Can Non-Abrahamics and Abrahamics be from same God?

[InvestigateTruth]

Then why, in these discussions, is it almost entirely about Baha'i and very little to do with the tenets of Hinduism? I offered some time back for you to ask questions about Hinduism, but apparently you're not interested. Action does indeed speak louder than words. But then, in your defense, it is really hard to learn anything substantial about my faith, unless you actually practice it.

Mind you, I did ask some questions from you. Your view of all are God, or God is not separate from creation. The idea of Karma, and incarnation. These were some of your fundamental beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

There is a general misunderstanding that Bahais should be after getting everyone to join their religion. Indeed it is not the case!

The Baha'is I knew in the 70's were continuously focused on "teaching" efforts. I went with them to several Mass Teaching events. My best Baha'i friend divorced his wife because he wanted to go "pioneer" in the Marshall Islands and she didn't. Every Baha'i was encouraged to hold a fireside.That is not the case anymore?

 

[loverofhumanity]

Not permitted? How exactly do you plan to stop them? Tell then they can'd do that?

The language isn't about to happen. Globalisation has had some great side effects for diversity though. My city has areal mosaic of religion for example. Not something you'd see 5o years back. So tolerance is practically forced on the bigots, whether they're happy about it or not. Interestingly, I taught in a suburb 20 miles out, and one parent told me he moved away from the city because of 'too many foreigners'. I let him know my opinion. The following year he put his kids in a private christian school. His choice, but not good for tolerance.

We can only try and keep away from them so they don’t succeeed in turning us against each other.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

The Baha'is I knew in the 70's were continuously focused on "teaching" efforts. I went with them to several Mass Teaching events. My best Baha'i friend divorced his wife because he wanted to go "pioneer" in the Marshall Islands and she didn't. Every Baha'i was encouraged to hold a fireside.That is not the case anymore?

I see teaching the faith is different than trying to get everyone into the Religion. Bahais teach the faith, but anybody wants to enter the faith, it is their choice. I don't teach the faith with the hope or goal of making them Bahai. Let me express it another way: Bahai scriptures does not put any emphasis or advantage on increasing the number of registered Bahais. If you think that is not true, you are welcome to quote from Bahai Writings. I am not claiming I understand Bahai Faith fully.

 

[CG Didymus]

To me. It’s about applying the right remedy for the ills of each age. Today the illness i believe is disunity between black and white, nations and religions and the remedy I believe is the oneness of all humanity.

And what is the remedy to achieve the oneness of religion? Within each religion there is disunity. They can't agree on what the truth is. Baha'is come along and essentially say that every interpretation of every religion is wrong... except the interpretation given by Baha'u'llah. So not one Hindu sect or any sect of any religion is right. They are all believing in false things about God and his teachings.

That is not respecting and believing in each religion as important parts of a grand progression. That is saying that each religion had the truth, then lost it by allowing misinterpretation and man made additions to filter into and corrupt the original "pure" teachings from God. That, to me, sounds like you don't respect any other religion. But believe they are off track and need to listen to Baha'u'llah and see the error of their ways. So the remedy is for Baha'is to tell them they are wrong? Apparently, because that's what Baha'is are doing.

 

[CG Didymus]

The last time I checked this thread was in the religious debates section of this forum. We're here to discuss and debate religion, not hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Obviously Baha'is should be courteous, respectful and open minded. However discussion will inevitably involve differing perspectives of various religious beliefs along with critical analysis.

Whether the people here are Sikhs, Hindu, Buddhist, Jains or some of the other religions too many of them seem insulted by things Baha'is have said. Is that the way it should be? Shouldn't Baha'is be finding the ways to make the different religions come together?

 

[Vinayaka]

I wonder to what extent traditions are being affected simply by modernity and development?

In my personal experience, a lot. Just more opportunity externally ... second and third generation Hindus in the west aren't sticking with it, but this isn't unique to Hinduism by any means.

Mind you, I did ask some questions from you. Your view of all are God, or God is not separate from creation. The idea of Karma, and incarnation. These were some of your fundamental beliefs.

