Can Non-Abrahamics and Abrahamics be from same God?

[Vinayaka]

Yes our views are quite revolutionary in many ways so they can feel unsettling to others.

True, not many people like to get insulted. But that's your choice. Generally it leads to disharmony.

 

[Vinayaka]

A lot of Atheists do embrace the core values given by God.

And a lot of religionists embrace the core values of hatred. So?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The religions of the native peoples are basically very much similar so we embrace a lot of what they believe.

No, they aren't and no, you don't.

 

[Vinayaka]

No, they aren't and no, you don't.

Obviously they haven't actually studied it out. Some higher-up says they did, but likely didn't, and the adherents just regurgitate that.

 

[loverofhumanity]

The key difference is I (using first person because I don't presume to speak for @Vinayaka) do not attempt to dismantle core views in another's religion touting them as "man-made creations" or "misinterpretations." If you choose to believe we have one go-around on this planet, so be it. Though I may disagree, I won't call it a man-made creation or a misconception. I have more respect for your right to believe as you will than to do that.

But that is only my view. You are free to believe as you do. When we discuss on forums these topics like reincarnation come up and so we each share our views that’s all. You are just as free to tell me you think I’m wrong or crazy that’s fine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Using the classes analogy, Hinduism is grade 1, Buddhism is Grade 2, Judaism is Grade 3, Christianity is grade 4. but Baha'i is Grade 5, the smartest, most superiour Grade? Do you have any sense at all how insulting this could be seen by other faiths. It's simply another way of saying "I'm smarter than you, and my religion is better than yours." Very few people have enough folly on them to see it that way.

Using the teacher anology, the teacher can teach any grade, but only offers lessons to the capacity the class they were teaching.

Those teachings provide the foundation for higher learning.

Progressive revelation in tune with evolution and our scientific mind.

This makes no sense to me, Tony. Not at all sure what you're trying to say.

That the Teacher is not insulted because they teach different levels of understanding. As a human we know that we need education to progress.

This is reflected in our evolution. You can not teach a Unity of Nations back 2000 plus years ago, but the teacher can give the basic core teachings that give an understanding of the future lessons.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That the Teacher is not insulted because they teach different levels of understanding. As a human we know that we need education to progress.

This is reflected in our evolution. You can not teach a Unity of Nations back 2000 plus years ago, but the teacher can give the basic core teachings that give an understanding of the future lessons.

Still makes no sense Tony, but that's fine. You tried.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, they aren't and no, you don't.

God has always sent His Messengers even before the time of Adam so all these belief systems have been influenced in one way or another by these Manifestations.

 

[Vinayaka]

But that is only my view. You are free to believe as you do. When we discuss on forums these topics like reincarnation come up and so we each share our views that’s all. You are just as free to tell me you think I’m wrong or crazy that’s fine.

I don't think you're wrong or crazy. Everyone has the right to believe or not to believe. I personally believe in reincarnation, but that is my subjective belief, based on personal experiences, several of them. To come on a forum and say flat out that reincarnation has been proven to be false has a tone of objectivity and dismissal to it. It's saying, "That's stupid." and that tone is insulting.

I have no need to prove to anyone my belief in reincarnation, as it's personal. All we're asking here is for some mutual respect for the right to believe what a person believes without undue harsh argument or outright condescending dismissal. If there was someone here attacking your belief, I'd be sticking up for you, as i stick up for the Mormon, or JWs right to believe what they do about the Bible, without chronically telling them they're dead wrong, or attacking their faith. It's really just human decency.

Although some days it may sound like it, I don't believe your beliefs to be wrong, but i do believe your beliefs are different than mine. And, as you have sen, i do take exception for you telling me my beliefs are wrong.

 

[Vinayaka]

God has always sent His Messengers even before the time of Adam so all these belief systems have been influenced in one way or another by these Manifestations.

No they haven't. Many many folks don't believe in manifestations at all. There has been no influence on these folks whatsoever. They think for themselves.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

God has always sent His Messengers even before the time of Adam so all these belief systems have been influenced in one way or another by these Manifestations.

That's faith belief not a factual claim. You can't prove any such thing. Adam is mythological.

