people wants to Except it or not that's up to them. But still the same it's all there, to prove that the earth is over Million if not Billion of yrs old.

The dinosaurs bones stands there as God's witnesses of the world that then was.

 

[DavidFirth]

I sort of agree, but what we know from "science", even if it is an inference, it is based on solid researched evidence, where people have gone out to discover "how things are" without presupposition. What you offer is, at best, an inference from ignorant (nothing derogatory, I just mean they had far less knowledge than we do) ancient writ where people make bald assertions. There is, I'd contend, good reason to challenge the biblical account. It would be irresponsible to do otherwise, there is every chance it is false.
I have a problem with you saying that science "supports" the bible, it is in conflict with it in many ways, you need to employ a great deal of metaphorical interpretation to bring the two together. Some Christians do that, I did myself when I was a Christian, doesn't mean I was luke warm (far from it), just that I wasn't prepared to surrender my intellect. I didn't have any choice in the matter, we cannot choose our beliefs.

We differ, of course, in that I believe the Bible is the word of God. I don't think any of it was written in ignorance but rather our scientists pretty much flail about trying to understand things of which they are ignorant.

 

[blü 2]

Let's not make it sound like pastors lie more than scientists do. There is every bit of room for liars in science as all men lie and have lied.

Yahweh's happy to admit he tells lies too. I may have mentioned these to you before ─

1 Kings 22
23 Now, therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you."

2 Chronicles 18
22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets; the Lord has spoken evil concerning you.

Jeremiah 4
10 ... "Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem ..."

Jeremiah 20
7 O Lord, thou hast deceived me, / and I was deceived;

Ezekiel 14
9 And if the prophet be deceived and speak a word, I, the Lord, have deceived that prophet

2 Thessalonians 2
11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false.
​

 

[Polymath257]

We differ, of course, in that I believe the Bible is the word of God. I don't think any of it was written in ignorance but rather our scientists pretty much flail about trying to understand things of which they are ignorant.

That 'flailing about' is called testing of hypotheses. And yes, that is how science learns new things: figure out a hypothesis on how things act and then *test* that idea.

 

[blü 2]

I remember hearing a cleric, more than thirty years ago, speak on this topic. He said it would just mean we have discovered "how God did it". You'll never win blü 2!

Dang!

 

[blü 2]

I've just noticed this thread has passed the 300 posts mark.

Which reminds me to say that in 300 posts, no one, Creationist or otherwise, has given me the answer to my question in the OP.

And (before you ask) it was this ─

In 1859 The Origin of Species hit the stands, and most scientists and thoughtful people were very rapidly persuaded by the power of its arguments and demonstrations.

Though creationism never wholly went away after 1859, it was greatly overshadowed until, in 1961 Whitcomb and Morris published The Genesis Flood, and, particularly in the US, put enthusiasm into the bible literalists' cause again. The book also marks the birth of 'creation science'.

I address this question to creationists here:

If, as creationists say,

─ the theory of evolution is truly wrong, and

─ 'creation science' is valid science

then why, in the 56 years since The Genesis Flood, has creationism put not one single scientific mark, not the tiniest scientific scratch, on the theory of Evolution?​

It's not too late to explain it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

No none of God's word was written in ignorance. It's the people who have no knowledge or understanding what God's word actually will say. That puts people in ignorance.
This is what Peter was talking about.

Look the young earth creationists will say the earth is only 6000 yrs old, this is their ignorance of what the scriptures do say.

The earth is alot older than the young earth creationists seem to think it is.

The young earth creationists are taught the earth is only 6000 yrs old and to prove their point, they go to the book of Genesis of the creation week of Adam and Eve to prove their point that the earth is only 6000 yrs old.
For this they are ignorant of.

The earth was already there, before God created anything. The earth was covered over with water.
So how long was the earth there, before God created anything on the earth?

Notice that in the creation week of Genesis, there is no mentioning of God creating the earth?
Why? Because the earth was already there, before God had created anything.

You see as to why Peter written. For this they willing are ignorant of. In 2 Peter chapter 3. Because the young earth creationists have no clue what the scriptures say nor what the scriptures confirm's..All because they are unlearned, unskilled in the scriptures.so they wrestle about the scriptures to their understanding, of what they have been taught by man's teachings and doctrines.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

If I may say, I am not like other Christians, these Christians only know what their pastors will tell them, they can't think for themselves. The same with other people on the outside of bible, will condemn the bible without actually knowing what the bible does actually will say and support.

