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Can secularism be oppressive to any religious believer?

I agree that, for most of human history, people organized their lives around myths and folklore. It reïnforced social values and gave people the purpose and significance they crave.
But with the advent of the 'secular' scientific method we had a new investigative modality, that dismissed unevidenced mythology. This has been extraordinarily fruitful, however, many feel the stark reality revealed renders them insignificant and without purpose.

Not sure why the scientific method is 'secular' unless in the sense that chimneys are secular or cornflakes are.

The 'scientific method' also didn't 'dismiss unevidenced mythology'. One of the primary reasons experimental methods became popular was due to a link to theology.h ey were widely mocked as useless at first, even the novel Gulliver's Travels contains a world that is mocking people who are caught up in useless scientific speculation.

Lining the fruits of the industrial and scientific revolutions to 'secularism' is very dubious as they very much emerged in a Christian context.


Again, good points, but knowledge and technology are utilitarian, they don't claim to give you meaning and purpose, nor is a divine necessary for eusocial values.

These don't give you meaning and purpose, which is why we have to invent meaning and purpose. A godless mythos is still a mythos.

Secular Humanists basically just adopted a godless form of cultural liberal Protestantism. Just keeping the values while rejecting the supernatural bits hardly makes 'true' rather than being just another myth. Liberal Protestantism turned into the Providential Deism of peole like Jefferson then people just replaced the Providential Deist god with a secular Idea of Progress (that basically casts Science and Reason as Divine Providence via meliorism).

"Science and reason" lead to as many illiberal ideologies as they have liberal ones which is not surprising as where they take you depends on your values.

The key Enlightenment value was Progress, and simply since The Enlightenment 'Progress' has probably been responsible for more deaths that all religions combined in human history: from The French Revolution to Peter the Great to Communism to the Iraq War and Afghanistan (although it is fair to note that the Enlightenment idea of progress was not exclusive to secular thinkers).
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Its implied. Here is a critique of textbooks in general. The money quote "Despite the abundant use of leading questions and tentative terminology in their origins of life discussions, the majority of textbooks exude confidence that confirmation of a naturalistic model of life's origins is inevitable."

Origin of Life & Evolution in Biology Textbooks: A Critique on JSTOR
So if I told you a naturalistic model of a puddle's origin is inevitable would you take it to mean puddles invented themselves?
Or if I told you a naturalistic model of the sun's origin is inevitable would you take it to mean the sun invented itself?

If no then why would you take, "a naturalistic model of life's origins is inevitable" to mean life invented itself?

In my opinion.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Yes and no. The modern secular state came out of "The Enlightenment", but was the end of a much longer process. Basically nothing that happened during "The Enlightenment" was particularly new, just a further evolution of trends that had started in the Medieval period. The separation of church and state was a process that began nearly a millennium earlier.
No, it was pretty new. Philosophers started thinking outside the "divine box" and seeing human being as autonomous and with certain freedoms from religion and its authority. Human rights came out of this.

Where were the 'theocracies' though? Who were the 'theocrats'? If you mean Divine Right, that is not theocracy, almost the opposite as it related to the King's 'Divine Right' to rule over the secular sphere in contrast to the Church's mandate to rule over the spiritual. It was a direct opposition to theocracy.
I do consider divine right as a form of theocracy because it assumes its authority from a God. Let's note that many people did not fair well under these leaderships.

And while religion has been used to justify violence, in other situations, it also acted to limit it. The defining "Enlightenment" value was not humanism but "Progress" and this often took very violent and illiberal forms.
Right, religion offers no advantage as a basis for governing.

It's also not like the powerful needed an 'authority from god' to exploit the weak, they did that the world over no matter their belief system. Divine Right or Might Makes Right make little difference.
Yet they used it nonetheless. Perhaps it was a way for the cruel to dupe themselves so they felt less guilt about killing a bunch of villagers. When God is on your side you have less reason to rethink your acts.


No I mean that secular humanist types create their own mythos. They don't 'see the world as it is'.

