Can Non-Abrahamics and Abrahamics be from same God?

[CG Didymus]

It's simple. When you can't explain something, withdraw from the discussion. Try to change the topic, divert, etc. first, and finally, withdraw. I'm particularly glad not to be in this one, as i am a total idiot on all things biblical.

It's a little sad that they are so quick to say that The Bab and Baha'u'llah have fulfilled all the prophecies of every religion. Yet, they can't satisfactorily explain the Book of Revelation. But, you know, even the prophecy that gets us to, supposedly, the return of Christ in I844, is not Baha'u'llah, but The Bab. So way too much manipulation for me. What they've got going for them is that nobody knows what's really going on in Revelation. They could make up anything they wanted and somehow make it sound plausible... and they do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Sorry missed all this CG. Personally I just see it is not as complicated as we would think.

Well Tony, it don't look like you're interested in answering, so I'll just add a few things to my post that relate to the question. In Revelation chapter 11 the nations will "tread" under foot the holy city for 42 months. Very next verse has the "two witnesses" prophesying for 1260 days. Then, after they finish their testimony, a beast comes and kills them. Their bodies lie in the street for 31/2 days. After that they come back to life. And that is the end of the "Second Woe". Which Baha'is say is the Bab. The "First Woe", which Baha'is say is Muhammad had ended two chapters earlier.

These are just all reference to the year 1260 when the Bab Message abrogated Islam and made all things new. Islam through Ottoman rule, had control of the Holy land when this event occurred. In that same year the Edict of Toleration have religious freedom which instigated the return of the Holy land to the Jews.

Next chapter, a woman is about to give birth but a dragon is waiting to devour the child. She gives birth and flees to the wilderness for 1260 days. Then we get to chapter 13. So it is after all the rest of this stuff happens, then that's when this other beast comes on the scene and has power for 42 months. Then, another beast arises and makes everyone worship the first beast. So since the first beast had power for 42 months, this should be after that time had elapsed, right?

Again when we see Times,Time and half a time, 3 & 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days, it is only reference to the year 1260.

All the events mentioned happened within the time span of Muhammads Revelation.

We do not have to calculate a series of events to get that number.

Now this beast is the one that has 666 associated with it. But, Baha'is make the number 666 the date of the start of the Umayyad dynasty in 661AD and get to 666 by adding five years to it because Jesus wasn't born in year zero, but approximately a few years before that. So Baha'is say 5 is a good number, because it gets them to 666.

The reference of the beast is to the Umayyad dynasty.

It had 7 kingdoms and 10 rulers. The Metephor is strongly in favor of this history.

So show me the math again? And how you don't manipulate the number to get everything to revert back to 621AD so you can get 1260 days, 31/2 days and 42 months to all get you to 1844?

William Miller calculated the date from Daniel using the 3rd rebuild of BC457 and then the 2300 years until the sanctuary was cleansed.

-457 + 2300 = 1843 + 1 as no year Zero = 1844. In his original calculation he forgot about no year 0. This 1844 became firm beleif.

1844 is also the year 1260, no calculation needed. As the Bible said Muhammad would have power of prophecy for 1260 years. That ended with the Declaration of the Bab in the year 1260. No calculation needed, it was also 1844.

The stories are amazing about those that were ready for the Message and those that.accepted it in those days, a lot of them being well respected Muslim Clergy.

One of the most renown was sent by the Shah of Persia to interogate the Bab and give His advice. He was so well versed in Islamic tradition that he knew over 30 thousand traditions by memory alone. He has told His own story and it is worth a read. It took 3 meetings on the 3rd he had forgotten all the questions he was going to ask and could say nothing. The Bab served Him and unasked answered all the questions he had prepared for that day. From that moment on he accepted the Message of the Bab and went on and accepted Baha'u'llah.

The year 1844/1260 was the dawn of the new day of God, absolutely no doubt about it.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

There's never been any evidence or occurrences of demons or ill-intentioned spirits in Hinduism plaguing humans.

And here I thought some guy from NJ was just that. Good to know he wasn't a demon.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's a little sad that they are so quick to say that The Bab and Baha'u'llah have fulfilled all the prophecies of every religion. Yet, they can't satisfactorily explain the Book of Revelation. But, you know, even the prophecy that gets us to, supposedly, the return of Christ in I844, is not Baha'u'llah, but The Bab. So way too much manipulation for me. What they've got going for them is that nobody knows what's really going on in Revelation. They could make up anything they wanted and somehow make it sound plausible... and they do.

