Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[JayJayDee]

Nor does one find the words "Christian" of "Jehovah witnesses" in the revealing of Christ either, not from any words of Christ.

Acts 11:26...."and when he found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch." (Holman)

So followers of Christ came to be called "Christians". Before that, Christ's followers were said to belong to "the Way", since Jesus said he was "the way the truth and the life". Does that mean then that you refuse to be called a Christian because Christ never said it?

BTW If you notice, there in that verse, large numbers of Christians met together.
Paul said it was something they should not neglect, especially as they saw "the day" (of judgment as these last days draw to a close) drawing near" (Heb 10:24, 25) No lone Christians operating independently of the congregation are ever seen in the scriptures.

And Witnesses? The Bible is full of Jehovah's witnesses. Anyone who testifies about Jehovah is a witness. Any court of man has witnesses, as truth is established by that means. Some are reliable witnesses and others are false witnesses.

We take our name from God's own words to his prophet Isaiah....

Isaiah 43:10.....“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me."

Being a "witness of Jehovah" is what Jesus was.

Revelation 3:14.....“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this..."

Do your natural eyes still see Jews as a heritage and literally? Are there two separate and different forms of salvation that God offers? One for the Jews and one for Jehovah witnesses? Do you teach that every heritage Jew is an auto-save because they are heritage Jews?

Natural Jews have no place in the kingdom apart from faith in God's son. (Matt 24:37-39)
The Jewish nation was not chosen by God because they were in any way superior to any other race. All humans descended from Noah after the flood. It was because of one man's (Abraham's) phenomenal faith that his descendants were given the privilege of producing the traceable family line of the promised Messiah. It's how man would know that Messiah came....born into the right family line, at the exact location, and at the time indicated by prophesy.

After being given first option to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" these descendants of father Abraham, demonstrated that they preferred their own man-made traditions over the word of God and murdered the one sent to save them. They had habitually either ignored or silenced the prophets sent to them. Jesus was just another false Messiah to them.

Having fulfilled his covenant with Israel, God abandoned them, as Jesus said. A new spiritual nation emerged that God considered to be the "seed of Abraham" by merit of the fact that their circumcision was now that of the heart by spirit, not on the flesh or by birth. So fleshly Jews no longer have God's blessing or protection as is plainly evident in the world at present.

There are two groups that merit salvation by Jesus sacrifice....."the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16 made up of both Jewish and gentile Christians who are chosen to rule as "kings and priests" with Christ in heaven) and those over whom these one will rule in the kingdom. (Rev 21:1-5)

In his sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that there were those who would "see God" and those who would "inherit the earth".
His model prayer asked that God's will be done "on earth as it is in heaven" so the earth is an intrinsic part of God's purpose. It is where God placed us as material beings.....initially to live forever. (Gen 3:22-24)

The apostle John in his Revelation, saw two groups before the throne of God.....one finite group (144,000) seen in heaven and another unnumbered group who are seen glorifying God and owing their salvation to the Lamb. (Rev 7:4, 9, 10, 13, 14) These, he said, had "come out of the great tribulation" which is the last part of the sign Jesus gave to identify the last days or "the end of the age" here on earth. (Matt 24:21)

Your beliefs do not align with scripture in any way. Nor do they tie in with God's purpose for man and this magnificent planet. Here is where our future lies....not heaven.

 

[JayJayDee]

Then, of course, even the Jehovah Witness Bible expresses that Jesus is God Jehovah

Please supply this evidence.....

 

[JayJayDee]

There are no verses that tell us that he was in heaven before his brith. And it wasnt really a few days, it was 40, then he went into heaven. First time too.

OK, how do we know that Jesus existed in heaven as a being rather than as an abstract concept in the mind of God?