People will point at the dinosaurs bones and say, see there the dinosaurs bones disproves the earth as being 6000 yrs old as you Christians will say.
But in really looking at the bible, the bible does support the dinosaurs bones as being Million of yrs old and the earth it's self as being Millions if not Billion of yrs old.
You see these Christians only goes by what they have been told by their pastors.
They are blind leaders, leading the blind.

There is so much in the bible that will disprove what these pastors are teaching.

I really don't care what those young earth creationists will say, Their only going by what they have been taught by their pastors, they don't have the common sense of putting 2&2 to equal 4.

As it takes is common sense will tell you that sense the dinosaurs bones are dated to about Millions or even billions of yrs old, then the earth it's self would be that old also.


There are things in the bible that stand out, if a person has the ears to hear and eyes to see, So let's take crack at this and see if you can at lease see.Ok.

First let's come to the understanding that there were two floods of water to come upon the earth.whether or not you believe in the flood of Noah's or not.

The flood of Noah's was the second flood of water to come upon the earth.

Notice that in the book of Genesis 1:1 --"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Note that after earth there is a Period. Meaning nothing else was added.
Therefore the question would be when was the beginning? There's nothing to us exactly how old the earth really is. Only we have the dinosaurs bones that date back to some Millions or even Billions of yrs ago.

Note that in the book of Genesis 1:2 --"And the earth was without form and void: and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters"
Note the word ( was ) the Greek translation for this word is ( became ) So now the question is, what happened to the earth that the earth became without form and void?
Note also the earth was covered with water. The young earth creationists will give every answer to this which will not make no common sense at all.

Now why would God who is all powerful, create the earth and then cover the whole earth over with water, and then later cause the land to appear?
Seeing God is all powerful why not just create the earth and then put the water in it's rightful as it is now?

So something happened that caused the water to cover the whole earth, wouldn't you think?
In the book of 2 Peter, Peter trys to explain the best that he can, that in Verse 1, Peter writes this second letter, saying, I now write unto you, in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance.

You see Peter is trying to get us to remember in our minds about the world that then was.
Note in Verse 3 of 2 Peter, Knowing this first , that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts"

Here we find the young earth creationists, the scoffers, which will scoff at anything that does not fit into their agenda.

Note here the young earth creationists saying in Verse 4 --"And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation"

Verse 5 --"For this they are willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water, Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, Perished"

You see even Peter saying, those that claim the earth as being a young earth are willingly ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old and the earth standing out of water and in the water.

You see even the word God proves that the heavens and the earth are of old, just how old, will we have the witnesses of the dinosaurs bones which date back to Millions and Billions of yrs old.

Notice Peter written the earth standing out of the water and in the water, Note back in the book of Genesis 1:2 the earth being covered with water?

Note Peter wrote the world that then was , being overflowed with water, Perished?

Note that this is not the flood of Noah's,
That in the flood of Noah's there were 8 people saved and the animals, But here Peter wrote Perished. There was nothing left over, that everything Perished.

Note in Verse's 15&16, that Peter wrote about Paul had written of these very same things.
"As our beloved brother Paul also According to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things I which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle, as they do also the other scriptures, into their own destruction"

You see the young earth can not make heads or tails about the scriptures.that they wrestle the scriptures into fit their own little agenda. They are unlearned and unstable because they will the teachings of their pastors which have no clue what so ever what the scriptures actually do say.

You see the world that then was, is that world of the dinosaurs, that was destroyed by a gigantic flood of water that covered the whole earth, That would make the flood of Noah's look like a small swimming pool of water.
You can read all about all of this throughout God's word.

You see the young earth creationists can not handle any of this. All because it does not fit into what they have been taught by their pastors, but non the less it's all there in God's word.whether people wants to Except it or not that's up to them. But still the same it's all there, to prove that the earth is over Million if not Billion of yrs old.

The dinosaurs bones stands there as God's witnesses of the world that then was.

