Can ideas be held accountable?

[Falvlun]

Religion is just an idea in the minds of humans, it would make no sense to blame an idea. It's like blaming the gun for killing someone and not the human who pulled the trigger.

from Here.

This concept gave me pause. I do tend to hold beliefs accountable for their negative-- or positive, as it may be-- results. Some ideas are just horrible-- like the idea that certain races are inferior to others. And some ideas, by their very nature, can be powerful, persuasive, and controlling.

But, at the same time, I thought Photonic had a point. After all, an idea is only dangerous, or beneficial, if someone is acting upon it.

So, what do you think? Can ideas be held accountable?

 

[Gjallarhorn]

I don't think ideas can be held accountable for anything. That kind of logic encourages book burning and ignorance.

 

[Nakosis]

Words, ideas have power over people. One can control others by using words and ideas. I didn't understand this at first. I always felt words/ideas only have the authority given to them by the individual. However it seems almost human nature to give authority to certain ideas, arguments(words) without critical assessment.

However using the right words and ideas can enable control of the masses. Seems weird but that is the way it works. Not for everyone, but enough that one can gain control of a majority.

There is always an individual behind the words and ideas and ultimately has to be accountable for them. So if I cause riot/revolution with my ideas and words. Never raise a weapon myself. Who's responsible. The people who acted on my words? The words themselves or me.

You may never know my name. Hitler was a puppet. Controlled by the words of another. Hitler gets the blame though his thinking was coerced, implanted by the words and ideas of another.

I think sometimes we end up blaming the idea not knowing it's true source. Sometimes that source maybe several generations separated from the acts. In some cases an ideas seems to take on a life of its own, morphing from the original concept without intelligent assessment. Individuals adding to or subtracting ideas with no understanding or authority to do so. These madly morphing ideas influencing new generations who add their own twists and turns.

While the individual may be a puppet of idealism, you have to still hold the individual accountable for their acts. That is the only way to correct anything. Even though they maybe as much the victim of an idea as a perpetrator.

 

[Desert Snake]

Basically, no. especially considering the concept of "Freedom of Speech".

 

[Thief]

Heard it in a song.....
'...what if your words could be judged as a crime?...'

There is some practice to that effect.

 

[Falvlun]

Basically, no. especially considering the concept of "Freedom of Speech".

Heard it in a song.....
'...what if your words could be judged as a crime?...'

There is some practice to that effect.

Interesting take. Both you guys went the same route.

But even "Freedom of Speech" doesn't cover all speech-- like crying Fire in a theater, or hate speech, etc.

Also, I don't condone punishing someone for thinking an idea (and not acting upon it). That's the whole point, actually! It's saying the idea is twisted, not the person.

 

[Falvlun]

Words, ideas have power over people. One can control others by using words and ideas. I didn't understand this at first. I always felt words/ideas only have the authority given to them by the individual. However it seems almost human nature to give authority to certain ideas, arguments(words) without critical assessment.

This is how I see it too.

However using the right words and ideas can enable control of the masses. Seems weird but that is the way it works. Not for everyone, but enough that one can gain control of a majority.

And I think this is demonstrated with many political and religious belief systems. The belief provides a method of control over those who believe it.

There is always an individual behind the words and ideas and ultimately has to be accountable for them. So if I cause riot/revolution with my ideas and words. Never raise a weapon myself. Who's responsible. The people who acted on my words? The words themselves or me.

You may never know my name. Hitler was a puppet. Controlled by the words of another. Hitler gets the blame though his thinking was coerced, implanted by the words and ideas of another.

I think sometimes we end up blaming the idea not knowing it's true source. Sometimes that source maybe several generations separated from the acts. In some cases an ideas seems to take on a life of its own, morphing from the original concept without intelligent assessment. Individuals adding to or subtracting ideas with no understanding or authority to do so. These madly morphing ideas influencing new generations who add their own twists and turns.

While the individual may be a puppet of idealism, you have to still hold the individual accountable for their acts. That is the only way to correct anything. Even though they maybe as much the victim of an idea as a perpetrator.

Again, I agree. Holding a belief responsible for the havoc-- or blessings-- it creates does not mean that people are off the hook. After all, they ultimately chose to act upon it. But I think it's naive to ignore the power that ideas hold over how we choose to act.

 

[Desert Snake]

Interesting take. Both you guys went the same route.

But even "Freedom of Speech" doesn't cover all speech-- like crying Fire in a theater, or hate speech, etc.

Also, I don't condone punishing someone for thinking an idea (and not acting upon it). That's the whole point, actually! It's saying the idea is twisted, not the person.