It's reincarnation, not incarnation. That pretty much sums it up about how willing you were to learn I suppose. I did take the effort to spell Baha'u'llah I think, although I may still have it wrong.

We can only try and keep away from them so they don’t succeeed in turning us against each other.

Bigotry comes in many forms. At least this guy wasn't sneaky, pretending to be tolerant, and then showing he wasn't.
'

 

[Dawnofhope]

Whether the people here are Sikhs, Hindu, Buddhist, Jains or some of the other religions too many of them seem insulted by things Baha'is have said. Is that the way it should be? Shouldn't Baha'is be finding the ways to make the different religions come together?

Baha'is should look towards the example of Abdu'l-Baha. There are many relevant statements he made which I believe he exemplified in his life.

1/ Neither give offence, nor take offence.

O army of God! Beware lest ye harm any soul, or make any heart to sorrow; lest ye wound any man with your words, be he known to you or a stranger, be he friend or foe. Pray ye for all; ask ye that all be blessed, all be forgiven. Beware, beware, lest any of you seek vengeance, even against one who is thirsting for your blood. Beware, beware, lest ye offend the feelings of another, even though he be an evil-doer, and he wish you ill. Look ye not upon the creatures, turn ye to their Creator. See ye not the never-yielding people, see but the Lord of Hosts. Gaze ye not down upon the dust, gaze upward at the shining sun, which hath caused every patch of darksome earth to glow with light.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 69-75

2/ Be wise about what to say and when.

Follow thou the way of thy Lord, and say not that which the ears cannot bear to hear, for such speech is like luscious food given to small children. However palatable, rare and rich the food may be, it cannot be assimilated by the digestive organs of a suckling child. Therefore unto every one who hath a right, let his settled measure be given.

‘Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who hear it.’ Such is the consummate wisdom to be observed in thy pursuits. Be not oblivious thereof, if thou wishest to be a man of action under all conditions. First diagnose the disease and identify the malady, then prescribe the remedy, for such is the perfect method of the skilful physician.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 268-269

The other side of the coin is Baha'is should yeach the cause of God, put forward the truth and refute that which is vain and false.

O my God, aid Thou Thy servant to raise up the Word, and to refute what is vain and false, to establish the truth, to spread the sacred verses abroad, reveal the splendors, and make the morning’s light to dawn in the hearts of the righteous.

Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’í Prayers: A Selection of Prayers Revealed by Bahá’u’lláh, the Báb, and ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Page 174

 

[Dawnofhope]

In my personal experience, a lot. Just more opportunity externally ... second and third generation Hindus in the west aren't sticking with it, but this isn't unique to Hinduism by any means.

That's certainly my experience of meeting people of Indian decent who grow up in New Zealand. Family values and education are highly regarded but the religious traditions don't seem too important. There is a tendancy to mirror the secular culture around them.

It would be interesting to consider how modernity and secular values have rubbed off on people living in India. I would suspect for many, Hindu is just cultural identification as being Indian is a national identity.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's certainly my experience of meeting people of Indian decent who grow up in New Zealand. Family values and education are highly regarded but the religious traditions don't seem too important. There is a tendancy to mirror the secular culture around them.

It would be interesting to consider how modernity and secular values have rubbed off on people living in India. I would suspect for many, Hindu is just cultural identification as being Indian is a national identity.

India is massive. What goes on in TN is very different from Goa, Delhi, Gujarat, or states the border Bangladesh. Even Indians have little handle on what's going on in the rest of the country.

We have a new wave of working Indian immigrants here in Canada. It seems they will do better sustaining their culture as they now have temples here, which means an uninterrupted flow of religion. 40 years ago, with no temples, the kids grew up totally in a foreign culture. Now, not so much. It's a pleasure to go to temple and see all the little kids. Everyone is happier.

 

[Dawnofhope]

India is massive. What goes on in TN is very different from Goa, Delhi, Gujarat, or states the border Bangladesh. Even Indians have little handle on what's going on in the rest of the country.