The inspired description of wisdom found in the book of Proverbs reads: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”

This passage cannot be speaking merely about divine wisdom or wisdom in the abstract. Why not? Because the wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created, as the beginning of Jehovah’s way. Jehovah God has always existed and has always been wise. (Psalm 90:1, 2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” Furthermore, this wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person.—Proverbs 8:1.

The book of Proverbs says that long ago wisdom was beside Jehovah, the Creator, as “a master worker.” That certainly applies to Jesus. Long before he came to earth, Jesus worked so closely with Jehovah that God’s Word says: “He is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”—Colossians 1:17; Revelation 3:14.

Depicting the Son of God as wisdom is appropriate, since he was the One who revealed Jehovah’s wise purposes and decrees. During his prehuman existence, Jesus was God’s Word, or Spokesman. (John 1:1) He is described as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30) What a beautiful description of the Son of God, whose fondness for mankind moved him to give his life as a ransom in their behalf!—John 3:16. ('06 WT "Questions from Readers")

If Jesus was used as the one "through whom" all creation was brought into existence, then he did not come into existence himself only at his human birth. He came from the Father as his "only begotten son". His "begetting" was not his human form but his "birth" as the first and only direct creation of his Father. In this, he is a unique "son of God".

Rev 3:12 calls Jesus the "beginning of God's creation."

 

[melk]

I would correct a portion of this and say most believe it is the same as God - the Father. Not that it is a mystery but rather a revelation that is accepted because it is clearly supported by scriptures throughout the two Testaments.

Corrections accepted, except for the scriptural support, which I think is not so clear.
By the way, let' not let the nature of God be a source of division, but of diversity.

 

[JayJayDee]

Exactly! There was no “a” in Greek and “bias dictates whether to use the ‘a’ or not” and you guys chose to use the “a” even if it’s against the Greek word order. Trinitarians did not alter John 1:1 by adding and subtracting from Greek to English but you guys did.

If you could only read and understand this then we won’t have any problem with John 1:1:

Our first problem is with our understanding of the word "god" (theos) in Greek. This is a title NOT exclusive to the Father. It simply means a "mighty one" or "powerful one". You begin with a false premise and then build your case on it. It doesn't hold water from the outset.

When a sentence in Greek has both "theos" and "ho theos" it is differentiating between two "mighty ones". Who can deny that Jesus was such a mighty one in heaven before his human birth? As the Logos, he was God's spokesman and continued to be such on earth. But Jesus is never referred to as "ho theos". The term theos is applied to even powerful human judges in Israel by Jehovah himself.

John 10:31-36...."The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (NASB)

"Theos" doesn't necessarily mean only "God" in the English understanding of the word....so you see that to distinguish Jehovah from other "mighty ones" the Greek uses the definite article "ho theos" meaning "THE God". There is only one "ho theos" and it isn't Jesus.

His address to the Jews was a perfect time to reveal himself as God....but he did no such thing. He identified himself as "the Son of God". There you have it...plain and simple.

In John 1:18 it clearly states that "no man has ever seen God" when it is obvious that many saw Jesus who is described as "the only begotten god" in that verse.
Again the term "god" is in reference to a "mighty one" not necessarily someone who is worshipped as "THE God".
Only a blind person could fail to see this.

There was no other “a god/s” before the beginning.

Again we come to the definition of the word "god". Open your eyes...take off the blinkers.

Since "ho theos" has no beginning, then we are speaking about the beginning of creation. God's "only begotten son" is the "beginning of God's creation". (Rev 3:14) There it is in black and white again.

We will never agree because you don't want to see the unscriptural origins of this triune god you worship, nor the implications of placing a created son in the same position as the Creator.

It isn't as though we have failed to furnish scriptural evidence for our position. You just cannot see it. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

We are done now. There is no more to say. Those who have bothered to read this thread and its hundreds of posts will come to their own conclusions and wear the consequences of their choices....as will we all.

