Can Non-Abrahamics and Abrahamics be from same God?

[InvestigateTruth]

I'm not exactly sure.

On one hand I cannot fathom why Vishnu (my first favorite form of God) would act or show himself in one way in the Mahabharata, Ramayana, and in the stories in the Puranas, and act or show himself another way, and say other things to Moses and the Hebrews, and to Muhammad. This is even stretching "everyone sees God in their own way" to its breaking point. If it's not the same God, then it's just another deity from another pantheon running amok in the cosmos, and running afoul of the smackdown Vishnu gonna lay on him.

On the other hand, if it is indeed the same God, and it's not God who misrepresented himself, then it's his followers, and let's call it like it is... Abrahamics... who completely misheard, misinterpreted and misunderstood what he was saying. But in fairness it's not only Abrahamics who have a talent for twisting what God says, Hindus on occasion have been known to do the same. So then God can't be held accountable for his followers, and the Rig Veda is correct: ekam sat vipra bahudha vadanti "one truth the sages call by many names".

At the end of the day, people are free to worship whatever God or image of God appeals to them, just leave others alone to worship in their way.

He appeared according to His mission, and according to expectations of the People of the Time and Location, and the way the People would be able to accept Him better.
I also quote Bahaullah:


"Were any of the all-embracing Manifestations of God to declare: “I am God!” He, verily, speaketh the truth, and no doubt attacheth thereto. For it hath been repeatedly demonstrated that through their Revelation, their attributes and names, the Revelation of God, His name and His attributes, are made manifest in the world. ...And were any of them to voice the utterance: “I am the Messenger of God,” He also speaketh the truth, the indubitable truth. ....Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. .......And were they to say: “We are the servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain..."

"...each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation."

 

[Marcion]

....Viewed in this light, they are all but Messengers of that ideal King, that unchangeable Essence. .......And were they to say: “We are the servants of God,” this also is a manifest and indisputable fact. For they have been made manifest in the uttermost state of servitude, a servitude the like of which no man can possibly attain..."

"...each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined Revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfills a definite Mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation."

Bahaullah was formed by Islam and did not know the non-Abrahamic spiritual scriptures well enough to realize that Shrii Krishna and Shrii Shiva cannot and should not be reduced to a mere "Messenger of an ideal King" but are the Lord Himself visiting us (humanity) in our collective moment of utmost need. They were certainly not subject to "specially designated limitations" but in full control of their mission.

This was beyond Bahaullah's understanding and given the culture and time he was born into, he cannot and should not be blamed for that.
His universal and unifying spirit nevertheless makes him a great man, I would say a Maha-rishi of sorts, although I must admit I know too little about him still.

 

[Jainarayan]

He appeared according to His mission, and according to expectations of the People of the Time and Location, and the way the People would be able to accept Him better.

That's entirely possible, and a valid way of looking at it. In which case I think it goes to this point: "On the other hand, if it is indeed the same God, and it's not God who misrepresented himself, then it's his followers".

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Bahaullah was formed by Islam and did not know the non-Abrahamic spiritual scriptures well enough to realize that Shrii Krishna and Shrii Shiva cannot and should not be reduced to a mere "Messenger of an ideal King" but are the Lord Himself visiting us (humanity) in our collective moment of utmost need. They were certainly not subject to "specially designated limitations" but in full control of their mission.

This was beyond Bahaullah's understanding and given the culture and time he was born into, he cannot and should not be blamed for that.
His universal and unifying spirit nevertheless makes him a great man, I would say a Maha-rishi of sorts, although I must admit I know too little about him still.

Consider the Christains also see Jesus Christ as God.

Muhammad told us they are all Messengers from God. Baha'u'llah has shown in the above quoted passages as to how they can be seen as God when we consider what a Messenger is.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

So in baha'i theology, God does not create human souls? Because the quoted Gita verses clearly says that the souls are beginningless and endless.
And saying that "neither I nor you have never not existed, nor will you or I ever cease to exist" does not, in any way whatsoever be taken to mean that somehow the human community has always existed.


Further consider Chapter 4 verse 5. Where He clearly says that both Arjuna and Himself have been reincarnated many times.


The Blessed Lord spoke:
Many of My births have passed away,
And also yours, Arjuna.
I know them all; You do not know them, Arjuna.

Although I am birthless and My nature is imperishable,
Although I am the Lord of all beings,
Yet, by controlling My own material nature,
I come into being by My own power.

For the protection of the good
And the destruction of evil doers,
For the sake of establishing righteousness,
I am born in every age.

