Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Youtellme]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

 

[Shermana]

The Trinity is a half baked theological corruption of the original idea of the Jewish concept of the Logos (how it is defined according to Philo at least) that is filled with all kinds of ill-defined word games, illogical contradictions of both concept and what the text says, and distortions of grammar of the text, with a few doses of textual interpolation in both scripture and church father writings, all blended into one incoherent doctrine in which the official position is that it's "Too complicated for the human mind to understand".

Christology becomes much easier to unravel in its Arian form, which has no contradictions or fuzzy wordplay and is the closest to what the original probably was.

Many will say that the Trinity was always a part of Christianity and the JWs came along to deny this, but this is far from the truth.

I'd be happy to answer any specific question you may have on it.

 

[Sunstone]

The logos is a Jewish concept? Could you elaborate on that one?

 

[Youtellme]

...Many will say that the Trinity was always a part of Christianity and the JWs came along to deny this, but this is far from the truth.

Sorry, can you explain this line a bit, I'm being a bit thick, thanks.

 

[Shermana]

Sorry, can you explain this line a bit, I'm being a bit thick, thanks.

No problem.

A general assumption by Traditional Christians is that the idea of Jesus being God incarnate was always a part of the Christian tradition from the days of the apostles, judging by their interpretation of verses like John 8:58, 20:28, Matthew 28:19, and a host of others which I can explain in detail if you'd like, but this is simply not the case, and their interpretation of these verses is and has been disputed...even by trinitarian scholars themselves! Many will use some of the things Paul said, like in Philemon 2:5-8, of "being in the form of God", when it should read as "form of a god", just like how it says "Form of a slave", in the anarthrous indefinite case, but this is a matter of more detailed discussion, so I'll keep it general. The fact is, and I'll be happy to defend this fact, these interpretations are not as set in stone as they'd like, and there's plenty of evidence that they're downright wrong and distorted. The intended idea was most likely completely in line with the Jewish Logos Theology, of which the "Word" was "a god", as in the incarnation of An Angelic/Divine/Heavenly being, as Angels were in fact called "gods".

The reality is that the Trinity was a 2nd century development around Tertullian's time and most likely does not at all reflect what the original Jewish Christians regarded Jesus as.

 

[Youtellme]

No problem.

A general assumption by Traditional Christians is that the idea of Jesus being God incarnate was always a part of the Christian tradition from the days of the apostles, judging by their interpretation of verses like John 8:58, 20:28, Matthew 28:19, and a host of others which I can explain in detail if you'd like, but this is simply not the case, and their interpretation of these verses is and has been disputed...even by trinitarian scholars themselves! Many will use some of the things Paul said, like in Philemon 2:5-8, of "being in the form of God", when it should read as "form of a god", just like how it says "Form of a slave", in the anarthrous indefinite case, but this is a matter of more detailed discussion, so I'll keep it general. The fact is, and I'll be happy to defend this fact, these interpretations are not as set in stone as they'd like, and there's plenty of evidence that they're downright wrong and distorted. The intended idea was most likely completely in line with the Jewish Logos Theology, of which the "Word" was "a god", as in the incarnation of An Angelic/Divine/Heavenly being, as Angels were in fact called "gods".

The reality is that the Trinity was a 2nd century development around Tertullian's time and most likely does not at all reflect what the original Jewish Christians regarded Jesus as.

Thanks for that. That's how I see it too. Being in the form of God does not make you God.

 

[Pegg]

Thanks for that. That's how I see it too. Being in the form of God does not make you God.

thats right... another way to understand it is that there exists in heaven myriads of holy angels who are like God in form... they are spirits just as God is a spirit....and spirits are gods.

This is how its possible that Jesus can also be a god himself. He is not the Creator, the Almighty Supreme God of heaven....but he is certainly a godlike spirit.

 

[Pastek]

thats right... another way to understand it is that there exists in heaven myriads of holy angels who are like God in form... they are spirits just as God is a spirit....and spirits are gods.

Spirits are gods ?
From which verse is that ?

This is how its possible that Jesus can also be a god himself. He is not the Creator, the Almighty Supreme God of heaven....but he is certainly a godlike spirit.

I really don't understand what that means.

You think that angels are kind of god spirit, and that Jesus in an angel ?
So if Jesus is "a god himself", then the other angels are also "gods" ?

 

[Shermana]

Angels are in fact called "Elohim", Pastek. See Psalm 8:5 which is translated in the Septuagint and Hebrews as "lower than the Angels" for "Elohim".

The word "god" is heavily misunderstood. THE god, the "god of the gods" (Psalm 136:2) is not the only "god", he is the only KING of the "gods". There's a reason his name is articulated with a "The", to separate himself from the lower "gods". The word "god" in the Hebrew sense simply means "power". There is only one KING god. But even human spirits like Samuel's soul is called an "Elohim". Even the Arabic name for THE God, "Allah", likely comes from "Al-Elah" which would mean "The god".