 

[Eileen]

Let me try to explain you in a simple manner. For christians, Jesus has a central role in the new convenat made by God with his people, both because of his atonement and his teachings, as well as the role he plays in God's kingdom.
The controversy arises as we seek to understand his nature. Every christian agrees that it is sinless. Most would say it has a divine character. Others go far and believe it is the same as God's. These last ones usually group together as trinitarians. They believe in one God, constituted by three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holly Spirit. And present it as a mistery to be accepted by the believers.
The Trinity is a concept not clearly suported by Scriptures. While the NT is full of passages that names Jesus the Son of God, there is none that clearly titles him God himself, placing him in the same level as the Father.

I am sorry, but what I meant was no one can explain the trinity in a way as convince everyone of its validity- I started out as a Catholic and after 12 years of Catholic education I still felt the doctrine was contrived and murky without real substantive Biblical support. I then went on to Baptist, Charismatic and Hebrew roots-I even taught in these groups but I found that the final answer was always -"You just have to have faith and accept it"- an answer I find most unsatisfactory. I now trust in the One Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the same understanding of One as the Jews have and I believe Yeshua is HaShem's chosen Messiah, our earthly King and High Priest. Having identified HaShem as the One and Only Elohim and having identified Yeshua, the man, as Messiah, King and Priest everything is a lot cleared and makes perfect sense to me' But I thank you for your attempt to explain it for me though you added nothing to the augments I was already aware of.

So, my point was really a statement that no one can explain the trinity so as to convince everyone else. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[moorea944]

I don't understand... are you saying that if you are looking through scripture as trinitarian, it is not scripture?


John 8:58 Jesus answered, "The truth is, I existed before Abraham was even born!"

John 8:38 I am telling you what I saw when I was with my Father.

Phil 2:
5 Your attitude should be the same that Christ Jesus had.
6 Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God.
7 He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form.
8 And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross.

There are others.

Your verses are not trinitarian at all, you just taking them out of context. I'll show you. Plus, I dont know what bible your reading, but it is not correct.....

58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." This wonderful verse is telling us that before Abraham, the gospel was preached. That's all. People knew about a coming Messiah. It has nothing to do with pre-existance.



38 "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father." Is this telling us that Jesus was in heaven before his birth? No, of course not. Look at other books of John where the Father and son are one in purpose and mind. Jesus does his Father's will, not his own.



5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

How was Christ in the form of God? He had the semblance and demeanour of the Father mentally and morally. His character was the express image of his Father's person. (Heb. 1:3).

Sometimes trinitarians stress that Christ was originally in the form of God - i.e., "being" in the form of God is taken to mean that he was in fact "Very God" before his "incarnation". The Greek verb "huparchon" refutes this position since it is in the imperfect tense which expresses action yet, or still in course of performance. Time signified by an imperfect tense is of a continual, habitual, repeated action, so that "being in the form of God" means "being, and continuing to be in the form of God". Christ never ceased to be in the form of God since in semblance and demeanour from his birth he habitually exemplified his Father's character.

The Pharisees thought Jesus was saying that he was God, but in verse 7 it says, That he made no reputation and took up him the form of a servant. I think when you read "took on a form' you think he's changing into something else. That's the problem. But these verses in no way suggest anything pre-existence.

 

[melk]

I am sorry, but what I meant was no one can explain the trinity in a way as convince everyone of its validity- I started out as a Catholic and after 12 years of Catholic education I still felt the doctrine was contrived and murky without real substantive Biblical support. I then went on to Baptist, Charismatic and Hebrew roots-I even taught in these groups but I found that the final answer was always -"You just have to have faith and accept it"- an answer I find most unsatisfactory. I now trust in the One Elohim of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the same understanding of One as the Jews have and I believe Yeshua is HaShem's chosen Messiah, our earthly King and High Priest. Having identified HaShem as the One and Only Elohim and having identified Yeshua, the man, as Messiah, King and Priest everything is a lot cleared and makes perfect sense to me' But I thank you for your attempt to explain it for me though you added nothing to the augments I was already aware of.