There is very very little that the Baha'i philosophy can explain. It's just a good thing that actions speak far louder than words, as people of all faiths, despite holding illogical unscientific dreamy philosophy, can still be good neighbours. Neighbours need not talk beliefs.

 

[Jainarayan]

And here I thought some guy from NJ was just that. Good to know he wasn't a demon.

Wellll... it's a matter of perspective. bwahahaha

 

[CG Didymus]

Regards Tony

CG Didymus said: ↑
In Revelation chapter 11 the nations will "tread" under foot the holy city for 42 months. Very next verse has the "two witnesses" prophesying for 1260 days. Then, after they finish their testimony, a beast comes and kills them. Their bodies lie in the street for 31/2 days. After that they come back to life. And that is the end of the "Second Woe". Which Baha'is say is the Bab. The "First Woe", which Baha'is say is Muhammad had ended two chapters earlier.

Tony said:
These are just all reference to the year 1260 when the Bab Message abrogated Islam and made all things new. Islam through Ottoman rule, had control of the Holy land when this event occurred. In that same year the Edict of Toleration have religious freedom which instigated the return of the Holy land to the Jews.

My new question:
First, since there are so many prophecies that Baha'is use to get to specific dates, are there any that get to Islam started in 621AD? From 621AD adding 1260 years to get to 1844 is great, but that's not Baha'u'llah. Why is the most important prophecy date gets us to The Bab, a person hardly mentioned... except for the date he declared his mission in 1844? Why isn't Baha'u'llah's declaration date isn't the most important one?

Second, since the two witnesses have already done their thing for the 1260 days, why make them being dead in the street for 31/2 days start and stop at the same dates, 621 to 1844?

CG Didymus said: ↑
Next chapter, a woman is about to give birth but a dragon is waiting to devour the child. She gives birth and flees to the wilderness for 1260 days. Then we get to chapter 13. So it is after all the rest of this stuff happens, then that's when this other beast comes on the scene and has power for 42 months. Then, another beast arises and makes everyone worship the first beast. So since the first beast had power for 42 months, this should be after that time had elapsed, right?


Tony said:
Again when we see Times,Time and half a time, 3 & 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days, it is only reference to the year 1260.
All the events mentioned happened within the time span of Muhammads Revelation.

New question: Who is this child? I thought some Baha'is said it was The Bab? But, this 1260 days happens after the child is born, then the woman flees to the wilderness. Why does this prophecy also start and stop at 621 to 1844? But then comes the beast, which Baha'is say is the Umayyads. They didn't take power in 621 and didn't last all the way through to 1844. So they did not have power for the 42 months that Baha'is convert to 1260 years. But then comes another beast... which Baha'is say is the Abbasids. They did not make everyone worship the first beast, the Umayyads.
But, this beast can't be the Abbasids, because it has 666 associated with it. And Baha'is make the number 666 the date of the start of the Umayyad dynasty in 661AD.

So, it is so easy for you to see how all this works, but to me, it doesn't. It has too many things that have to be manipulated to get them all to work. The 666 beast comes way later from the beast Baha'is say is the Umayyads. None of them, the Umayyads nor the Abbasids, started nor lasted from 621 to 1844. If prophecies aren't exact enough to be obvious, then what good are they? Anyone can make them into anything they want... and they do.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

CG Didymus said: ↑
In Revelation chapter 11 the nations will "tread" under foot the holy city for 42 months. Very next verse has the "two witnesses" prophesying for 1260 days. Then, after they finish their testimony, a beast comes and kills them. Their bodies lie in the street for 31/2 days. After that they come back to life. And that is the end of the "Second Woe". Which Baha'is say is the Bab. The "First Woe", which Baha'is say is Muhammad had ended two chapters earlier.

Tony said:
These are just all reference to the year 1260 when the Bab Message abrogated Islam and made all things new. Islam through Ottoman rule, had control of the Holy land when this event occurred. In that same year the Edict of Toleration have religious freedom which instigated the return of the Holy land to the Jews.

My new question:
First, since there are so many prophecies that Baha'is use to get to specific dates, are there any that get to Islam started in 621AD? From 621AD adding 1260 years to get to 1844 is great, but that's not Baha'u'llah. Why is the most important prophecy date gets us to The Bab, a person hardly mentioned... except for the date he declared his mission in 1844? Why isn't Baha'u'llah's declaration date isn't the most important one?

Second, since the two witnesses have already done their thing for the 1260 days, why make them being dead in the street for 31/2 days start and stop at the same dates, 621 to 1844?