Further consider Chapter 6, verse 40 Krishna talks about what happens to virtuous souls that do not attain perfection in one lifetime,

The Blessed Lord spoke:
Arjuna, neither here on earth nor in heaven above
Is there found to be destruction of him' ,
No one who does good goes to misfortune, My Son.

Attaining the worlds of the meritorious,
Having dwelt there for endless years,
He who has fallen from yoga is born again
In the dwelling of the radiant and the illustrious.

Or he may be born in the family
Of wise meditators;
Such a birth as this is very difficult
To attain in the world.

There he regains the knowledge
Derived from a former body,
And he strives onward once more
Toward perfection, Arjuna.


How would you explain so many reference to rebirth in almost all chapters?

The Bahai Writings say that God created and designed man but that we existed from eternity to eternity. If we did not exist on this earth then we existed somewhere else. We view the Biblical story of creation as symbolical of the 7 Days of God or 7 religions created by God in the Adamic Cycle. But Manifestations of God have always existed before then only we don’t have records of them.

Krishna says He is born from age to age to renew the principles of religion and destroy wickedness which is why we believe Baha’u’llah to be Kalki, the Tenth Avatar. (Kalki Purana)

As to His rebirth. We are told the Manifestations of God are pre existent, that is Their Souls are not conceived in this world but They pre existed in a different world whilst our souls are conceived at birth in the human womb in this world.

Krishna is explaining to Arjuna His pre existent states and that He can recall ALL His births while Aerjuna cannot becsuse Arjuna is not pre existent although humanity has always existed through countless generations or births.

He then goes on to describe the importance of spiritual knowledge to Arjuna and says that transcendental knowledge can enable one to be detached from desire, passion, self and ego and cause one to attain Supreme spiritual peace.

In 4:32 Lord Krishna states that ‘the truth shall set us free’, liberate us (from our attachments to desire) if we come to know Him we shall be liberated from bondage to our desires and passions and earthly possessions and attachments and be at one with the Lord and experience the bliss of nearness to Him.

In the Gita Lord Krishna says that with spiritual knowledge we can overcome all sin even if we be the worst sinner in the world.

The Next World

As Baha’u’llah explained so too does Lord Krishna refer in this chapter to only the next world in this striking passage clearly supporting the argument that we pass onto another world not return to this one thus debunking once and for all in His Own Words the concept of reincarnation.

Gita 4:40

But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next.

 

[Marcion]

Consider the Christains also see Jesus Christ as God.

Muhammad told us they are all Messengers from God. Baha'u'llah has shown in the above quoted passages as to how they can be seen as God when we consider what a Messenger is.

Lord Shiva and Lord Krishna however, have themselves already described who They are.
There is no need for another description that goes against the depth and meaning of the original ones unless you want to see Them as deceivers or worse even as fools.

Christians see Jesus as God because he is their guru or master who said that (as a true realised mystic) he was one with his Father and gave demonstrations of his occult powers.
There are however many criteria in Tantra which have to be met before you can consider such a special personality as God in the sense of someone who is in full control of their own destiny and capable of changing the course of humanity back towards dharma.

Baha'ullah and Muhammed will have developed their own criteria for their messenger theory but it does not live up to those high criteria I feel sorry to say.

I don't see myself as a Hindu but the spiritual philosophies of India are in a totally different league to what the Abrahamic religions managed to produce. Mysticism is the same everywhere, but that is different matter. It isn't a competition but nevertheless the fact of the matter has to be recognized, India is the world's most important hub of all spiritual philosophy.

 

[Jainarayan]

why we believe Baha’u’llah to be Kalki, the Tenth Avatar. (Kalki Purana)

Two problems with this:

1. Kalki is predicted to arrive at the end of Kali yuga, which in turn is predicted to be 432,000 years long, from the time of the end of Dvapara yuga. We have another 429,898 years to go. I can't wait that long.
2. Kalki is predicted to be born into a Brahmin family in what is probably now Nepal. He is supposed to begin his clean up on a white horse carrying a sword. That could be a metaphor for some type of modern vehicle and weapon, maybe a white SUV and an AK-47, or their equivalent 428,898 years from now.

It's quite nice when other cultures and traditions pay homage to another, but when the original beliefs are changed and edited, that's what begins the jimmy-rustling.

 

[Jainarayan]

In the Gita Lord Krishna says that with spiritual knowledge we can overcome all sin even if we be the worst sinner in the world.

Actually it's fixing one's mind, heart and soul on Him that renders the most vile sinner to be saintly. Because, as He says, the devotee will be properly situated in his determination and resolve. Not about knowledge, but devotion.