We have a new wave of working Indian immigrants here in Canada. It seems they will do better sustaining their culture as they now have temples here, which means an uninterrupted flow of religion. 40 years ago, with no temples, the kids grew up totally in a foreign culture. Now, not so much. It's a pleasure to go to temple and see all the little kids. Everyone is happier.

We're having a major effort to have a Hindu temple started in my city for much the same reasons.

The Japanese could do with a Shinto/Buddhist temple to achieve the same purpose.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It's reincarnation, not incarnation. That pretty much sums it up about how willing you were to learn I suppose. I did take the effort to spell Baha'u'llah I think, although I may still have it wrong.

'

Ya, I know the difference between incarnation and reincarnation. That was just kind of a typo, due typing too fast.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And what is the remedy to achieve the oneness of religion? Within each religion there is disunity. They can't agree on what the truth is. Baha'is come along and essentially say that every interpretation of every religion is wrong... except the interpretation given by Baha'u'llah. So not one Hindu sect or any sect of any religion is right. They are all believing in false things about God and his teachings.

That is not respecting and believing in each religion as important parts of a grand progression. That is saying that each religion had the truth, then lost it by allowing misinterpretation and man made additions to filter into and corrupt the original "pure" teachings from God. That, to me, sounds like you don't respect any other religion. But believe they are off track and need to listen to Baha'u'llah and see the error of their ways. So the remedy is for Baha'is to tell them they are wrong? Apparently, because that's what Baha'is are doing.

The common denominator of all religions and remedy to unite them all is that they all await a Promised One which is one and the same person. When they discover He has returned they will find themselves united. Many already have found this and are united already. But it will take time for people to determine this through their own investigation so it may take many centuries before religions unite.

Baha’u’llah states that....

Verily this is that Most Great Beauty, foretold in the Books of the Messengers,

So He claims that His authority comes from God and from the Holy Books of all religions. As Kalki Avatar, as Maitreya, Shah Bahram, as the Lord Of Hosts, as Christ returned in the Glory of the Father He is the Judge and further states..

Be thou assured in thyself that verily, he who turns away from this Beauty hath also turned away from the Messengers of the past and showeth pride towards God from all eternity to all eternity.

Here Baha’u’llah is saying that those who turn away from Him Who was Promised in their own Holy Books are rejecting their own recorded prophecies and their own Messenger Who gave them this promise of One to come after Them.

through Whom truth shall be distinguished from error and the wisdom of every command shall be tested

As the ‘Promised One of all religions’ Baha’u’llah says He has full right to judge truth from falsehood, to give the true meaning of the Holy Books and as the Lord of all religions His Word is the authority and standard for truth and everything is weighed in the balance of His teachings.

Of,people He says that..

For the people are wandering in the paths of delusion, bereft of discernment to see God with their own eyes, or hear His Melody with their own ears. Thus have We found them, as thou also dost witness. Thus have their superstitions become veils between them and their own hearts and kept them from the path of God, the Exalted, the Great.

He mentions that ...

O people, if ye deny these verses, by what proof have ye believed in God? Produce it, O assemblage of false ones.Nay, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, they are not, and never shall be able to do this, even should they combine to assist one another.

All the world can unite against Him but He says they will fail and all religions, all people will willingly and enthusiastically embrace His Cause eventually.

This will undoubtedly take many centuries as only free will and words and personal investigation can be used. No bribery or force.

When the victory arriveth, every man shall profess himself as believer and shall hasten to the shelter of God’s Faith. Happy are they who in the days of world-encompassing trials have stood fast in the Cause and refused to swerve from its truth. (Baha’u’llah)

 

[Vinayaka]

Ya, I know the difference between incarnation and reincarnation. That was just kind of a typo, due typing too fast.

Yes, I've seen this before, lots of times. Nice retraction, but I'm not fooled.

