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Can any creationist tell me ...

Grandliseur

Well-Known Member
I'd agree with you about plenty of exercise and healthy food, I'm very much into both. As for the money thing, yes medicine is a business, even where I live in the UK where we have free health care for the poor and the vulnerable. However, so what? It doesn't make it evil, undertakers make money out of death but that doesn't make them ghouls, who wants to work for free? Where there is a human need people will make a business out of it, just plain old reality.
I've lived through a lot of "end of the worlds", there is one scheduled for the 23rd of September this year, you can find the thread in the jokes section. I think I'll watch it come and go like all the other apocalypses, perhaps nibbling on an apple - much healthier than a box of chocolates! ;)
We don't live forever, and recently they acclaim the health benefits of chocolate - which is to my liking. If you have seen what has happened to insulin prices lately and were a diabetic, you would perhaps think them ghouls.

As to apocalypses, there is this to say, when even Steven Hawkins and other imminent scientists begin to claim that the human race has no longer than about a hundred years left on the planet, I personally, looking at events with Biblical studies behind me, think that it is now or never that the Bible end prophecies shall be fulfilled. You say, Never! I say, chocolate now. I am sorry, I mean, End is near.
 

The Holy Bottom Burp

Active Member
As to apocalypses, there is this to say, when even Steven Hawkins and other imminent scientists begin to claim that the human race has no longer than about a hundred years left on the planet, I personally, looking at events with Biblical studies behind me, think that it is now or never that the Bible end prophecies shall be fulfilled. You say, Never! I say, chocolate now. I am sorry, I mean, End is near.

Agreed, the human race will almost certainly die out, the eventual heat death of our sun pretty much guarantees that. Will we survive another 100, another 1000, another 100, 000 years or longer? I've no idea, if the worst scenarios about climate change come to pass it could be less than 100. One thing I am certain about though, and I think I'd have said the same when I was a Christian, reading the bible will not elucidate you about when the end of the world is going to happen. Nor will any other ancient holy writ, better to make the most of this life I say, and do your best to keep the planet healthy for future generations.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Well, dear people, we've now past 120 posts, but I'm afraid that for the creationists (and I don't include Muslim-UK in that group, since he's cool with evolution) none of those posts is a winner.

So it remains the case that in the 56 years and counting since The Genesis Flood, and the dawn of 'creation science', 'creation science' has not made one single valid scientific criticism of its hated enemy the theory of evolution.

All those scoffing words, all those derogatory declarations, all those sermons of horror, are just so much scowling flatus.

But thanks to those who've contributed, not least to sapiens for his thorough demolition of the list of purported scientific papers claims by creationists.

And, dear creo friends, doesn't it mean anything to you that 'creation science' is to science as fairy tales are to history? Do you not reconsider when such massive failures by your cause are set out before you?

Or do you go away saying, Who cares?, and settle down with a cup of coffee and the same comfortable old rationalizations and excuses, though they're as spurious as ever?

Is that what faith means?
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
That is not possible because the methods used by Science can not be applied to GOD. He is outside the realm of Time and Space, and not subject to lab experiments. Depending on your reasons for asking, you have to use your own reasoning to discover evidence for God if you are interested.
On the contrary: if God made a physical thing that we can analyze, we can also investigate reverse engineering that physical thing. BTW, if you want to quote scientific articles, I was always taught to go no further back than 3-5 years as a lot can change. Still, at least you quote someone in the 21st century. That's better than most Christian creationists, who seem to think scholars stopped writing papers in the 1800s.

(They made a movie, God's Not Dead (2014), with that plot afterwards.)
I've only seen clips of it, but it makes people dumber with every spoken word.

In my long life, I have seen time and again the Bible being found true in archaeological finds. (I don't expect you to agree)
I'm not going to agree either. :p

It is again a war on believers of the Bible and on the Bible itself.
Idolatry's a sin. Maybe believe in a deity, not a book?

We are now in the much proclaimed sixth extinction - biological annihilation by human hands. What fine work our science has produced. Don't you think!
The bible promised global annihilation and had no idea of science (or, at least, modern stuff).

Yes, I like my Android tablet, my phones, and PCs, my cars, and washing machines, but at the expense of the earth!
To be honest, the world will get by fine without either one of us. We are destroying the planet for US, not the planet as a whole. It didn't need humans for millions upon millions of years and it won't need us when we're gone again. We are just an ecological niche that is easily filled by whatever else comes along.

And if you disagree, ask yourself why God says He loves us so much yet threatens annihilation all the time. We clearly are not "God's gift to Creation" or anything if we can be tossed aside so easily like a broken pencil, right?

The US has been the global leader in science, for a century or more
And we're destroying all that progress because of some troglodytes.