 

[sayak83]

The Bahai Writings say that God created and designed man but that we existed from eternity to eternity. If we did not exist on this earth then we existed somewhere else. We view the Biblical story of creation as symbolical of the 7 Days of God or 7 religions created by God in the Adamic Cycle. But Manifestations of God have always existed before then only we don’t have records of them.

Krishna says He is born from age to age to renew the principles of religion and destroy wickedness which is why we believe Baha’u’llah to be Kalki, the Tenth Avatar. (Kalki Purana)

As to His rebirth. We are told the Manifestations of God are pre existent, that is Their Souls are not conceived in this world but They pre existed in a different world whilst our souls are conceived at birth in the human womb in this world.

Krishna is explaining to Arjuna His pre existent states and that He can recall ALL His births while Aerjuna cannot becsuse Arjuna is not pre existent although humanity has always existed through countless generations or births.

He then goes on to describe the importance of spiritual knowledge to Arjuna and says that transcendental knowledge can enable one to be detached from desire, passion, self and ego and cause one to attain Supreme spiritual peace.

In 4:32 Lord Krishna states that ‘the truth shall set us free’, liberate us (from our attachments to desire) if we come to know Him we shall be liberated from bondage to our desires and passions and earthly possessions and attachments and be at one with the Lord and experience the bliss of nearness to Him.

In the Gita Lord Krishna says that with spiritual knowledge we can overcome all sin even if we be the worst sinner in the world.

The Next World

As Baha’u’llah explained so too does Lord Krishna refer in this chapter to only the next world in this striking passage clearly supporting the argument that we pass onto another world not return to this one thus debunking once and for all in His Own Words the concept of reincarnation.

Gita 4:40

But ignorant and faithless persons who doubt the revealed scriptures do not attain God consciousness. For the doubting soul there is happiness neither in this world nor in the next.

You ignored the explicit statement of multiple births for virtuous people so that they can continue their practice.
Krishna categorically says that Arjuna was born many many times before just like him, but he has forgotten them. Your explanation has no connection with what the sentence actually means.

Further, as Gita clearly says in the quoted statements that all human souls are pre-existent and beginningless, then we diverge from Baha'i beliefs on this matter. Again your attempt to interpret statements about individuated souls/selves as generic humanity has no bearing with the meaning of the statements.


Further rebirth statements:- Chapter 7 verse 19.

At the end of many births, (bahunam janmanam ante )
The man of wisdom resorts to Me,
Thinking "Vasudeva (Krishna) is all."
Such a great soul is rare in this world.

Chapter 9 verse 3

Men who have no faith in this knowledge, Arjuna,
Not attaining to Me, are born again
In the path of death and transmigration.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And a lot of religionists embrace the core values of hatred. So?

It shows to me we all have a choice to implement what is of God, the virtues, or not.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It shows to me we all have a choice to implement what is of God, the virtues, or not.

Perhaps you've never met an ethical atheist? He has virtues, but they are not of God. I think the supposed link between ethics and belief in God is fallacy. But you're free to believe that only religious people can be ethical.

I do think being ethical is a choice to some degree, but belief isn't, just as homosexuality of gender isn't.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't think you're wrong or crazy. Everyone has the right to believe or not to believe. I personally believe in reincarnation, but that is my subjective belief, based on personal experiences, several of them. To come on a forum and say flat out that reincarnation has been proven to be false has a tone of objectivity and dismissal to it. It's saying, "That's stupid." and that tone is insulting.

I have no need to prove to anyone my belief in reincarnation, as it's personal. All we're asking here is for some mutual respect for the right to believe what a person believes without undue harsh argument or outright condescending dismissal. If there was someone here attacking your belief, I'd be sticking up for you, as i stick up for the Mormon, or JWs right to believe what they do about the Bible, without chronically telling them they're dead wrong, or attacking their faith. It's really just human decency.

Although some days it may sound like it, I don't believe your beliefs to be wrong, but i do believe your beliefs are different than mine. And, as you have sen, i do take exception for you telling me my beliefs are wrong.

Ok.