 

[Shermana]

The logos is a Jewish concept? Could you elaborate on that one?

Philo's view of God - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The concept deserves its own thread.

The Logos

Philo considers these divine powers in their totality also, treating them as a single independent being, which he designates "Logos". This name, which he borrowed from Greek philosophy, was first used by Heraclitus and then adopted by the Stoics. Philo's conception of the Logos is influenced by both of these schools. From Heraclitus he borrowed the conception of the "dividing Logos" (λόγος τομεύ&#962, which calls the various objects into existence by the combination of contrasts ("Quis Rerum Divinarum Heres Sit," § 43 [i. 503]), and from Stoicism, the characterization of the Logos as the active and vivifying power. But Philo borrowed also Platonic elements in designating the Logos as the "idea of ideas" and the "archetypal idea".[13]
There are, in addition, Biblical elements: there are Biblical passages in which the word of Yhwh is regarded as a power acting independently and existing by itself, as Isaiah 55:11;[14] these ideas were further developed by later Judaism in the doctrines of the Divine Word creating the world, the divine throne-chariot and its cherub, the divine splendor and its shekinah, and the name of God as well as the names of the angels; and Philo borrowed from all these in elaborating his doctrine of the Logos. He calls the Logos "second god [deuteros theos]" (Questions and Answers on Genesis 2:62), the "archangel of many names," "taxiarch" (corps-commander), the "name of God," also the "heavenly Adam",[15] the "man, the word of the eternal God."
The Logos is also designated as "high priest", in reference to the exalted position which the high priest occupied after the Exile as the real center of the Jewish state. The Logos, like the high priest, is the expiator of sins, and the mediator and advocate for men: ἱκέτης,[16] and παράκλητος.[17]
From Alexandrian theology Philo borrowed the idea of wisdom as the mediator; he thereby somewhat confused his doctrine of the Logos, regarding wisdom as the higher principle from which the Logos proceeds, and again coordinating it with the latter.
[edit]Relation of the Logos to God
Philo's conception of the Logos is directly related to the Middle Platonic view of God as unmoved and utterly transcendent. As such, the Logos becomes the aspect of the divine that operates in the world—through whom the world is created and sustained.[18] Philo, in connecting his doctrine of the Logos with Scripture, first of all bases on Gen. i. 27 the relation of the Logos to God. He translates this passage as follows: "He made man after the image of God," concluding therefrom that an image of God existed. This image of God is the type for all other things (the "Archetypal Idea" of Plato), a seal impressed upon things. The Logos is a kind of shadow cast by God, having the outlines but not the blinding light of the Divine Being.

Various cultures like the Greeks have had an idea of the "Logos" as an intelligent principle, if not being, but in different terms than the Jews.

The traditional idea of "Wisdom" such as in Proverbs 8:22 is actually not metaphorical at all but taken to mean an actual incarnation of God's wisdom, personified, who serves as the Prime Creative and Constructive force, the tool of God, the firstborn Created being, who is independent from the Creator, yet filled with such Holiness and Power that it is the Second in command of Heaven, superior to all the angels and other spirits, inferior only to the Initial Creator.

 

[Youtellme]

Spirits are gods ?
From which verse is that ?



I really don't understand what that means.

You think that angels are kind of god spirit, and that Jesus in an angel ?
So if Jesus is "a god himself", then the other angels are also "gods" ?

The very term "Almighty" implies that there are lower, less mighty gods. Even humans can be gods. Your job can be your god too. It's anything you put first in life you could say.

 

[Pastek]

Angels are in fact called "Elohim", Pastek. See Psalm 8:5 which is translated in the Septuagint and Hebrews as "lower than the Angels" for "Elohim".

I've read it, but i don't get what you meant. Are you sure it was this verse ?

The word "god" is heavily misunderstood. THE god, the "god of the gods" (Psalm 136:2) is not the only "god", he is the only KING of the "gods".

Excuse-me, but it doesn't imply here that it's the angels.
It can means that the "gods" of people, are in fact below Him. But for me He's talking about false gods.

Do you have a verse which clearly says the angels are called "god" ?
That's the first time i hear that

 

[Muffled]

I was talking to a Lutheran Pastor the other day and he said God provided the greatest gift when he offered himself up as Jesus on the cross. But from what I read in the Bible, when Jesus was on the cross, he spoke to God in heaven. How then can he be God at the same time? Please explain. Thanks

God is omnipresent. He can speak in more than one place at the same time. This concept of God being able to respond was graphically portrayed in the movie Bruce Almighty when Bruce found even a computer couldn't keep up with what God does.

Now fast forward to the Paraclete, the third member of the Trinity, where God is able to speak to and through his children.

 

[Youtellme]

God is omnipresent. He can speak in more than one place at the same time.

What's the point of Jesus asking his Father to forgive for they know not what they do, if he's the father. Also, read all of John 17 and see how that makes sense in your context.

 

[The Real Milk Man]

I've read it, but i don't get what you meant. Are you sure it was this verse ?