So, my point was really a statement that no one can explain the trinity so as to convince everyone else. Sorry for the confusion.

Yes, there was a misunderstood.
If you were following the posts of this thread, you woud have noticed that, at the moment you posted, nobody was discussing the trinity, itself, but other subjects related to their faith, in a very unfriendly way. I thought your post were kind of an advice for people to remain on the the real subject of the thread, and that is why I gave you that answer.
Now that you clarified your intentions, your question-answer seems pretty reasonable. Indeed, there seems to be no explanation for the trinity. The ones that believe in it, either accept it as a mistery or as a revealed fact.

 

[Kenny]

Corrections accepted, except for the scriptural support, which I think is not so clear.
By the way, let' not let the nature of God be a source of division, but of diversity.

I always say that we need to come to the unity of the faith and not necessarily the unity of doctrine

 

[Kenny]

Your verses are not trinitarian at all, you just taking them out of context. I'll show you. Plus, I dont know what bible your reading, but it is not correct.....

58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." This wonderful verse is telling us that before Abraham, the gospel was preached. That's all. People knew about a coming Messiah. It has nothing to do with preexistence.

I understand that it is your viewpoint. The majority of the scholars wouldn't agree.

38 "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father." Is this telling us that Jesus was in heaven before his birth? No, of course not. Look at other books of John where the Father and son are one in purpose and mind. Jesus does his Father's will, not his own.

Here I would disagree completely. It says "with my Father" and not from my Father. Later on Jesus said "glory me with the glory I once had with you".

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

How was Christ in the form of God? He had the semblance and demeanour of the Father mentally and morally. His character was the express image of his Father's person. (Heb. 1:3).

You are applying one scripture erroneously. Hebrews is speaking of the form of Jesus while on the earth which, if applied to Philippians, would apply to vs 7 when he took on the form of a servant and became in the likeness of men. vs 6 talks about the his position as part of the Godhead.

Sometimes trinitarians stress that Christ was originally in the form of God - i.e., "being" in the form of God is taken to mean that he was in fact "Very God" before his "incarnation". The Greek verb "huparchon" refutes this position since it is in the imperfect tense which expresses action yet, or still in course of performance. Time signified by an imperfect tense is of a continual, habitual, repeated action, so that "being in the form of God" means "being, and continuing to be in the form of God". Christ never ceased to be in the form of God since in semblance and demeanour from his birth he habitually exemplified his Father's character.

The Pharisees thought Jesus was saying that he was God, but in verse 7 it says, That he made no reputation and took up him the form of a servant. I think when you read "took on a form' you think he's changing into something else. That's the problem. But these verses in no way suggest anything pre-existence.

You have just expressed why you are wrong. The Pharisees, who know Hebrew much better than you or I, understood that he WAS saying he was God.

Being (uparcwn). Rather, "existing," present active participle of uparcw. In the form of God (en morph qeou). Morph means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ. A prize (arpagmon). Predicate accusative with hghsato. Originally words in -mo signified the act, not the result (-ma). The few examples of arpagmo (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to arpagma, like baptismo and baptisma. That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery"). To be on an equality with God (to einai isa qeoi). Accusative articular infinitive object of hghsato, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case qewi after isa). Isa is adverbial use of neuter plural with einai as in Revelation 21:16 . Emptied himself (eauton ekenwse). First aorist active indicative of kenow, old verb from keno, empty. Of what did Christ empty himself? Not of his divine nature. That was impossible. He continued to be the Son of God. There has arisen a great controversy on this word, a Kenosi doctrine. Undoubtedly Christ gave up his environment of glory. He took upon himself limitations of place (space) and of knowledge and of power, though still on earth retaining more of these than any mere man. It is here that men should show restraint and modesty, though it is hard to believe that Jesus limited himself by error of knowledge and certainly not by error of conduct. He was without sin, though tempted as we are. "He stripped himself of the insignia of majesty" (Lightfoot).