 

[wandering peacefully]

If we are trying to answer the question of a common God between the Abrahamics and Dharmic Faiths with reference to either Buddhist and Hindu sacred writings, it is impossible to answer. None of the Buddhist writings can be authenticated as to whether or not they were Buddha's actual words though it seems very likely that at least some of the writings attributed to the Buddha reflect what He actually taught. However we can't definitively distinguish with clarity what Buddha taught. Perhaps the Dharma (meaning Buddha's Teachings) really have been lost.

The problem is only confounded further in regards to the Vedas and other ancient Hindu writings. So if we are trying to ascertain the pure Teachings of Krishna or Buddha, it will be impossible to find agreement.

That is the wonderful thing about the teachings of Buddha; you do not have to "believe" in them because they are not a religion. They are wise words which anyone can live. A person can directly experience and live the words of Buddha. And it's always an individual's choice to live Buddha's words. It is a lifestyle and worldview not some words in a holy book written by a man with an ego the size of a god. Buddha would definitely not agree with your profit or his ego. So no, the two are not compatible worldviews. I don't think I need to go into individual thoughts and words from both men but I can if you would like.

 

[CG Didymus]

The other side of the coin is Baha'is should yeach the cause of God, put forward the truth and refute that which is vain and false.

O my God, aid Thou Thy servant to raise up the Word, and to refute what is vain and false, to establish the truth, to spread the sacred verses abroad, reveal the splendors, and make the morning’s light to dawn in the hearts of the righteous.

When we're talking about the different major religions all having the same God as their source, even within one religion, Christianity, it's hard to convince the others about God and what is false and vain. So many of the major sects and denominations in Christianity, including the first and biggest, the Catholics, believe God is a Trinity. Already, if the Jews, Muslims and Baha'is are right, they don't even know who God is. Their belief is false. So they can't be from the same God, because they don't believe in the same God.

Then many Protestants believe that Catholics are worshipping statues and Mary. Oh, and then most Christians believe their God created a great and beautiful angel that fell and became Satan. So their God has a minor evil god that is warring against him. So who they describe as being their God is not the same God of the Jews, Muslims and Baha'is. Then add in Buddhists, Hindus and the others from India. How do each describe who their God is?

I think those details are important, and that to say that the source of all religions is the one and same God, is too simplistic. I see it as the same Baha'i argument that all religions are one. Yes, they have some similarities, but it discounts all the differences. And, because of the differences, I put the Baha'i concept of "progressive" revelation in there also.

I understand that to say one God revealed truth about himself by sending messengers to different people. That each of those messages was only meant to get people to grow spiritually and to be prepared for the next set of instructions. But that is not what it looks like to me. It's more like all people created their own concept of gods and God. The religions they created were very much influenced by their culture and the times. Many religious beliefs and practices were horrible and, thankfully, done away with. So ideas about God and religion evolved.

But, in all these cases, was the source the one true God, or people's ideas about God? That is more how I see it. Which allows for the differences and allows for the "progression" and changes over time. It allows for a lot of "creative" writing of Scriptures with great wonders and miracles, which never happened, but were meant to get people to believe that God is great and powerful.

But then we get to Jesus and Baha'u'llah. I could see the early Christians still adding in embellished spiritual stories of Virgin Births, miraculous healings, walking on water, rising from the dead and then floating off to space. I don't see them as "symbolic". I would see them as fictional, mythical stories to make Jesus a God/man... or, if true, he is a God/man. What I don't like about those things being true, though, is it means all the other religions are wrong.

The problems I have with the Baha'i Faith I keep pointing out, but the big one is that if the Baha'is are right, then every other religion, as believed and practiced, is still wrong. Too many fundamental, core beliefs are said to be wrong either by misinterpreting or taking literal things that were written as being figurative. As you know, I don't see it that way. If the event, like the resurrection didn't happen, then it's a lie, a hoax. But then, how'd they get away with it? But also, if it didn't happen, then their beliefs about God are based on a fictional story or worse, a hoax. So that would mean they didn't come from God, their religion came from a fabricated story that was taken to be true... that led them to make Jesus God. And that is not the same God that many of the other religions would believe in.

