katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
This verse sure does show the triune God.
Spirit of God = Spirit of Christ
Good one JMC2!
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Can someone explain the Trinity please...
- Thread starter Youtellme
- Start date
Spirit of God = Spirit of Christ
Good one JMC2!
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Well, I question how people figure that Jesus had to be God to pay the ransom? It doesn't add up.
If you were Jewish in the first century, and someone came along and told you that Almighty God was born as a human and was teaching people that their religious leaders were nothing but hypocrites, how do you think you would have responded?
All Jesus ever claimed to be was "the son of God" and they accused him of blasphemy....imagine what they would have said if he'd claimed to BE God?! (Which he never did...not once)
Nowhere in any OT scripture was there even a hint that Messiah would be God incarnate. The notion is ridiculous. Why would the Almighty Creator need to do such a thing? He has servants who carry out his instructions and his holy spirit to accomplish any task that he wills. To suggest that the incomparable Creator needed to come to earth in person is to completely ignore the whole of scripture.
If you understand the mechanics of the ransom, then you will understand that offering the life of "God" is an incredible amount of "overkill" to atone for the mortal life that Adam forfeited.
To balance the scales of Jehovah's perfect justice, a life had to be offered for a life. Equivalency was what the law demanded. (Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life) An equivalent life could not be found on earth because all of Adam's children now carried the defect of sin. A sinless life from outside the now imperfect human race had to be offered in exchange. The created son of God willingly offered to come to earth to offer his life in exchange for Adam's. It isn't rocket science and it doesn't take a genius to figure out that an immortal God cannot die, but a mortal being was needed to offer the ransom price for the redemption of Adam's children born in sin through no fault on their part.
No one apart from God himself was immortal, originally. Do you understand what "immortal" means?
Angelic creatures are not "mortal" in the same sense that humans are, but they can still be put to death by God. Pertaining to God's spirit sons, it means that their continued existence depends on obedience to their Creator. Adam's continued existence was dependent on his obedience too.
Immortality literally means "the power of an indestructible life". An immortal being cannot be put out of existence.
If Jesus was God Almighty, then he could not die. How can mere humans kill God?
If Jesus didn't really die, then the ransom was not paid and we are all still condemned. Angelic messengers often spoke in the first person when delivering God's communications to his earthly servants.
There were three angels who visited Abraham. One of them was a spokesman for Jehovah and spoke for him as his representative. It may well have been the pre-human Jesus. (The account does not say)
The other two went on the destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.
There are several occasions when God sent his angels to earth to interact with his servants on earth but he was never there in person.
John 1:18 clearly states that "no man has ever seen God" so how is that you say men have? How many people saw Jesus?
In the account of Abraham being asked to offer his son, it was pictorial of God offering his only begotten son, but nowhere is it suggested that Abraham and Isaac were the same person. They were clearly father and son as we humans understand the terms.
Your desire to promote your trinity has you ignoring so many things that the whole Bible teaches.
To put any other god in equal status with "the only true God" is breaking the first commandment. (Ex 20:3; John 17:3) It is blasphemous. Why would you doubt that the devil could promote this idea when Jesus himself said that "weeds" would be planted in Christian teaching ? This is the most serious doctrine of the weeds of false Christianity.
If Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life (Matt 7:13, 14) then it isn't what the majority teach that will be truth.....we need to understand what the devil is up to, and simply do the math.
cataway
Well-Known Member
maybe you could comment on the question I asked
cataway
Well-Known Member
if they are equal perhaps you could comment on how the one is greater
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Hopefully, the same way His followers did.
Wrong! He said I and the Father are one. They knew He was claiming to be God. That's why accused Him of blasphemy.
People on this forum have given you plenty of evidence from the OT. You ignore and deny it.
You underestimate sin, the volume of evil in the world since Adam. I understand that Jesus gave His life, in the most cruel way possible, for the likes of you an me. It would take God to accomplish such a sacrifice for all men since Adam and until the end of time. No human or angel ever had such power to forgive so much evil.
Jesus, the mortal, died physically. He never died spiritually. While His body lay in the tomb, He preached to the spirits in prison. No human or angel could have accomplished such a feat. Jesus was fully God and fully human.If Jesus was God Almighty, then he could not die. How can mere humans kill God?
