Can God forgive?

[firedragon]

The reason God can't forgive without Jesus death is because everyone has to die for their sins.

So God is limited in his power to forgive.

 

[74x12]

So God is limited in his power to forgive.

So Allah would break his word to forgive in your opinion?

 

[firedragon]

So Allah would break his word to forgive in your opinion?

By saying Allah you must be thinking it is the Muslim God. So I dont think that's relevant, and is a Tu Quoque fallacy.

Try and respond to the topic, I request.

 

[74x12]

I don't believe Allah breaks his word. That's all I'm saying. I think this is why Jesus came to die to fulfill the will of Allah.

The idea of sacrifice for atonement is not new to Christianity. Actually it was in ancient Judaism and we see it in other cultures as well. Everyone in the ancient near east agreed that God or the "gods" needed sacrifice. I think that Islam is therefore ... the one that changed things.

Jesus fulfills the need for sacrifice permanently by becoming the ultimate sacrifice ... but Mohammad just does away with it and simply ignores it.

 

[firedragon]

I don't believe Allah breaks his word. That's all I'm saying. I think this is why Jesus came to die to fulfill the will of Allah.

The idea of sacrifice for atonement is not new to Christianity. Actually it was in ancient Judaism and we see it in other cultures as well. Everyone in the ancient near east agreed that God or the "gods" needed sacrifice. I think that Islam is therefore ... the one that changed things.

Jesus fulfills the need for sacrifice permanently by becoming the ultimate sacrifice ... but Mohammad just does away with it and simply ignores it.

I dont think attacking Muhammed and Islam is gonna answer the question of the OP.

Its a logical fallacy. Tu Quoque.

 

[74x12]

By saying Allah you must be thinking it is the Muslim God. So I dont think that's relevant, and is a Tu Quoque fallacy.

Try and respond to the topic, I request.

Just answer the question for sake of argument.

I believe Christian Arabs used Allah before Mohammad. It's just basically the same word as in Aramaic Ellah which is equivalent of Hebrew Eloah. Christian Arabs still use Allah today.

 

[74x12]

I dont think attacking Muhammed and Islam is gonna answer the question of the OP.

Its a logical fallacy. Tu Quoque.

I thought this debate was about sacrifice? Jesus in the Christian Bible claims to be the sacrifice for sin. Mohammad and Quran claims there is no need for sacrifice. So who is right?

 

[74x12]

By saying Allah you must be thinking it is the Muslim God. So I dont think that's relevant, and is a Tu Quoque fallacy.

Try and respond to the topic, I request.

Either God never lies or else you can't trust anything God says.

 

[firedragon]

I thought this debate was about sacrifice? Jesus in the Christian Bible claims to be the sacrifice for sin. Mohammad and Quran claims there is no need for sacrifice. So who is right?

I understand your question, and it is a valid question. But its for another topic.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I am not referring in the OP to any New Testament book, but the Christian Theology.

Yes I understand but it can only be corrected through reexamination of the Texts is my belief. Thanks anyway.

 

[Muffled]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

I believe it is not our weakness but ours. I have talked to a Jew who as not sure of God's forgiveness even though the Tenach says He does and I heard a story of a Muslim who didn't believe he was forgiven even though the Qu'ran says He does. The cross is the seal of forgiveness in blood for those who need more than just a say so.

 

[Muffled]

That is what man is prone to do, limit God to their understanding.

Regards Tony

i believe if you were talking about the Muslims then you are right.

 

[Muffled]

God is unlimided in my understanding, above all life in our universe. Unfortunatly some human beings use their ego to put them selvs above God (not you @firedragon ).

And yes God can forgive if we acknowledge our faults, and ask for forgivness

I believe He can forgive even His unrepenting enemies. He did that with the Pahrisees that were mocking Him.

Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

 

[firedragon]

I believe it is not our weakness but ours. I have talked to a Jew who as not sure of God's forgiveness even though the Tenach says He does and I heard a story of a Muslim who didn't believe he was forgiven even though the Qu'ran says He does. The cross is the seal of forgiveness in blood for those who need more than just a say so.

So God has no power to forgive upon someones plea, submission, or/and repentance?

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

To answer, I would need to put on my Christian thinking cap - that is, thinking that if I were a Christian, what excuse could I dream up to explain God's choices and behavior in this instance? And what I came up with was that perhaps just "being forgiving" doesn't work so well with the human disposition. Perhaps we are too prone to take things for granted if they come too easily for us. So, to tie our forgiveness to something ultimately traumatizing and that has a palpable cost associated, then perhaps that helps to keep people in the frame of mind of appreciating the forgiveness, rather than just hand-wave with a "Yeah, yeah - God forgives, He does it all the time."