For me the more important observation and test is that creationism has not contributed a single thing to our scientific understanding of the world in at least a century, while evolutionary theory has not only contributed enormously, it's been the unifying framework of the life sciences for over 100 years.
Yes, Jesus told us to judge a tree by its fruit. The fruit from Creationism has been rather lackluster, no? :)

At the end of the day the "RNA-world" hypothesis remains problematic. RNA and its components are difficult to synthesize under the best of circumstances, in a laboratory, let alone under plausible prebiotic conditions. Once RNA is synthesized, it can make new copies of itself only with a great deal of chemical coaxing from the scientist. Overbye notes that "even if RNA did appear naturally, the odds that it would happen in the right sequence to drive Darwinian evolution seem small."
I think this is a very informative book regarding genetics

Ponder what a small book said circa 2000 years ago, and don't forget that then the earth was fairly pristine, man's ability to destroy the earth, not even thought possible: "18 And the nations were wroth, (speaking of right now)
You might want to read an environmental history of mankind or something. The ancients weren't as pristine as they should've been, especially when metal items started becoming a thing.

This is to show us what happens when we rule.
It also shows a marked amount of utter neglect by the Ruler of the World, no?

We are not the kings of this world. We are the maintenance crew and it's up to the Boss to make sure everything's going okay.

A religious person warning us the world is going to end any day soon? I hate to burst your bubble but every generation has had religious people claiming this.
Yeah, I'll be 40 this year and have already survived multiple apocalypses. :)

The teaching that is quite well known, even quoted, yet, ignored - is this: "and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn. . ."
Jesus is coming from the sky on a white horse. Funny, is he going to borrow Vishnu's, who also promised to do such a thing next time?

Much medicine is simply poison to the body so that less is more, and more is less. Here, it is paramount that the individual is personal involved and responsible for their own health care (plenty of exercise and healthy food). It is about money in that business, not about helping the sick. Look at how diabetes has succumbed to greed in regard to insulin.
Not everyone who is diabetic is so due to dietary issues. If you think so (I'm an RN, btw), you don't know a whole lot about medicine. Yes, I get that there are con jobs in medicine, but I also think it pales in comparison to "if you give the pastor a dollar, God will cure you of your cancer", right?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Guy Threepwood

I looked at the first article in your list ─ I remember Meyer as one of the three who fled from Dover ─ and all I saw was a god-of-the-gaps argument ─ we dunno so god dunnit.

If you keep reading you will see that Meyer's central argument is made in the affirmative. It proposes an unambiguous empirically proven phenomena capable of producing the nested hierarchical digital information systems like those which life depends upon.

We know intelligent design can produce these kinds of systems and we are using proof of that principle right now.

Whether or not they can also be produced by entirely unguided, naturalistic processes... it's a very interesting question, and worth looking at also. I don't think we should simply 'dismiss' either possibility without good cause. Only ideology does this. I'm rather more dispassionate from this side of the fence, having already been on the other!

The other arguments also look at corroborating lines of evidence, direct experimentation, observation, the fossil record. If you look at these, it's Darwinism that rejects the direct empirical evidence and demands invisible evidence lurking in the gaps to satisfy the theory. Quite literally an argument from the (fossil) gaps


Is it your claim that any of those articles has led to a creationist-based change in the theory of evolution?

If so, grateful if you point out which one.

ToE has splintered into groups, like punctuated equilibriumists, who now acknowledge what creation/ID science has said all along. That the gaps are real, not artifacts of an incomplete record as originally predicted in the Victorian age theory.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Well, let's see.
There's that pesky explosion of life, the so-called Cambrian explosion.
Then there is the glaring lack of evidence for how life could begin in the first place. Oh, wait, evolutionists believe that has no relevance to their theory.
Then there is the statistical impossibility of mutations and "natural selection" producing the unimaginable complexity in living cells.
And much, much more.
But my instinct is that none of this matters to those who deny the fact that we were created, as all life was. It is, I believe, not the evidence that is lacking, for the evidence is all around us. It is the closed minds and hearts that refuse to acknowledge that "every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God." (Hebrews 3:4)
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Guy Threepwood

We know intelligent design can produce these kinds of systems and we are using proof of that principle right now.

Now now! Say out loud 'n proud that the only 'intelligent designer' you're talking about is the god of your version of far right Christianity.

As for Meyer's article, it can propose supernatural solutions to physical problems till Meyer's blue in the face, but it'll still be the same old backdoor tactic that was exposed at the Dover trial, and it doesn't demonstrate anything of consequence.


Not that it makes any difference to what Meyer wrote there, but you recall how he ─ and Dembski, and Campbell ─ all attempted to file pro-creo statements for use at the Dover trial.