One obvious example would be the stock myth of the "sceptical rationalist" idea that the Greeks were good secular rationalists but then came the "Christian Dark Ages" where the evil Church sought to keep people in darkness and destroyed classical scholarship as they hated knowledge and learning then there was a Renaissance where people rediscovered the forbidden Greek knowledge which paved the way for The Enlightenment which was the source of all good and freed science from the oppressive clutches of Religion and created modernity and as prosperity and education grows all the world will reject superstition and become secular rationalists and everything will be wonderful.

It doesn't have to be such an obviously false myth as that though. The philosopher John Gray:

Humanists today, who claim to take a wholly secular view of things, scoff at mysticism and religion. But the unique status of humans is hard to defend, and even to understand, when it is cut off from any idea of transcendence. In a strictly naturalistic view – one in which the world is taken on its own terms, without reference to a creator or any spiritual realm – there is no hierarchy of value with humans at the top. There are simply multifarious animals, each with their own needs. Human uniqueness is a myth inherited from religion, which humanists have recycled into science...

When contemporary humanists invoke the idea of progress they are mixing together two different myths: a Socratic myth of reason and a Christian myth of salvation. If the resulting body of ideas is incoherent, that is the source of its appeal. Humanists believe that humanity improves along with the growth of knowledge, but the belief that the increase of knowledge goes with advances in civilization is an act of faith. They see the realization of human potential as the goal of history, when rational inquiry shows history to have no goal. They exalt nature, while insisting that humankind – an accident of nature – can overcome the natural limits that shape the lives of other animals. Plainly absurd, this nonsense gives meaning to the lives of people who believe they have left all myths behind. To expect humanists to give up their myths would be unreasonable. Like cheap music, the myth of progress lifts the spirits as it numbs the brain. The fact that rational humanity shows no sign of ever arriving only makes humanists cling more fervently to the conviction that humankind will someday be redeemed from unreason. Like believers in flying saucers, they interpret the non-event as confirming their faith...

Science is a solvent of illusion, and among the illusions it dissolves are those of humanism. Human knowledge increases, while human irrationality stays the same. Scientific inquiry may be an embodiment of reason, but what such inquiry demonstrates is that humans are not rational animals...

Modern myths are myths of salvation stated in secular terms. What both kinds of myths have in common is that they answer to a need for meaning that cannot be denied. In order to survive, humans have invented science. Pursued consistently, scientific inquiry acts to undermine myth. But life without myth is impossible, so science has become a channel for myths – chief among them, a myth of salvation through science. When truth is at odds with meaning, it is meaning that wins. Why this should be so is a delicate question. Why is meaning so important? Why do humans need a reason to live? Is it because they could not endure life if they did not believe it contained hidden significance?
The silence of animals: On progress and other modern myths



There is nothing wrong with this, we all need a guiding mythos to give purpose to the world and the need for narrative is one of the defining human conditions.
However humanism evolved to be a basis for human rights and dignity what better alternative is there?

There might be a decent dictator out there.

Humans have a need to feel part of something larger than the self. Community meaning is essential.
Humans evolved this way because those who formed groups/tribes and cooperated with each member survived over those who tried to do their own thing. The human brain evolved to conform for the group norms for the sake of survival and for belonging, and even meaning eventually. So this is biological, and the person has little choice in how these impulses project onto consciousness.
 
No, it was pretty new. Philosophers started thinking outside the "divine box" and seeing human being as autonomous and with certain freedoms from religion and its authority. Human rights came out of this.

Human rights evolved over centuries, specifically via Medieval Canon .

Freedoms from religion were also not some magical new creation, but have long roots in Christian thought. See for example: Defensor pacis - Wikipedia


The tract Defensor pacis (The Defender of Peace) laid the foundations of modern doctrines of popular sovereignty. It was written by Marsilius of Padua (Italian: Marsilio da Padova), an Italian medieval scholar. It appeared in 1324 and provoked a storm of controversy that lasted through the century. The context of the work lies in the political struggle between Louis IV, Holy Roman Emperor and Pope John XXII. The treatise is vehemently anticlerical. Marsilius' work was censured by Pope Benedict XII and Pope Clement VI.