 

[JM2C]

3. He told us to "love" our enemies, not fight with them in worldly conflicts.

He actually instructed us to be "NO part of this world" in the ways that would make us break God's laws.

Do JW's break God's law by being part of this world?

Do they support their nation's wars by endorsing soldiers and chaplains in the armed forces to encourage those who spill innocent blood....even of their own brothers? (John 15:18-21; 1 John 4:20, 21; Isa 2:2-4)

Yes! Your tax dollars are supporting all these things. Your tax dollars are supporting these soldiers so you don’t have to it yourself. They are being killed so you could live free and practice your religion. It’s against your religion to salute a flag but this flag is the one protecting your freedom to practice your religion. Do you think you can practice your religion in Iraq or Afghanistan? These soldiers go to these places so you could stay here and practice your religion.

All glory goes to God the Almighty. Not to a team, flag, person. Voting is being part of the world.

Christians do not give glory to a team but to God. Christians do not give glory to a flag but to God. Soldiers salute to a flag not because they are glorifying it in exchange to God. Have you heard of the “Pledge of Allegiance”? If one of your members decided to become a US citizen s/he would have to recite this to become one. S/He cannot say “it’s against my religion to recite the “Pledge of Allegiance”.

Do you think banks are not part of this world? Yes, they are part of this world but why you keep your money in the bank? Your retirement money is probably invested in American stocks that supports or related to wars and teams that you alienated yourself from but benefited from them.

Where do you think watchtower invest their money? Any corporation in America is part of the world.

 

[JM2C]

4. He told us to go out to the people with his message of salvation, (Matt 10:11-15) not sit cozied up in a building waiting for the lost sheep to wander in.....if they can figure out which building to wander into.


5. The scriptures tell us not to mix true worship with false worship, but Christendom has mixed them for centuries, failing to separate themselves from pagan festivals and doctrines introduced centuries after Jesus died, and thus eliminating themselves from being seen as God's "sons and daughters". (2 Cor 6:14-18; Matt 7:21-23)


So can you see that Christendom is breaking all these laws whilst you ignore them to concentrate on the supposed faults of JW's? Whatever failure you see on our part....we are NO part of Christendom for very good reasons. They are the "weeds" of Jesus parable, sown so long ago that no one questions the validity or origins of their beliefs and practices.

More good deeds I guess.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

Lk 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
Lk 18:10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Lk 18:11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
Lk 18:12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
Lk 18:13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
Lk 18:14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[Unification]

Acts 11:26...."and when he found him he brought him to Antioch. For a whole year they met with the church and taught large numbers. The disciples were first called Christians at Antioch." (Holman)

So followers of Christ came to be called "Christians". Before that, Christ's followers were said to belong to "the Way", since Jesus said he was "the way the truth and the life". Does that mean then that you refuse to be called a Christian because Christ never said it?



BTW If you notice, there in that verse, large numbers of Christians met together.
Paul said it was something they should not neglect, especially as they saw "the day" (of judgment as these last days draw to a close) drawing near" (Heb 10:24, 25) No lone Christians operating independently of the congregation are ever seen in the scriptures.


And Witnesses? The Bible is full of Jehovah's witnesses. Anyone who testifies about Jehovah is a witness. Any court of man has witnesses, as truth is established by that means. Some are reliable witnesses and others are false witnesses.

We take our name from God's own words to his prophet Isaiah....

Isaiah 43:10.....“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me."

Being a "witness of Jehovah" is what Jesus was.

Revelation 3:14.....“To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this..."



Natural Jews have no place in the kingdom apart from faith in God's son. (Matt 24:37-39)
The Jewish nation was not chosen by God because they were in any way superior to any other race. All humans descended from Noah after the flood. It was because of one man's (Abraham's) phenomenal faith that his descendants were given the privilege of producing the traceable family line of the promised Messiah. It's how man would know that Messiah came....born into the right family line, at the exact location, and at the time indicated by prophesy.