But when they found out they couldn't do that without exposing themselves to being cross-examined on those statements, they turned and fled far far away.

At least Michael Behe had the courage of his convictions, even though every single one of his examples of 'irreducible complexity' was fully explained at the trial by exaptation. 'Irreducible complexity' is the only material evidence offered for ID, of course.

Behe had known since (from memory) 2002 ie long before the trial that his claims for 'irreducible complexity' ignored exaptation, and either at the trial or shortly after he undertook to fix his formulation so as to take it into account. But that was 2005 Dec and it's now 2017 July and he's done nothing. I dare say that's because he can't.

I'm not aware of even one single purported example of 'irreducible complexity' that remains unexplained in evolutionary terms. Not one.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
rusra02

Then there is the glaring lack of evidence for how life could begin in the first place. Oh, wait, evolutionists believe that has no relevance to their theory.

Surely you already know that the theory of evolution starts with something that's alive and reproduces?

As for abiogenesis, that's a separate and interesting topic.

Tell me: if science demonstrates a path from chemistry to working biochemistry 'in the lab', will you give up your faith in creationism? Or will you suddenly insist abiogenesis isn't important, and change nothing of your thinking?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Tell me: if science demonstrates a path from chemistry to working biochemistry 'in the lab', will you give up your faith in creationism? Or will you suddenly insist abiogenesis isn't important, and change nothing of your thinking?

Thar was a rhetorical question, right? I think that we already know what the answers will be when that time comes:

[1] You can't prove that that pathway occurred in the past or that God didn't create life.

[2] All that proves is that intelligent design is necessary.

Creationists like the play the part of people that require and respect evidence, but they didn't come to their present positions using evidence and they can't be budged from it by evidence.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thar was a rhetorical question, right?

Put it this way. I would have been interested in the answer but I'm not surprised there isn't one.

[1] You can't prove that that pathway occurred in the past or that God didn't create life.

Indeed. But still, a god of the gaps can't be happy about not having that gap any more,

[2] All that proves is that intelligent design is necessary.

If an Intelligent Designer designed humans, I've got a few bones to pick with him (her, it, them, other), the rascal!
.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
rusra02

Then there is the glaring lack of evidence for how life could begin in the first place. Oh, wait, evolutionists believe that has no relevance to their theory.

Surely you already know that the theory of evolution starts with something that's alive and reproduces?

As for abiogenesis, that's a separate and interesting topic.

Tell me: if science demonstrates a path from chemistry to working biochemistry 'in the lab', will you give up your faith in creationism? Or will you suddenly insist abiogenesis isn't important, and change nothing of your thinking?
What would be proven IF (gigantic if) life could be created from non-living chemicals? In my mind, it would prove that a brilliant intellect is responsible for this stupendous achievement. What, then, should we conclude about DNA, protein folding, and millions of miraculous life forms flying, swimming, running, and walking on a planet superbly designed to support such life? I believe each person should seek the answer for himself. The answer to that question will determine our life course and our destiny, because I believe the right answer can lead us to the true God and to the real life. (John 17:3)
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
What would be proven IF (gigantic if) life could be created from non-living chemicals? In my mind, it would prove that a brilliant intellect is responsible for this stupendous achievement. What, then, should we conclude about DNA, protein folding, and millions of miraculous life forms flying, swimming, running, and walking on a planet superbly designed to support such life? I believe each person should seek the answer for himself. The answer to that question will determine our life course and our destiny, because I believe the right answer can lead us to the true God and to the real life. (John 17:3)


Yes, it would be a proof of principle that life could be created through intelligent design... but we already have this in terms of the literal digital nested information systems than operate life:- which is really the crux of the matter

We know such information systems can be originated by creative intelligence. We are using proof of that right now. Whether or not the same can be achieved by purely unguided mechanisms as some believe.... it's an interesting question, not impossible I don't think, but certainly problematic mathematically.- certainly not a 'default' explanation until proven otherwise!
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
I don't think they've proven that there aren't canals on mars.
We have.
curiosity_route.jpg
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
What would be proven IF (gigantic if) life could be created from non-living chemicals?
What would happen? It would show that there's a natural pathway from chemistry to active biochemistry; and thus end a debate as to whether such a thing exists.
In my mind, it would prove that a brilliant intellect is responsible for this stupendous achievement.
Why? Snowflakes and crystals can form complex shapes through the workings of physics, so why not chemistry when it becomes biochemistry?
What, then, should we conclude about DNA, protein folding, and millions of miraculous life forms flying, swimming, running, and walking on a planet superbly designed to support such life?
We should express admiration for Wallace and Darwin for demonstrating the power of evolution to do these things, no? Darwin's explanation has been enormously elaborated on, and our understanding is receiving enormous boosts from the new tools for studying genetics; but it's a colossally successful theory and has colossal explaining power.
I believe each person should seek the answer for himself.
Yes, with an honest, open and enquiring mind, trying to discover which statements correctly describe reality and which don't.
The answer to that question will determine our life course and our destiny, because I believe the right answer can lead us to the true God and to the real life. (John 17:3)
I don't share that view, but if you're keeping an open mind and not ruling eg evolution out without first understanding what it says, why it says it, and what it explains, then ─ go for it!
.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We know such information systems can be originated by creative intelligence. We are using proof of that right now. Whether or not the same can be achieved by purely unguided mechanisms as some believe.... it's an interesting question, not impossible I don't think, but certainly problematic mathematically.- certainly not a 'default' explanation until proven otherwise!
Is there any alternative that's been credibly demonstrated?
.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Is there any alternative that's been credibly demonstrated?
.