Not being a Christian, I have always actually thought the crucifixion a very strange story when taken to its logical conclusions and keeping in mind many of the common attributes that Christians like to grant Jesus. Such as the idea that leaving the Earthly plane isn't "the end," and what comes after this was guaranteed to be "better" for Jesus (I would think heaven might leave its doors on auto-open for Jesus) - which devalues the sacrifice. Devaluing it even further is the idea that Jesus somehow is God (trinity) - which makes it such that NOTHING was actually sacrificed - God could easily just re-establish Himself on Earth as Jesus: Part 2, or something. And, as relayed in the OP, He could have literally chosen anything to represent the forgiveness - He supposedly has the power, so even "just forgiving" was an option, which, from God's perspective, I would think makes the whole crucifixion ordeal incredibly pointless. That it had any meaning to us, in our limited human understanding, should probably be tempered by that idea given that we're intelligent enough to draw such conclusions.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

i believe if you were talking about the Muslims then you are right.

I beleive it is statements just like you made that does limit God.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

To answer, I would need to put on my Christian thinking cap - that is, thinking that if I were a Christian, what excuse could I dream up to explain God's choices and behavior in this instance? And what I came up with was that perhaps just "being forgiving" doesn't work so well with the human disposition. Perhaps we are too prone to take things for granted if they come too easily for us. So, to tie our forgiveness to something ultimately traumatizing and that has a palpable cost associated, then perhaps that helps to keep people in the frame of mind of appreciating the forgiveness, rather than just hand-wave with a "Yeah, yeah - God forgives, He does it all the time."

Not being a Christian, I have always actually thought the crucifixion a very strange story when taken to its logical conclusions and keeping in mind many of the common attributes that Christians like to grant Jesus. Such as the idea that leaving the Earthly plane isn't "the end," and what comes after this was guaranteed to be "better" for Jesus (I would think heaven might leave its doors on auto-open for Jesus) - which devalues the sacrifice. Devaluing it even further is the idea that Jesus somehow is God (trinity) - which makes it such that NOTHING was actually sacrificed - God could easily just re-establish Himself on Earth as Jesus: Part 2, or something. And, as relayed in the OP, He could have literally chosen anything to represent the forgiveness - He supposedly has the power, so even "just forgiving" was an option, which, from God's perspective, I would think makes the whole crucifixion ordeal incredibly pointless. That it had any meaning to us, in our limited human understanding, should probably be tempered by that idea given that we're intelligent enough to draw such conclusions.

Hmm. Well, that's a great response. Truly appreciate it. Especially since you had the disposition to put on someone else's "thinking cap".

I shall not make a refutation. Thanks, and I shall ponder a bit further because of you.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God?

To me it shows the power in God’s Word, the power of submission to which the Messenger is the first and most perfect example for us.

Thus the weakness is ours and ours only.

Christ said take up the cross and follow me, how many chose the cross? To sacrafice ourselves fully in Christ, is to be born again in spirit. Christ showed us what that ultimately means, it is to give your whole self to the message and law, in service to all humanity.

Regards Tony

 

[1213]

So you dont believe in the sacrificial lamb either?

It depends on what is meant with the word. Jesus used his life for us, by preaching the Gospel. In that way he sacrificed his life for us and can be called sacrificial lamb. I think it could be compared to a soldier who sacrifices his life for his county by defending it.

What do you mean with the word “sacrificial lamb”?

 

[savagewind]

This is with an aim of getting a little more information and/or reasoning. It triggered due to a recent discussion between two apologists, one christian, and the other muslim. The christian apologist reasoned that the Islamic "Allah" is not powerful enough to become a man. Saying God does not become a man is limiting God. So he says.

A question arose from that.

Is God so weak that he cannot just forgive? Does God have to send his son, or Jesus being God, does he have to come as a man and die on the cross in order to forgive? Is not that limiting God? Especially considering God who in the book of Ezekiel has all the power to forgive upon simple repentance and change of ways etc etc, while suddenly God has become so powerless and limited that God the Son has to become a man, born to a woman, work as a handy man, get beaten and killed on a cross by the romans in order to do what he was capable of doing earlier anyway?

Is that not limiting God? Is that not making him powerless?

That is some wonderful writing! Now, alas, I have the feeling that I might read all your posts. I probably won't. I share your opinion that there are many people who seem to "limit God". Maybe It is all about power. And, OMG, I thought it was about LOVE.