I can tell you didn't look at an interlinear. If you had, you would know that verses 1, 13, 14, 17, 19, 20, 22, 26, and 33 of Genesis say YHWH. God, Himself appeared to Abraham in the form of a man and spoke with him. I double dog dare you to look the chapter up in the original language.
Agree. God has used angels to deliver His message, but He, Himself came to earth in the form of a man and appeared to and spoke to Abraham.
Abraham saw God in human form. He didn't see Him in all His glory.
And I have never suggested it either.
And you have been blinded by Watchtower.
There is only ONE God. He exists in the persons of Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Funny you should accuse me of breaking the first commandment, when it is the JW's who have more than one god. You claim we have almighty God and Mighty god.
It sure isn't what the flip flopping Watchtower teaches. I never imagined how ludicrous and filled with lies the Watchtower is until I took a good close look. How can anyone ever trust such a group?If Jesus said that "few" are on the road to life (Matt 7:13, 14) then it isn't what the majority teach that will be truth.....we need to understand what the devil is up to, and simply do the math.
cataway
Well-Known Member
but 10 & 11 blows your trinity out of the water
''
9 However, YOU are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the spirit, if God’s spirit truly dwells in YOU. But if anyone does not have Christ’s spirit, this one does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in union with YOU, the body indeed is dead on account of sin, but the spirit is life on account of righteousness. 11 If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in YOU, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make YOUR mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in YOU
''
cataway
Well-Known Member
20 “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also who shall believe in Me through their word,
21 that they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.
22 And the glory which Thou gavest Me I have given them, that they may be one, even as We are one:
23 I in them and Thou in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me.
it would seam you have some explaining to do
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It would seem you have some spelling to do.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I was speaking to Jay Jay about John 10.
Why did they accuse Jesus of blaspheming? What did Jesus say to cause them to accuse Him of blaspemy?
Where are you quoting from?
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
It seems you have some explaining to do. How does this blow 8 & 9 out of the water? Looks like it reinforces what is said in those 2 verses to me.
cataway
Well-Known Member
John 17
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
So what was your point? I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you were trying to say by quoting verse from John 17. You gave no explanation.
I ask you, why did the Jews accuse Jesus of blasphemy? Wasn't it because He was claiming to be God, making himself equal with to God?
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
1 Peter 3:9
"[Christ] was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting (Lit., "the patience of God was waiting.") in Noah's day, while the ark was being constructed." - 1 Peter 3:8b-10a
1. the spirits here were not dead humans (not that is was suggested in the thread but it is a common fallacy). there are the demons in Tartarus, as state of spiritual darkness.
2. Jesus was not made alive in the spirit till he was resurrected. So he did not preach to these ones till after he was no longer dead.
"[Christ] was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting (Lit., "the patience of God was waiting.") in Noah's day, while the ark was being constructed." - 1 Peter 3:8b-10a
1. the spirits here were not dead humans (not that is was suggested in the thread but it is a common fallacy). there are the demons in Tartarus, as state of spiritual darkness.
2. Jesus was not made alive in the spirit till he was resurrected. So he did not preach to these ones till after he was no longer dead.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
John 10:33
It was Jesus accusers that claimed that Jesus was "a god", or "God" if you prefer. this was not what Jesus said however. (There is harmony between "a god" and "God's Son" but not "God" and God's Son.") In verse 34 Jesus refers back to Psalms 82:6 as to human judges being gods. Then he goes on in his rebuttal to plainly say, "I am God's Son[.] If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." - John 36b-38
Jesus' rebuttal had nothing to do with declaring himself the Father, nor Almighty God. All he said was "I am God's Son, and I do the things my Father tells me to do."
This would have been a perfect opportunity to clearly state that he was God and Son. They were going to chase him off either way. But instead he unequivocally said "I am God's Son." - not God himself.
It was Jesus accusers that claimed that Jesus was "a god", or "God" if you prefer. this was not what Jesus said however. (There is harmony between "a god" and "God's Son" but not "God" and God's Son.") In verse 34 Jesus refers back to Psalms 82:6 as to human judges being gods. Then he goes on in his rebuttal to plainly say, "I am God's Son[.] If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father." - John 36b-38
Jesus' rebuttal had nothing to do with declaring himself the Father, nor Almighty God. All he said was "I am God's Son, and I do the things my Father tells me to do."