Defensor pacis extends the tradition of Dante's De Monarchia separating the secular State from religious authority. It affirmed the sovereignty of the people and civil law and sought to greatly limit the power of the Papacy, which he viewed as the "cause of the trouble which prevails among men" and which he characterized as a "fictitious" power. He proposed the seizure of church property by civil authority and the elimination of tithes. In his view, the Papacy would retain only an honorary pre-eminence without any authority to interpret the scriptures or define dogma.

As its name implies, it describes the State as the defender of the public peace, which is the most indispensable benefit of human society. The author of the law expresses will of the people, not of the whole populace, but of the most important part (valentior) of the citizens; these people should themselves elect, or at least appoint, the head of the government, who, lest he should be tempted to put himself above the scope of the laws, should have at his disposal only a limited armed force. This chief is responsible to the people for his breaches of the law, and in serious cases they can sentence him to death. The real cause of the trouble which prevails among men is the Papacy, the development of which is the result of a series of usurpations.[1]

Marsilius of Padua - Wikipedia

In Defensor pacis, Marsilius sought to demonstrate, by arguments from reason (in Dictio I of the text) and by argument from authority (in Dictio II) the independence of the Holy Roman Empire from the Papacy and the emptiness of the prerogatives alleged to have been usurped by the Roman pontiffs. A number of Marsilius's views were declared to be heretical by Pope John XXII in 1327.[4]

Most of Defensor pacis is devoted to theology. Relying heavily on Scripture, Marsilius seeks to show that Jesus did not claim to possess any temporal power and that he did not intend his church to exercise any.[5] On the contrary, Scripture teaches that the church should be thoroughly subordinate to the state in both secular and spiritual matters. All authority in the church lies with the whole body of the faithful, the secular ruler who acts as the people's representative, and general councils called by the secular ruler.[6] Some of Marsilius's arguments on these themes had a marked influence during the Reformation.[7]

I do consider divine right as a form of theocracy because it assumes its authority from a God. Let's note that many people did not fair well under these leaderships.

A justification of authority that specifically splits church and state power is 'theocracy'?

Let's note many people didn't fare well under secular regimes either.

Right, religion offers no advantage as a basis for governing.

Most of the values you hold dear developed in a religious context, so to say it offers 'no advantages' seems a bit myopic.

Any basis for power has advantages and disadvantages.

Yet they used it nonetheless. Perhaps it was a way for the cruel to dupe themselves so they felt less guilt about killing a bunch of villagers. When God is on your side you have less reason to rethink your acts.

And Marxists used their materialistic worldview to justify mass murder as the sanctity of human life was a religious myth.

'Human rights' were one justification for wars in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan too. Just about any ideology can be used to justify whatever you want.

Religion is no better or worse in this regard. The problem is humans.

However humanism evolved to be a basis for human rights and dignity what better alternative is there?

There might be a decent dictator out there.

See, ideologies grounded in silly myths can be good after all ;)

Humans evolved this way because those who formed groups/tribes and cooperated with each member survived over those who tried to do their own thing. The human brain evolved to conform for the group norms for the sake of survival and for belonging, and even meaning eventually. So this is biological, and the person has little choice in how these impulses project onto consciousness.

Yes, and humans evolved to understand the world via subjective narratives/ideologies/myths/fictions. We should embrace this rather than pretending 'our group' sees the world as it is and everyone else believes in childish nonsense.
 

ecco

Veteran Member
No, not at all silly. Life invented itself under suitable circumstances. and later, intelligence. No magic required. From Molecules to RNA, and from RNA to DNA.
Life did not invent itself.

Life occurred - no inventing, no inventor.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The precursors of life, physical energy and atoms, existed before life was able to invent itself. Now, why time, space and energy exist, is a question for future.

"1 THEN was not non-existent nor existent: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it.
What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water?
2 Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider.
That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever.
3 Darkness there was: at first concealed in darkness this All was indiscriminated chaos.
All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit.
4 Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit.
Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent.
5 Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it?
There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder
6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not."
Rig Veda: Rig-Veda, Book 10: HYMN CXXIX. Creation.
 
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