Hmm.. Well i don't agree with punishing people for thinking an idea either.

 

[ChristineES]

It isn't the words, the ideas, etc, it is intent behind them. So I don't think ideas could possibly be held accountable for anything. I'd hate to have the "thought police".

 

[Falvlun]

Hmm.. I still think it's the responsibility of the person, though. Otherwise an idea can be used as an excuse.

Is it an excuse to state that the reason the pins fell down is because the bowling ball hit them?

I do believe humans have free will. But I also believe that our choices are largely predicated upon our genetics and environment. We are oh so many pins hit by oh so many bowling balls of this world.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

from Here.

This concept gave me pause. I do tend to hold beliefs accountable for their negative-- or positive, as it may be-- results. Some ideas are just horrible-- like the idea that certain races are inferior to others. And some ideas, by their very nature, can be powerful, persuasive, and controlling.

But, at the same time, I thought Photonic had a point. After all, an idea is only dangerous, or beneficial, if someone is acting upon it.

So, what do you think? Can ideas be held accountable?

We can trace effects back to causes, but I don't think that the concept of "accountability" works unless we're talking about people.

 

[Falvlun]

It isn't the words, the ideas, etc, it is intent behind them. So I don't think ideas could possibly be held accountable for anything. I'd hate to have the "thought police".

Funny. I never even considered the idea of "thought police" and yet that's immediately where 3 posters have gone so far. I think you can hold ideas responsible without punishing people for thinking them.

As for intent, yes, intent certainly does matter. But some concepts are malicious regardless of intent. A child believing that certain races are inferior to others isn't thinking that with a malicious intent; she's probably thinking that because that's what she's been taught. Doesn't mean that the concept is any less damaging and horrible, though.

 

[Desert Snake]

Is it an excuse to state that the reason the pins fell down is because the bowling ball hit them?

I do believe humans have free will. But I also believe that our choices are largely predicated upon our genetics and environment. We are oh so many pins hit by oh so many bowling balls of this world.

Mmm..somewhat. I don't view it as an "across the board" rule, though. That takes too much responsibility away from the individual IMO. Perhaps it's not a black/white issue, more like a grey area.

 

[waitasec]

Heard it in a song.....
'...what if your words could be judged as a crime?...'

There is some practice to that effect.

subjecting anyone to stay silent is more dangerous, wouldn't you say...?

 

[waitasec]

It isn't the words, the ideas, etc, it is intent behind them. So I don't think ideas could possibly be held accountable for anything. I'd hate to have the "thought police".

imo, the intent is a non issue...
an idea is an idea, and it's up to the individual to figure out if it's an idea that makes sense.

 

[Desert Snake]

imo, the intent is a non issue...
an idea is an idea, and it's up to the individual to figure out if it's an idea that makes sense.

I agree, otherwise intent can just be used as an excuse.

 

[bain-druie]

I like the comparison of guns with ideas, because both are potential weapons.

Ideas clearly cannot be held responsible directly, in the sense that a person espousing them can. The apportioning of blame between people and ideas, for atrocities that result from said people acting on said ideas, is a labor of Hercules.

The argument can be made that without the idea, the person would not have acted as they did.

Yet the argument can also be made that a person inclined to commit certain acts would find ideas to so motivate them.

When you bring in atrocities committed on a grand scale, such as the Nazi Regime's Holocaust, you're throwing additional ingredients into the pot. The ideas espoused by Hitler were spread to so many, not solely [or perhaps even primarily] on their own merits or because all of those people were inclined to embrace them, but because of Hitler's charisma.

Ideas are one branch of a virus; take out that branch, and you have a good chance of killing the virus.
In short, I believe that ideas are partially responsible for the actions of those who embrace them; they are not necessarily protagonists or antagonists, but they play important supporting roles.

 

[ChristineES]

Ideas are not actions, and more than likely, most ideas will never be actions. You can't control ideas that people come up with. It is, in a way, like a thought police. Because no one can have an idea without thinking it up first.
Of course, there are exceptions, as with anything else. FOR EXAMPLE: If a man talks about raping a woman (his neighbor, for instance) someone should be able to make sure this guy isn't really planning on doing it and stop him if he is.

Ideas don't do anything by themselves.

 

[Thief]

subjecting anyone to stay silent is more dangerous, wouldn't you say...?

None the less, your thoughts are your own....
unless you're hearing voices.

Too bad this thread is under general discussions.
Thoughts and feelings are of spirit.

 

[Thief]

And then there's the mastermind....

When the crime is finished the law wants to catch everyone....
including the guy that thought about it.