After being given first option to become "a kingdom of priests and a holy nation" these descendants of father Abraham, demonstrated that they preferred their own man-made traditions over the word of God and murdered the one sent to save them. They had habitually either ignored or silenced the prophets sent to them. Jesus was just another false Messiah to them.

Having fulfilled his covenant with Israel, God abandoned them, as Jesus said. A new spiritual nation emerged that God considered to be the "seed of Abraham" by merit of the fact that their circumcision was now that of the heart by spirit, not on the flesh or by birth. So fleshly Jews no longer have God's blessing or protection as is plainly evident in the world at present.

There are two groups that merit salvation by Jesus sacrifice....."the Israel of God" (Gal 6:16 made up of both Jewish and gentile Christians who are chosen to rule as "kings and priests" with Christ in heaven) and those over whom these one will rule in the kingdom. (Rev 21:1-5)

In his sermon on the Mount, Jesus said that there were those who would "see God" and those who would "inherit the earth".
His model prayer asked that God's will be done "on earth as it is in heaven" so the earth is an intrinsic part of God's purpose. It is where God placed us as material beings.....initially to live forever. (Gen 3:22-24)

The apostle John in his Revelation, saw two groups before the throne of God.....one finite group (144,000) seen in heaven and another unnumbered group who are seen glorifying God and owing their salvation to the Lamb. (Rev 7:4, 9, 10, 13, 14) These, he said, had "come out of the great tribulation" which is the last part of the sign Jesus gave to identify the last days or "the end of the age" here on earth. (Matt 24:21)

Your beliefs do not align with scripture in any way. Nor do they tie in with God's purpose for man and this magnificent planet. Here is where our future lies....not heaven.

More good deeds I guess.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

Lk 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
Lk 18:10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Lk 18:11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
Lk 18:12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
Lk 18:13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
Lk 18:14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

More good deeds I guess.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

Lk 18:9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable:
Lk 18:10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
Lk 18:11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector.
Lk 18:12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
Lk 18:13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
Lk 18:14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Beautiful parable, and directly before that ...
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others. Ties in going directly back the the previous chapter.

Luke 17:26-37King James Version (KJV)
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. (Entering God's rest after sin is destroyed in the truly humble and repentant, cleansing and washing by God's Word)

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
(Day Lot left slavery to sin, destruction of sin within, baptism of Fire)

30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
(Revelation of Christ in the heart)

31 In that day, HE (exalt of oneself) which shall be upon the housetop, and HIS stuff in the house (sin inside body) let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field (slavery to sin) let him likewise not return back. (Once forgiven and cleansed... Don't turn back to old ways.) prior we see 10 lepers(sinners) cleansed, with 1 coming and staying with the Lord and 9 running off to mankind.

32 Remember Lot's wife. (Went back to slavery of sin, chose mankind's teachings over Lord's.)

33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. (This gives the answer to verses 34-36, as well as the one who exalts oneself and the one who becomes humble)

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. (2 men referring to same individual, old man left behind... New man created.)

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37 And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
(Your physical body, return/revelation of Christ in ones heart) father and son making abode with a believer. Coming to one.


The kingdom is WITHIN. The sinner not looking up but looking within, humbly, and to his body(breasts).

One can look at the days of Noe as the destruction of the world drowned with flood. Or one can see spiritually and realize this is the day ones world of own ways are made low and hunbled. Losing of ones old life.

The scriptures will never make much sense until one starts applying them all spiritually, which is within the human. Literally, is outside the human. Kingdom isn't of this world. Kingdom is within. Spiritually.

 

[JM2C]

In John 1:18 it clearly states that "no man has ever seen God" when it is obvious that many saw Jesus who is described as "the only begotten god" in that verse.