This would have been a perfect opportunity to clearly state that he was God and Son. They were going to chase him off either way. But instead he unequivocally said "I am God's Son." - not God himself.
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
Popular opinion dictated the actions of the Jews towards Jesus and his disciples. He said that their views would engender "hatred" because of accepting what Jesus taught. Are you running with popular opinion now? Do you accept what the majority believe? That is the measuring stick IMO. If "few" are on the road to life, then it is the beliefs of those "few" that are truth.....even if they disagree with the majority and are hated by millions. (John 15:18-21)
We have shown you this before.....
Jesus Christ himself said: “The Father is greater than I.”—John 14:28.
And as Cataway has shown you at John 17:21, 22, Jesus prayed regarding his followers: “That they may all be one,” and he added, “that they may be one even as we are one.” Were they all members of the trinity? The same "oneness" is applied to both.
You actually do a fair bit of denying yourself. We have explained the fuller meaning of those scriptures, but you don't accept the explanation....that is your choice.
Well you see, that is an opinion with no scriptural backing whatsoever.
Why do you imagine that it would take God to accomplish such a sacrifice in person, when the life of his firstborn son was sufficient?
You overestimate the value of the ransom or else you demand more than what Adam's life was worth. God did neither.
We have explained who the "spirits in prison" were....they were not disembodied souls of dead humans.....read the whole verse in context and you will see that these were the wicked spirit that were responsible for the wickedness in Noah's day. These were consigned to "Tartarus" which is mistranslated "hell" in many Bibles. It isn't Christendom's "hell" and only the demons were sent there.
Where does it actually say this in the Bible? God is immortal and cannot die....why do you keep ignoring this?
How can there be two parts of God in two different places at once but he's still one God. Seriously. The concept is bizarre.
I don't have to look it up in the original language to know that angels spoke for Jehovah. They spoke in his name and they spoke in the first person.
"NO MAN HAS EVER SEEN GOD" is a pretty clear and unequivocal statement, yet you ignore it so that you can keep your trinity.
The apostle John is telling you otherwise.
God has never taken human form. He is the Almighty who has his angels to carry out his will. They are his servants and they have spoken for him on many occasions.
To suggest that the Almighty God would need to lower himself to the status of a lower life form is ridiculous. Humans are lower than angels. It was Jesus who lowered himself even further to become human....not God.
Is this a standard phrase? Who have you been blinded by?
We all have those from whom we learn our truth. Just because you learned from a different teacher to me doesn't make you right. We will see in the judgment, won't we?
And the Bible might even suggest a duality of father and son in some verses, but there is no trinity and never was.
There is no "God the Son" and no "God the Holy Spirit" mentioned in one single passage of scripture. Those titles were made up by trinitarians.
The Bible actually says this but you have a selective memory apparently.
We worship the Almighty God Jehovah. He has a son who is subservient to him and who worships him also. We do not worship the son, but honor him as the "son of God" just as his apostles did.
We have explained "theos" in Greek. You choose to ignore it.
We have had clarifications over the years as we expect from a progressive revelation of truth. (Prov 4:18) You are free to accept whatever you like as your truth. If shooting the messenger works for you then so be it.
The "faithful and discreet slave" was to dispense "food at the proper time" to the rest of Christ's household, which means that we are told what we need to know, when we need to know it. We are not told to feed ourselves nor to pick and choose what we will eat. We are told to be obedient to our leaders, so that is what we follow. (Heb 13:17) Who do you obey?
There are only two tables from which we can feed....."the table of Jehovah and the table of demons". (1 Cor 10:21) We choose which table has the most palatable food for us. One is healthful and the other is spiritually poisoned. Just understand that not all will be able to discern the difference. (Matt 7:21-23)
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
1 Peter 3:19-20
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits--
to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
I am of the opinion that Jesus proclaimed God's truth to the fallen angels and to the spirits of old who were disobedient in the time of Noah and who were being held in bonds (1 Peter 3:19-20).