Just one point. You said if my beliefs were attacked you’d stick up for us? The other day when I posted a link to someone to the official Baha’i website you intervened quickly and posted links to enemy Baha’i websites which attack our Faith. They say terrible things about us more horrible than anything said on RF. You know this. If you respect us as you say then why the eagerness to make sure people are linked to those websites which defame and slander us?

So on the one hand you’re complaining about religions not being respected yet you are posting links on this forum to websites slandering and defaming the Bahai Faith. Lol

You’ve sure got a funny way of sticking up for us but feel free to continue as it seems to make you happy to criticise us and I want you to be happy.

 

[Vinayaka]

Ok.

Just one point. You said if my beliefs were attacked you’d stick up for us? The other day when I posted a link to someone to the official Baha’i website you intervened quickly and posted links to enemy Baha’i websites which attack our Faith. They say terrible things about us more horrible than anything said on RF. You know this. If you respect us as you say then why the eagerness to make sure people are linked to those websites which defame and slander us?

That's because I just see them as giving an alternative POV. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with them. You may see them as anti-Baha'i and slander, but I don't. I see much logic and truth in them, as well as some overeacting. So you're saying even just expressing an alternative view is slander?

Is it now slander if someone says they don't believe in progressive manifestation?

But in reality, if you're investigating any group at all you just have to google ______+ controversy. A common site I link to is the wiki article entitled 'Criticism of the Baha'i Faith'. Are you saying wiki should take that down because it's slander?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Perhaps you've never met an ethical atheist? He has virtues, but they are not of God. I think the supposed link between ethics and belief in God is fallacy. But you're free to believe that only religious people can be ethical.

I am not saying an Athiest has to attribute the source of their good qualities to God, or even beleive in God to have good qualities.

I am saying the source of all good is God, even if that is acknowledged or not acknowledged.

An Athiest is free to choose how and why they think these qualities exist.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

.

I am saying the source of all good is God, even if that is acknowledged or not acknowledged.

Yes that is your belief. It isn't fact, as you suggest.. Maybe some ethical atheists can chime in. I believe ethical nature is mostly common sense, although as we all know, ethics vary by religion.

 

[loverofhumanity]

You ignored the explicit statement of multiple births for virtuous people so that they can continue their practice.
Krishna categorically says that Arjuna was born many many times before just like him, but he has forgotten them. Your explanation has no connection with what the sentence actually means.

Further, as Gita clearly says in the quoted statements that all human souls are pre-existent and beginningless, then we diverge from Baha'i beliefs on this matter. Again your attempt to interpret statements about individuated souls/selves as generic humanity has no bearing with the meaning of the statements.


Further rebirth statements:- Chapter 7 verse 19.

At the end of many births, (bahunam janmanam ante )
The man of wisdom resorts to Me,
Thinking "Vasudeva (Krishna) is all."
Such a great soul is rare in this world.

Chapter 9 verse 3

Men who have no faith in this knowledge, Arjuna,
Not attaining to Me, are born again
In the path of death and transmigration.

The reason Arjuna couldn’t re,ember thrm is becsuse they never happened. Arjuna, his qualities reappeared from time to time but not the self same person.

Let’s look at Jesus saying that John the Baptist was Elijah yet John denied it breaches he was thinking that he was not the person Elijah but Christ was referring to the same spirit and qualities not the same actual Elijah so he said Elijah had returned and John the Baptist fulfilled the same role as forerunner.

At the end of many births or generations man turns to God. True. That’s how I understand it.

Men who have no faith in spiritual knowledge are born into spiritual death and materialism. I may not see it the way you do but that’s just me.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's because I just see them as giving an alternative POV. I don't necessarily agree or disagree with them. You may see them as anti-Baha'i and slander, but I don't. I see much logic and truth in them, as well as some overeacting. So you're saying even just expressing an alternative view is slander?

Is it now slander if someone says they don't believe in progressive manifestation?

But in reality, if you're investigating any group at all you just have to google ______+ controversy. A common site I link to is the wiki article entitled 'Criticism of the Baha'i Faith'. Are you saying wiki should take that down because it's slander?

I have no objection at all to people going anywhere for information it’s just you said you would stick up for us and I found that odd that’s all.