Then their is reincarnation. From the one true God or from people? But who is the Hindu God? Who is the Buddhist God? I took a college course on all this, but I don't remember. I have to depend on the people that follow and believe in those religions. And reincarnation is intrinsic to their beliefs. I personally would like it. I could use a few more chances to get things right. Especially if Christianity is right. But, even with Baha'is, I'm not going to get to a very high level in the spiritual world. Is everything perfect and believable in the different Hindu religions? No, but are they growing and changing... and improving? Yes. That's why I like what they say. And I'd hate to have them give up on their beliefs because Baha'is and other religions disagree with their belief in reincarnation.

Anyway, thanks Adrian and the rest of the Baha'is. Your threads are my favorites.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Christianity, including the first and biggest, the Catholics, believe God is a Trinity. Already, if the Jews, Muslims and Baha'is are right, they don't even know who God is.

That is a key thought in all of this as No one knows who God is, not even the Messengers.

Now those that claim they do, claim falsely. A Mesenger Claims a Message from God, that they were created for that Message and in that Station they are that Message, not God.

Baha'u'llah has asked you to consider, who would contemplate giving such a Message knowing of the consequences? One would have to be mad, or who they claim to be.

The problems I have with the Baha'i Faith I keep pointing out, but the big one is that if the Baha'is are right, then every other religion, as believed and practiced, is still wrong.

Then your problem is with all people of Faith, as history has shown that it is not just the Baha'i, all Faiths have this firm foundation. The progression of Prophets in the Bible show that God renews His Message, in fact it is God's Covenant to us that we will not be left alone.

The Jews have not accepted Christ, the Jews and Christains have not Accepted Muhammad, The Jews, Christains and Muslims have not accepted Baha'u'llah. This is now part of History.

Thus it comes back to logic, are we one people or not? If we are one people, we will find advice in all Faiths to treat each other as we would like to be treated. Thus can this be found in all Faiths, yes.

Man is very vain, how can we know what created us, apart what God has willed we can know?

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

The Baha'is I knew in the 70's were continuously focused on "teaching" efforts. I went with them to several Mass Teaching events. My best Baha'i friend divorced his wife because he wanted to go "pioneer" in the Marshall Islands and she didn't. Every Baha'i was encouraged to hold a fireside.That is not the case anymore?

We are told we must live balanced lives with moderation and that the home and family are very important as is our religion and both need to be given ample attention. It is a matter of balance.

“the home is an institution that Bahá’u’lláh has come to strengthen and not to weaken. Many unfortunate things have happened in Bahá’í homes just for neglecting this point. Serve the Cause but also remember your duties towards your home. It is for you to find the balance and see that neither makes you neglect the other.”

(Shoghi Effendi)

 

[Vinayaka]

We are told we must live balanced lives with moderation and that the home and family are very important as is our religion and both need to be given ample attention. It is a matter of balance.

“the home is an institution that Bahá’u’lláh has come to strengthen and not to weaken. Many unfortunate things have happened in Bahá’í homes just for neglecting this point. Serve the Cause but also remember your duties towards your home. It is for you to find the balance and see that neither makes you neglect the other.”

(Shoghi Effendi)

We? You mean Baha'i, right? It's tough to maintain a balance if someone has strong faith, and the spouse doesn't. To me, family harmony IS the religion. Divorce rates are high these days, although I'm not sure of all the contributing factors. Certainly religious differences is one of them.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Whether the people here are Sikhs, Hindu, Buddhist, Jains or some of the other religions too many of them seem insulted by things Baha'is have said. Is that the way it should be? Shouldn't Baha'is be finding the ways to make the different religions come together?

Why do you think Messengers of God were tortured, crucified, stoned, exiled imprisoned and treated so cruelly?

They didn’t come to appease and Their appearance caused a great tumult and consternation in the hearts as They rejected what was being taught at the time and so They suffered horribly.

We Baha’is can’t expect to be immune from hostility, indifference and even persecution for teaching things contrary to what others have believed in for thousands of years. So sometimes we are just between a rock and a hard place.