Negative, creative intelligence is the only demonstrable, observable, repeatable mechanism by which such nested hierarchical information systems are known to be originated.

Again that's not to say that intelligence-free alternatives are not technically possible, but it may require an infinite probability machine to overcome the odds, many already concede this requirement just for physics though.. (multiverses)
 

DavidFirth

Well-Known Member
In 1859 The Origin of Species hit the stands, and most scientists and thoughtful people were very rapidly persuaded by the power of its arguments and demonstrations.

Though creationism never wholly went away after 1859, it was greatly overshadowed until, in 1961 Whitcomb and Morris published The Genesis Flood, and, particularly in the US, put enthusiasm into the bible literalists' cause again. The book also marks the birth of 'creation science'.

I address this question to creationists here:

If, as creationists say,

─ the theory of evolution is truly wrong, and

─ 'creation science' is valid science

then why, in the 56 years since The Genesis Flood, has creationism put not one single scientific mark, not the tiniest scientific scratch, on the theory of Evolution?

Evolution among like kinds happens, we all know that. When we see cats change into lions or tigers, then we'll start getting concerned.

Meanwhile, we don't see anything like that happening so macroevolution is an assumption that needs no reproof, rather the macroevolutionists have to prove it is happening and they haven't. Because they can't.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Negative, creative intelligence is the only demonstrable, observable, repeatable mechanism by which such nested hierarchical information systems are known to be originated.

Again that's not to say that intelligence-free alternatives are not technically possible, but it may require an infinite probability machine to overcome the odds, many already concede this requirement just for physics though.. (multiverses)
But we've never detected life more intelligent than H sap sap anywhere, not on earth, not in the cosmos. We don't even have a hypothesis as to how it might exist.

Which adds cred to the natural explanation.

As to knowing what the odds are, it's difficult to say. We don't yet have a description of abiogenesis from go to whoa, so we can neither assert that it would be probable in a particular environment, or would be immensely improbable. The evidence that it happened around submarine geothermal vents is fascinating, but it won't be confirmed or refuted until more is known.

But once life exists, natural selection is a powerful tool and we know that the odds of H sap sap evolving are exactly 1.0.
.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
macroevolution is an assumption that needs no reproof, rather the macroevolutionists have to prove it is happening and they haven't. Because they can't.
Here is a quick overview of macroevolution from Wikipedia.

Here is a long, detailed article on the evidence for macroevolution.

Here is a shorter article on the evidence for common descent, which is the same thing.

Read those, and then never again say there's no evidence for macroevolution. Or that the evidence is unsatisfactory.

You surely aren't a volunteer to be ignorant or to pretend evidence doesn't exist when it exists in abundance, are you?
.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Negative, creative intelligence is the only demonstrable, observable, repeatable mechanism by which such nested hierarchical information systems are known to be originated.
Checking that out, I find this counterclaim:

Prediction 1.2: A nested hierarchy of species

As seen from the phylogeny in Figure 1, the predicted pattern of organisms at any given point in time can be described as "groups within groups", otherwise known as a nested hierarchy. The only known processes that specifically generate unique, nested, hierarchical patterns are branching evolutionary processes. Common descent is a genetic process in which the state of the present generation/individual is dependent only upon genetic changes that have occurred since the most recent ancestral population/individual. Therefore, gradual evolution from common ancestors must conform to the mathematics of Markov processes and Markov chains. Using Markovian mathematics, it can be rigorously proven that branching Markovian replicating systems produce nested hierarchies (Givnish and Sytsma 1997; Harris 1989; Norris 1997). For these reasons, biologists routinely use branching Markov chains to effectively model evolutionary processes, including complex genetic processes, the temporal distributions of surnames in populations (Galton and Watson 1874), and the behavior of pathogens in epidemics.​

Do you think that's fair?
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