 

[Vinayaka]

It's quite nice when other cultures and traditions pay homage to another, but when the original beliefs are changed and edited, that's what begins the jimmy-rustling.

Interfaith and harmony amongst folks just works so much better when people stick to practicing their own tradition well, and let others be. An inherent problem here is that criticising other's traditions IS PART of the tradition. So it's hard to be nice without going against your own tradition. Just as proselytising is a core practice of some faiths, in order to ask one to stop, you're asking them to go against their tradition. Seems we're stuck with it.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Kalki is predicted to arrive at the end of Kali yuga, which in turn is predicted to be 432,000 years long, from the time of the end of Dvapara yuga. We have another 429,898 years to go. I can't wait that long.

I can see a personal thought with what you offered.

It is very interesting as in ancient use of numbers, 432,000 would be reduced to 9.

Baha'u'llah received His Message in the year 9 of the Babs Revelation or 1852. (Bab declared in 1844 and said in the year 9 a Message would dawn. That was the 9th year.

The white horse and sword is also biblical. The white horse is Baha'u'llah and the Sword is the Word that He speaks. This word cuts long held traditions from what is truth.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

Please read the GGS ( guru grant sahib) in english. also the bhagwat geeta. both are monotheistic . guru nanak dev ji was a farmer before he got a revelation , there is no book that can be compared to the ggs for the remarkable way it was written it breaks the quran's surah like it challenge like a boss... the miracles that were performed by all of them have been documented .. Unless you believe that your "god" only speaks in western languages. Here is a link for GGS -

http://old.sgpc.net/CDN/English Translation of Siri Guru Granth Sahib.pdf


Both ggs and bhagwat geeta are monotheist and have reincarnation explained.

As I understand it reincarnation is a man made interpretation of scriptures that has been debunked by all the Manifestations of God.

I believe a too literal interpretation of the Gita has led to a misinterpretation and that the Gita definitely does not teach reincarnation in any form whatsoever.

As to Guru Nanak. Thank you for the Book. He is considered a wonderful soul but as he was not a Manifestation of God he did not possess the knowledge only They possess which clearly state that reincarnation is a misconception.

We believe that what Bahá'u'lláh has revealed and Abdu'l-Bahá has written is from God, and divinely inspired; that Bahá'u'lláh is a Manifestation of God, and has access to a knowledge denied to ordinary human beings.'" (Letter written to an individual believer, April 22, 1954 on behalf of the Guardian

 

[Vinayaka]

As I understand it reincarnation is a man made interpretation of scriptures that has been debunked by all the Manifestations of God.

Yeah, that goes well for interfaith harmony, a something the Baha'i supposedly cherish. Pretty much sums up my feeling about Baha'i, I have nothing against Baha'i beliefs about Baha'i, other than those that involve criticism of other faiths. The Christians are wrong, the Muslims are wrong, the Hindus are wrong. Everyone is wrong except us. How does this build religious harmony?

Too bad it seems that most of Baha'i belief IS entirely about saying the other guys are wrong.

But look out if somebody dare speak ill of some of the Baha'i beliefs. Then it's unfair, unreasonable. And yet, amazingly this obvious double standard remains oblivious. You just can't see it, can you?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Two problems with this:

1. Kalki is predicted to arrive at the end of Kali yuga, which in turn is predicted to be 432,000 years long, from the time of the end of Dvapara yuga. We have another 429,898 years to go. I can't wait that long.
2. Kalki is predicted to be born into a Brahmin family in what is probably now Nepal. He is supposed to begin his clean up on a white horse carrying a sword. That could be a metaphor for some type of modern vehicle and weapon, maybe a white SUV and an AK-47, or their equivalent 428,898 years from now.

It's quite nice when other cultures and traditions pay homage to another, but when the original beliefs are changed and edited, that's what begins the jimmy-rustling.

Here has some references to Hindu Prophecies from Bahai POV.

4 - Hindu Prophecies

 

[1213]

So, God is like a Doctor who prescribes teachings to cure the spiritual as well as other problems of a people. If a doctor, prescribes Antibiotic to a person one day, but he prescribes a different medication to a different person at a different time, would that be contradictory? To Jews, He gave the Laws. To Muslims Quran with different Laws. To Hindus, a different set of teachings. Each is suitable for a specific people at a different time.