Well that was more than I wanted tbh! I don't believe scripture has any authority, I don't believe it has any value as a source of information, though it has interest from an historical/cultural viewpoint, it tells us what our ancestors believed. I am glad you hear you say the fossil record indicates we are not living on a "young Earth". It shows you do not blindly follow what others tell you, but look at the evidence. Being a Christian does not mean you have to oppose science as the work of the devil!

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

We differ, of course, in that I believe the Bible is the word of God. I don't think any of it was written in ignorance but rather our scientists pretty much flail about trying to understand things of which they are ignorant.

When I say "ignorance" I mean it in a literal sense, they just didn't have anything like the accumulated knowledge we have today, you wouldn't disagree with that I trust? No idea of how weather patterns work, no idea of germ theory, no idea of the vast scientific knowledge we take for granted that, among other things, allows us to have this conversation. I could go on.
You know there are scientists who are Christian, you seem to think it is the enemy of your religion. It may contradict a literal reading of the bible, but science didn't set out to do that. The scientists just follow the evidence, and as many early scientists were Christian you can hardly say it is all a big atheist conspiracy!

 

[DavidFirth]

That 'flailing about' is called testing of hypotheses. And yes, that is how science learns new things: figure out a hypothesis on how things act and then *test* that idea.

Agree.

 

[DavidFirth]

When I say "ignorance" I mean it in a literal sense, they just didn't have anything like the accumulated knowledge we have today, you wouldn't disagree with that I trust? No idea of how weather patterns work, no idea of germ theory, no idea of the vast scientific knowledge we take for granted that, among other things, allows us to have this conversation. I could go on.
You know there are scientists who are Christian, you seem to think it is the enemy of your religion. It may contradict a literal reading of the bible, but science didn't set out to do that. The scientists just follow the evidence, and as many early scientists were Christian you can hardly say it is all a big atheist conspiracy!

Agree with your first paragraph.

Science is not the enemy, but confirms God's word. Too many scientists assume the Bible is garbage and choose to believe the assumptions concerning billions of years. Like I have said, God most likely created everything in place, including light.

To assume light has been travelling through space for millions or billions of years is what I have a problem with. Scientists who are atheists, and many of them are, hasten to this idea because it most likely conflicts with the Bible and they think it a reasonable assumption. I, however, do not think that at all.

 

[Polymath257]

Agree with your first paragraph.

Science is not the enemy, but confirms God's word. Too many scientists assume the Bible is garbage and choose to believe the assumptions concerning billions of years. Like I have said, God most likely created everything in place, including light.

To assume light has been travelling through space for millions or billions of years is what I have a problem with. Scientists who are atheists, and many of them are, hasten to this idea because it most likely conflicts with the Bible and they think it a reasonable assumption. I, however, do not think that at all.

No, they concluded this because of the known speed of light and the distances of galaxies from us. What the Bible says is completely irrelevant.

Your version of Last Thursdayism just shows you have nothing to support your view.

As an example:

Suppose you were on a jury. Suppose that several witnesses saw a robbery and identified the defendant. Suppose that the physical evidence shows the defendant was there on the day of the robbery.

Now suppose that the only defense the defendant gives is that it is *possible* that the universe did not exist before last Thursday and that all of our memories and evidence were created at that point. So, there is a doubt that this crime actually occurred because it is said to have happened before last Thursday.

Would you consider that a 'reasonable doubt'? Would this be enough to throw away all the rest of the evidence?

 

[metis]

Most people who accept the basic ToE are not atheists, although many of them are agnostics. Also, according to surveys, most Christian and Jewish theologians do accept the basic ToE as long as it is understood that God was behind it.

Here's my point, namely that if someone feels that the literalistic approach of the creation accounts is the better way to explain how we got here, but if another feels that the basic ToE is correct and that God was behind it all, isn't this what really matters most? Is it that all Christians and Jews must supposedly have to have the same exact way of interpreting Genesis? If Church A teaches one way and Church B the other, does that mean that one of them teaches evil?

IOW, is the priority going to be "political correctness" in one area of interpretation, or is it going to be the belief in God and living a life of compassion and justice? Which is more important?

 

[Jose Fly]

" I test UCA by applying model selection theory5, 16"

Great. He tests one theory by applying another theory to it. That's a far cry from recreating and testing big bang theory, macroevolution theory and abiogenesis.