Excuse-me, but it doesn't imply here that it's the angels.
It can means that the "gods" of people, are in fact below Him. But for me He's talking about false gods.

Do you have a verse which clearly says the angels are called "god" ?
That's the first time i hear that

Dear Pastek, peace be with you;

This is from the EXB translation, of Psalm 82:1; God ·is in charge of the great meeting [L takes his place/presides in the great assembly/or the assembly of the gods/divine council; C the angels (powers and authorities; Eph. 6:12) are here called “gods”];
he judges among the “gods”


--John 14:1, Jesus said, "Let not your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe 'Also' in Me."

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.
God and His Son loves you, and I do too!
Whatever is the overflow of the heart, is what comes out of the mouth.

 

[billthecat]

This site really isn't about discussion or a place to actually get answers. This thread started with a request for an explanation - "Can someone explain...." And the very first response is from someone who feels the need to express their personal opinions that have NOTHING to do with the question. And in fact, to slam the concept the question is about. Why is that? That smacks of .... arrogance for sure. And no, this response in this thread is in no way... no way by far... rare. It is the norm here. That sort of response smacks of .... what... narcissistic fear? Are you honestly not able to sit back and let other people discuss something without having to throw in your contrary two cents??

ETA: no, that sort of post is NOT debate.

 

[Pastek]

Dear Pastek, peace be with you;

This is from the EXB translation, of Psalm 82:1; God ·is in charge of the great meeting [L takes his place/presides in the great assembly/or the assembly of the gods/divine council; C the angels (powers and authorities; Eph. 6:12) are here called “gods”];
he judges among the “gods”


--John 14:1, Jesus said, "Let not your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe 'Also' in Me."

In the love of Christ, sincerely, The Real Milk Man.
God and His Son loves you, and I do too!
Whatever is the overflow of the heart, is what comes out of the mouth.

Peace be upon you,

Thanks for the clarification

 

[Pegg]

Spirits are gods ?
From which verse is that ?



I really don't understand what that means.

You think that angels are kind of god spirit, and that Jesus in an angel ?
So if Jesus is "a god himself", then the other angels are also "gods" ?

The hebrew word for god is Elohim. That word is not only used in reference to the Creator, The One True God, the Almighty God.

it is also used in reference to false gods. The reason is because the word is not a personal name....it is merely a title. elohim is also applied to Satan the devil in the scriptures. He is called the Elohim of this world.

So what exactly is an Elohim? It is a spirit or one with great power. A mighty strong one.

Angels are spirits. Therefore angels are also elohims. Some of the angels rebelled and became the gods of this world.

Exodus 18:11 Now I do know that Jehovah is greater than all the [other] gods
(Heb., ha·ʼelo·him′; Gr., tous the·ous′, pl)by reason of this affair in which they acted presumptuously against them.” 12 Then Jeth′ro, Moses’ father-in-law, took a burnt offering and sacrifices for God (ha·ʼelo·him′ and Aaron and all the older men of Israel came to eat bread with Moses’ father-in-law, before the [true] God (ha·ʼelo·him&#8242

The scritpures need to make a distinction between the Creator Almighty God and the other gods who exist because some of those gods/spirits, have set themselves up as gods to be worshipped and people do worship them. The bible calls them 'false gods'.

 

[Shermana]

I've read it, but i don't get what you meant. Are you sure it was this verse ?

What don't you get?

It either says:

"A little lower than God" (As if man is just slightly lower than God himself)

or

"A little lower than the gods".

If you take option 1, you are saying Humanity is only slightly lower than God.

Now with that said, one must understand what the word "god" actually means, and why THE god is articulated with a "The". The very concept of "Most high god/ascending god" means there are gods less than him which is he 'Ascends" against to be "most high".

It's not "Polytheistic" in the sense of equating THE God with other gods, its about simply using the title of "powers" for the "Divine beings", of whom THE God is the highest of these "powers". Again, the word "Allah" is likely from "Al-Elah" which also means THE god.

Excuse-me, but it doesn't imply here that it's the angels.
It can means that the "gods" of people, are in fact below Him. But for me He's talking about false gods.

It could but the context would thus mean that he's talking about being king of Non-existent beings.When he says "Thou shalt have no gods before me", it implies there are actual gods that one COULD have before him. The notion that all mention of "gods" is referring to non-existent beings seems to defy the text in saying that Angels are in fact called gods. Do you think Jacob really wrestled with God and won?

What constitutes a "false god"? What constitutes a "god"? Is only THE god a true god? What is a "True god"? One could say that one is a "False god" even if they are a "god" in comparison to THE god nonetheless, but they are still called "gods".

Do you have a verse which clearly says the angels are called "god" ?
That's the first time i hear that[/quote]Psalm 97:7

(Psalm 97:7) . . .Bow down to him, all YOU gods. . .

Bow down to him all you statues? I don't think so.

 

[Pastek]

Thank you all.
But it's difficult to understand that.