CG Didymus said: ↑
Next chapter, a woman is about to give birth but a dragon is waiting to devour the child. She gives birth and flees to the wilderness for 1260 days. Then we get to chapter 13. So it is after all the rest of this stuff happens, then that's when this other beast comes on the scene and has power for 42 months. Then, another beast arises and makes everyone worship the first beast. So since the first beast had power for 42 months, this should be after that time had elapsed, right?


Tony said:
Again when we see Times,Time and half a time, 3 & 1/2 years, 42 months or 1260 days, it is only reference to the year 1260.
All the events mentioned happened within the time span of Muhammads Revelation.

New question: Who is this child? I thought some Baha'is said it was The Bab? But, this 1260 days happens after the child is born, then the woman flees to the wilderness. Why does this prophecy also start and stop at 621 to 1844? But then comes the beast, which Baha'is say is the Umayyads. They didn't take power in 621 and didn't last all the way through to 1844. So they did not have power for the 42 months that Baha'is convert to 1260 years. But then comes another beast... which Baha'is say is the Abbasids. They did not make everyone worship the first beast, the Umayyads.
But, this beast can't be the Abbasids, because it has 666 associated with it. And Baha'is make the number 666 the date of the start of the Umayyad dynasty in 661AD.

So, it is so easy for you to see how all this works, but to me, it doesn't. It has too many things that have to be manipulated to get them all to work. The 666 beast comes way later from the beast Baha'is say is the Umayyads. None of them, the Umayyads nor the Abbasids, started nor lasted from 621 to 1844. If prophecies aren't exact enough to be obvious, then what good are they? Anyone can make them into anything they want... and they do.

CG, seriously, If it is such an issue forget it, forget it all, it is not needed, it is but a major distraction.

I never read a Holy Book or knew anything about any other faith when I found the Faith I embraced. It was the heart of my wonderful wife, then the hearts of the Baha'i I met, before the main teachings attracted me. These to name a few being the oneness of humanity, the oneness of God, the elimination of prejudices, the equality of men and women and education for all. Are these needed in this day is the key, as we are told the Measenger brings the required elixer for the age.

If Baha'u'llah is who he says he is, then the gift will no doubt come to you and in your own way.

Regards Tony

 

[Muffled]

There's never been any evidence or occurrences of demons or ill-intentioned spirits in Hinduism plaguing humans. Hinduism doesn't believe in them. If they do exist, our disbelief in them probably takes away any power they might have. I believe that something only has the power we give it. However, there are classes of beings that give the gods a hard time and often go to war with them. Ultimately the gods have always been victorious.

I believe demons tend to come as angels of light intending to deceive. A lack of belief in the isn't going to prevent them from working their evil ways.

I believe if the gods are aliens and the evidence seems to point that way then they do have other aliens who are enemies.

 

[Muffled]

What lack of evidence?
E=MC2
Proof by exhaution
Childhood leukemia
The mosquito
The futility of prayer
I could go on to provid around 60 other evidences for lack of god, gods or their described attributes.

Whether you accept those evidences us the question, not whether they exist

I believe those are evidences that there is God.

 

[ChristineM]

I believe those are evidences that there is God.

So god is :-
Not omnipotent
Shows himself to everyone
Is a child killer
Created an insect to kill his prize creation
And answers prayers

 

[ManSinha]

I believe those are evidences that there is God.

And I am starting to wonder about the credulity of that belief

 

[ManSinha]

So god is :-
Not omnipotent
Shows himself to everyone
Is a child killer
Created an insect to kill his prize creation
And answers prayers

View attachment 27811

God does none of those things - he cannot - as he is a figment of people's imagination (and hope)

 

[ChristineM]

God does none of those things - he cannot - as he is a figment of people's imagination (and hope)

Precisely.

 

[Jainarayan]

I believe demons tend to come as angels of light intending to deceive.

But deceive us into doing what? I hear and see all this talk of demons in disguise leading people astray, but astray into what? And just who are these demons in disguise? What are some instances and experiences? See, my view of it is that people are simply fixated on demons and evil.

 

[CG Didymus]

I believe the Ba'hais emerged from the Islamic community which is Abrahamic.

I don't know if you've heard that Baha'is believe that Ishmael, not Isaac, was the son taken to be sacrificed. They use that to make ties from Abraham for Islam and themselves stronger. Only problem is they make what is written in Genesis wrong when it says that it was Isaac. And, since the NT backs that up, the Baha'is say that the NT got it wrong too. When and how did this "change" or "mistake" happen? They don't know, but they say it was probably a scribal error. Little things like that is what annoys me the most about an otherwise great sounding and practical religion. Oh, except for being so closely related to Islam. So close I call them "Islam light". Like in being a liberal form of mostly Islam. Obviously not much in common with Hindus and Buddhists, but they keep trying to find ways to show a relationship.