To properly test those 3 theories would require 1) recreating the big bang and also recreating conditions before the big bang, 2) starting with the first organism and waiting millions of years to see if it changes, 3) abiogenesis is not possible to test because no lab can be made exactly like conditions in which non-life became life randomly.

A theoretical test is just making another assumption about the theory you're testing.

I can't respond to this in a way that wouldn't get me kicked out of RF. Suffice to say, you should be embarrassed (unless you're a troll who's just trying to make Christians look pathetically ignorant of the basics of science).

 

[DavidFirth]

I can't respond to this in a way that wouldn't get me kicked out of RF. Suffice to say, you should be embarrassed (unless you're a troll who's just trying to make Christians look pathetically ignorant of the basics of science).

In other words, you can't test those 3 theories. You can only test things about them, which isn't the same thing.

 

[Polymath257]

In other words, you can't test those 3 theories. You can only test things about them, which isn't the same thing.

Wrong. It is exactly the same thing. We test the predictions of those theories and compare them to the predictions of other theories. Then we eliminate or change the ones that don't fit the observations. The theories you deride (especially the Big Bang and Evolution) make very specific predictions that can be verified by observations. There is no requirement to reconstruct the conditions of the original singularity or to wait millions of years in order to test these ideas.

 

[DavidFirth]

Wrong. It is exactly the same thing. We test the predictions of those theories and compare them to the predictions of other theories. Then we eliminate or change the ones that don't fit the observations. The theories you deride (especially the Big Bang and Evolution) make very specific predictions that can be verified by observations. There is no requirement to reconstruct the conditions of the original singularity or to wait millions of years in order to test these ideas.

Macroevolution makes no predictions. If it does, please explain what the following creatures will evolve into next:

1. Man
2. Ape
3. Mosquito

 

[Jose Fly]

In other words, you can't test those 3 theories. You can only test things about them, which isn't the same thing.

I call Poe's Law. If you're just trolling Christians, all I can say is.......well done!

 

[Polymath257]

Macroevolution makes no predictions. If it does, please explain what the following creatures will evolve into next:

1. Man
2. Ape
3. Mosquito

It predicts *observations* that can be made. In this case, it predicts what sorts of fossils will be found, in what layers, and how they will be similar to those found ion other layers.

Because of the statistical nature of evolution, and the unknown nature of the environment into the future, specific forward predictions are impossible.

But they are also not required for the testing of the theory.

 

[Faithofchristian]

If you will notice that in 1 kings 22:20-23 these prophets are not the Lord's Prophets.
Notice in Verse 20 --"And the Lord said, who shall persuade Ahab"

Verse 21 --"And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the Lord, and said, I will persuade him"

This spirit will persuade Ahab?

Verse 22 --"And the Lord said unto him, wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets"

Those prophets are not the Lord's Prophets, those prophets are Ahab's prophets, and that spirit will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all Ahab's prophets.

Verse 23 --"Now therefore , behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets"

Therefore these prophets are not the Lord's Prophets, but they are Ahab's prophets.

Maybe you should go back at the beginning of the Chapter 22 and pick up what the subject and the Article is about, before you make any claims.

Because as you can see those prophets are Not the Lord's Prophets, but they are Ahab's prophets that this lying spirit entered into.all because these prophets were not the Lord's Prophets but Ahab's prophets and spoke words that were not from the Lord at all.

Notice that in 2 Chronicles 18:22 the Lord put a lying spirit in the mouth of these your prophets.
Again these are not the Lord's Prophets, but Ahab's prophets.

You really need to back up to the beginning of a chapter and find what the subject and Article is about, before make any such claims.that make you look foolishly.

This to of Jeremiah 4:10 these false prophets are not the Lord's Prophets. These false prophets speak lies to the people Israel.
Notice back in Verse 7 The destroyer of the Gentiles is on his way, he is gone forth from his place to make your land desolate, and your city's shall be laid waste, without an inhabitant.
Therefore these false prophets were saying things that were from the Lord, Thereby if a person or people wish to believe a lie, For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.

The Lord God does not deceive people, if people wants to believe a lying spirit, then God will let that spirit deceive them,

For the people have harden their hearts against God, that they will not hear God.

But will hear the lying spirit.