I
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
oh man. nice catch. I was overtired and did not realize how quickly a nap was sneaking up on me. I quoted the right verses, but cited the wrong ones.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
I have done the same many times.oh man. nice catch. I was overtired and did not realize how quickly a nap was sneaking up on me. I quoted the right verses, but cited the wrong ones.
katiemygirl
CHRISTIAN
Jesus was temporarily made lower than the angels. He took on human flesh. He was subservient to the Father, always doing the Father's will. However, He was fully divine.
5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in qthe form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Phil. 2
Yes it is, but that does not change the fact that the Jews tried to stone Jesus because they thought He was claiming to be God, having equality with Him. Obviously, the Jews had no problem believing thst Jesus claimed himself to be God. Why do you?
I see absolutely nothing in the context, which says it was "the wicked spirits who were responsible for the wickedness." You have inserted another party here. It clearly says it was those spirits, who at the time when Noah was building his boat, disobeyed.
19 So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— 20 those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in that terrible flood.
1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
God is not broken into parts, nor is there more than one God.
I have no problem believing that God can be
In a million places at once. It's called faith.
"With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26. How could you ever doubt it?
You do need to look it up! No christian should ever be afraid to challenge what she believes. That is the duty of all of us. I am asking you to look in your own Kingdom Interlinear like I did. There are three visitors. One is YHWH. It is YHWH himself who speaks to Abraham.
14 And Jehovah saith unto Abraham, `Why [is] this? Sarah hath laughed, saying, Is it true really -- I bear -- and I am aged? Is any thing too wonderful for Jehovah? at the appointed time I return unto thee, about the time of life, and Sarah hath a son.'
17 and Jehovah said, `Am I concealing from Abraham that which I am about to do,
20 And Jehovah saith, `The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah -- because great; and their sin -- because exceeding grievous:
21 I go down now, and see whether according to its cry which is coming unto Me they have done completely -- and if not -- I know;'
22 and the men turn from thence, and go towards Sodom; and Abraham is yet standing before Jehovah.
And to suggest that He couldn't or wouldn't is ridiculous because with God all things are possible.
How about if we both take the words of Paul and make them our own.Is this a standard phrase? Who have you been blinded by?
"Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone." Col. 4:6
None of us have it 100% right.
Fo the record, I don't use the term trinity because it's not in the Bible. Quite frankly, none of us truly understands the nature of God.
No, my memory is not selective. I worship the one true God.
JW's worshiped Jesus until 1954. Worship of Jesus was encouraged. Later it was called idolatry. IOW, all JW's who died prior to 1954 are lost in sin? That is but one of the changes in doctrine. Watchtower has no credibility. I could never trust an organization that changes doctrine. That is the reason I left catholicism. They, too, have an earthly head who claims to have the ability to interpret the Scriptures for everyone else. Yes, it is important to have leaders (elders/shepherds) in the congregation who help to keep us on the right path, and to keep false teachers out, but their role never has nor will be to CHANGE doctrine.
God does not speak directly to Watchtower to clarify anything. Truth is not progressive. Truth NEVER changes. Watchtower hides behind Proverbs 4:18. The light gets brighter does not mean that you keep extinguishing the old light in favor of new light. Watchtower takes Prov. 4:18 totally out of context and then uses it for an excuse for defending their numerous false prophesies.
I obey our congregation's elders only insofar as they obey the Scriptures. If my elders tell me that I must honor gay marriages, I will not obey.
Nowhere in the parable does it say the food is spiritual. Watchtower has inserted this word, going beyond what is written. The parable teaches us to be ready when Jesus comes. God has given us each a gift, which enables us to grow His kingdom. In this parable, the servant is serving food. I have no reason to believe that this person is not doing precisely what the parable says. He is feeding people who are poor and destitute, just as any person does today who works in a food kitchen. There isn't the slightest hint that the food here is spiritual. The lesson of the parable is to be sure that when Jesus comes, we are using the gift God has given us.
In the context of 1 Cor. 10:21, Paul is comparing the Lord's table (communion), with the table of demons (food sacrificed to idols).
From what I can understand, only the anointed JW takes the Lord's Supper. Where does that leave all other JW's? Which table are they partaking of?
Jay Jay, these posts are wayyyyyy too long. I just spent over two hours responding to you. Can we work towards shortening them?
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