 

[CG Didymus]

CG, seriously, If it is such an issue forget it, forget it all, it is not needed, it is but a major distraction.

I never read a Holy Book or knew anything about any other faith when I found the Faith I embraced. It was the heart of my wonderful wife, then the hearts of the Baha'i I met, before the main teachings attracted me. These to name a few being the oneness of humanity, the oneness of God, the elimination of prejudices, the equality of men and women and education for all. Are these needed in this day is the key, as we are told the Measenger brings the required elixer for the age.

If Baha'u'llah is who he says he is, then the gift will no doubt come to you and in your own way.

Regards Tony

Yes, and most Baha'i do forget all the tough issues. Do you really think that Jews should recognized Jesus, as some did, only to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be made part of a Trinitarian God? They asked the tough questions about Jesus and he did not all fulfill the prophesies. And many verses that Christians called prophecies were not. They were out of context, exaggerations. Baha'i do the same thing. Plus, they make key verses, that are historical narrative, symbolic. Why not just call them made up embellished, exaggerations... or myth? If Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies in Revelation, he should have explained the whole book. He didn't. His son didn't. So now who will? Some Baha'i scholar?

If you say you have a religion that has fulfilled all the promises and prophecies, you have to prove it, not avoid it and just blow it off as a "major distraction." If you don't know the answer or Baha'u'llah didn't address it, then just say so. But Baha'is keep playing the game of twisting things and using "symbolic" to explain everything... or the old, "this is a man made tradition" like with reincarnation, "and was not in the ever elusive original teachings" On the surface, if you want go just by your basic beliefs, the Baha'i Faith is fine. But if you can't answer the deeper questions, don't expect people to "see the light" and leave their religion for something that's not that much better.

And, since all religions are ever-changing and evolving, they taking on many of the things Baha'is believe any, but keeping true to most of their religions beliefs. Like Judaism, they're still around and holding fast. Like Buddhism and Hinduism, they both have so much to offer that Baha'is don't and can't. I hope all those religious expressions stay strong and get stronger. And what about the Sikhs? That sounds very interesting... maybe better than the Baha'i Faith, for me anyway, because they still include reincarnation. Something I would enjoy immensely. I love living on Earth and growing with each new life.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, and most Baha'i do forget all the tough issues. Do you really think that Jews should recognized Jesus, as some did, only to have Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be made part of a Trinitarian God? They asked the tough questions about Jesus and he did not all fulfill the prophesies. And many verses that Christians called prophecies were not. They were out of context, exaggerations. Baha'i do the same thing. Plus, they make key verses, that are historical narrative, symbolic. Why not just call them made up embellished, exaggerations... or myth? If Baha'u'llah has fulfilled the prophecies in Revelation, he should have explained the whole book. He didn't. His son didn't. So now who will? Some Baha'i scholar?

If you say you have a religion that has fulfilled all the promises and prophecies, you have to prove it, not avoid it and just blow it off as a "major distraction." If you don't know the answer or Baha'u'llah didn't address it, then just say so. But Baha'is keep playing the game of twisting things and using "symbolic" to explain everything... or the old, "this is a man made tradition" like with reincarnation, "and was not in the ever elusive original teachings" On the surface, if you want go just by your basic beliefs, the Baha'i Faith is fine. But if you can't answer the deeper questions, don't expect people to "see the light" and leave their religion for something that's not that much better.

And, since all religions are ever-changing and evolving, they taking on many of the things Baha'is believe any, but keeping true to most of their religions beliefs. Like Judaism, they're still around and holding fast. Like Buddhism and Hinduism, they both have so much to offer that Baha'is don't and can't. I hope all those religious expressions stay strong and get stronger........

Did you every read the Kitabi-iqan, it covers all those questions?

That book answered most of my personal misunderstandings.

And what about the Sikhs? That sounds very interesting... maybe better than the Baha'i Faith, for me anyway, because they still include reincarnation. Something I would enjoy immensely. I love living on Earth and growing with each new life.

Go for it, follow your heart. God gives what it is looking for. I wish you well in all those lives.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Did you every read the Kitabi-iqan, it covers all those questions?

That book answered most of my personal misunderstandings.



Go for it, follow your heart. God gives what it is looking for. I wish you well in all those lives.

Regards Tony

Thanks

 

[ManSinha]

Something I would enjoy immensely. I love living on Earth and growing with each new life.

That is fine - but at the end of a "good" life you are at the end of the line - don't get to come back