I don’t claim and I don’t think God has given contradictory teachings to people. If some have contradictory teachings, they are not from God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Two problems with this:

1. Kalki is predicted to arrive at the end of Kali yuga, which in turn is predicted to be 432,000 years long, from the time of the end of Dvapara yuga. We have another 429,898 years to go. I can't wait that long.
2. Kalki is predicted to be born into a Brahmin family in what is probably now Nepal. He is supposed to begin his clean up on a white horse carrying a sword. That could be a metaphor for some type of modern vehicle and weapon, maybe a white SUV and an AK-47, or their equivalent 428,898 years from now.

It's quite nice when other cultures and traditions pay homage to another, but when the original beliefs are changed and edited, that's what begins the jimmy-rustling.

Thank you. I belueve tyst the Scriptures of religions are primarily spiritual books with parables, symbolic meanings and stories to teach morals not so much that every would should be taken literally.

When the spiritually minded read these books I believe they will see the spiritual truths behind it not just it’s literal meaning.

Let’s take for instance the time. It simply to me means a long time or age not necessarily the large number mentioned but an emphasis on the distant future.

More specifically about Kalki being born into a Brahmin family and in Nepal. Why so literal? When Jesus says things like ‘let the dead bury the dead’ is that to be taken literally also?

Being born into a Brahmin family means that Kalki will be born into an eminent or prominent family which Baha’u’llah was. His father was a minister in the court of the Shah. It doesn’t mean it had to be a Brahmin family get what I mean? The emphasis being prominent.

There are so, so many meanings in the scriptures hidden from the literally minded and only can be properly understood accepting that these scriptures are spiritual books not history books.or novels and have deep meanings as they come from God.

Christians await Christ to come from the sky with trumpets and angels so with such literal interpretations it’s no wonder that Christians the second coming. The Jews await a literal king and conquered so were blinded to Jesus all because of silly literal interpretations which make no sense.

It baffles me how people interpret their spiritual books so literally that they miss their own Promised One and are just getting left behind because these Holy Books have both literal and spiritual meanings not just literal ones.

Here is a blog which goes into some of the prophecies regarding Kalki and Baha’u’llah.

Once I found Kalki had appeared I believed and loved the Gita a thousand times more even maybe more than those who believe in it because it’s promises have been fulfilled.

Bhartiya Baha'i: HINDUISM AND THE BAHÁ’I FAITH

 

[loverofhumanity]

Yeah, that goes well for interfaith harmony, a something the Baha'i supposedly cherish. Pretty much sums up my feeling about Baha'i, I have nothing against Baha'i beliefs about Baha'i, other than those that involve criticism of other faiths. The Christians are wrong, the Muslims are wrong, the Hindus are wrong. Everyone is wrong except us. How does this build religious harmony?

Too bad it seems that most of Baha'i belief IS entirely about saying the other guys are wrong.

But look out if somebody dare speak ill of some of the Baha'i beliefs. Then it's unfair, unreasonable. And yet, amazingly this obvious double standard remains oblivious. You just can't see it, can you?

Everyone and anyone are most welcome to scrutinise our beliefs all they like. Most welcome.

We believe in all religions so comment on them all as they are all an integral part of our belief system.

In our Houses of Worship all over the world, we read at least weekly in public services from the Bhagavad-Gita, the Holy Quran, the Holy Bible, Buddhist and Zoroastrian texts.

In children’s education classes we teach the children about Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

 

[Vinayaka]

In children’s education classes we teach the children about Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, Moses, Christ, Zoroaster, the Bab and Baha’u’llah.

And you teach your children to believe that all those previous religions got it wrong. How very very sad.

 

[loverofhumanity]

And you teach your children to believe that all those previous religions got it wrong. How very very sad.

We teach them to believe in them as all from the same God and to consider all of them as equal and none as superior including our own and to mix with the followers of all religions as equals.

 

[Marcion]

We believe in all religions so comment on them all as they are all an integral part of our belief system.

That sounds rather hollow if you try to change those religions beyond recognition. You have made your own versions of those religions and put them through the Bahai blender. Of course a similar thing happened in the Abrahamic religions that preceded Bahai, so you started off on the wrong foot and are not to blame. It's an Abrahamic thing this simplistic way of messing around with other ideologies. One day you will outgrow it, I'm sure.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

We believe in all religions so comment on them all as they are all an integral part of our belief system.

No, you don't. You don't believe in Shinto, Korean shamanism, Chinese folk religion, Australian aboriginal religion, Inuit religion, African traditional religion, Hellenism, Religio Romana, Germanic religion, Celtic religion, Slavic religion, Mayan religion, Aztec religion, Inca religion, etc. You ignore the vast majority of the world's religious traditions.