From verse 1 to verse 18 is the chronological order of the narrative on how the “and the Word was God –v1” that “became flesh –v14”.

Again, we go back to verse 1 in the 2nd clause it says, “and the Word was with God”, i.e., before the Word became flesh in verse 14, the Word was with God as stated in verse 18 “the only begotten God in the bosom of the Father”. IOW, before the Word became flesh He was with God or in the bosom of the Father in eternity.

The Jews obviously would see the Lord Jesus Christ in the flesh during HIS earthly ministry as recorded in the 4 Gospels. The 4 Gospels especially John’s are for us to understand today that the Lord Jesus Christ, the Word, was really God that became flesh.

If you cannot follow this order on how “the Word was God” became “flesh” then you won’t be able understand Christ’s atonement. God cannot die so God must become flesh to die for “our sins -1Pe 2:24”

1Pe 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed.

 

[JM2C]

Who can deny that Jesus was such a mighty one in heaven before his human birth? As the Logos, he was God's spokesman and continued to be such on earth. But Jesus is never referred to as "ho theos". The term theos is applied to even powerful human judges in Israel by Jehovah himself.

John 10:31-36...."The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (NASB)

If, terms like “gods” can be applied to ordinary mortals, how could they, the Jews, accused The Lord Jesus Christ of blasphemy when He applied it to Himself, “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? –John 10:36”

The Lord Jesus did not deny any of their accusation but even confirmed that He is God, the Son of God who is equal with God “and I give unto them eternal life –John 10:28” from the following verses John 10:34-36 and even repeated this assertion in verses John 10:37-39.

 

[Kenny]

One could also look at it this way...

When a corporation is going bankrupt but wants to live if must find another corporation that wishes to purchase it but then the purchasing corporation must prove that it can absorb the debt of the bankrupt corporation.

Mankind was bankrupt with sin but desires to live. Another bankrupt man cannot absorb the cost mankind. Angels, though not bankrupt, do not have enough assets to purchase the totality of bankrupt man. Only God has enough assets (righteousness) to absorb the cost of purchasing mankind and still remain solvent and thus became a man to fulfill the purchase price.

 

[JM2C]

Shhhh, don't tell. A new version may have to be created.

That is a good one

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes! Your tax dollars are supporting all these things. Your tax dollars are supporting these soldiers so you don’t have to it yourself. They are being killed so you could live free and practice your religion. It’s against your religion to salute a flag but this flag is the one protecting your freedom to practice your religion. Do you think you can practice your religion in Iraq or Afghanistan? These soldiers go to these places so you could stay here and practice your religion.

Is obedience to the Christ to be taken into consideration here at all?
Did Jesus teach us to pay our taxes? Were the first Christians told to pay their taxes? (Rom 13:7) If the answer is "yes" then the money was paid to the Roman Empire and supported their military.....so what was Jesus telling his followers to do? There are a lot of things that are paid for by tax money. If we take advantage of schools, hospitals and drive on roads, bridges and highways that our tax money pays for....do we get to choose how that money is spent? If the answer is "no" then we have no responsibility apart from the payment itself. We do not answer for how the money is spent; the government does.

The rest is nationalistic rhetoric, fed by propaganda and sucked up by the patriots like a sponge. People are educated from infancy to treat their own nation as if it were their mother and God was their father. It is pure indoctrination and places human emotions on equal footing for both. People don't see the problem because they were raised not to see it.

To salute the flag is, according to law, an act of worship. Did you know that? That piece of cloth, no matter whose nation it represents, then becomes an idol. Saluting a flag therefore breaks the law of God.

The national anthem of any nation is a hymn, glorifying one nation above all others. It is sung with all the appropriate reverence.....haven't you noticed?

Soldiers are being killed because they joined the military. They train to kill other human beings when their governments tell them to. The political agenda of their government is what they are being killed for. Nothing to do with Christ or Christianity because Christ's instruction was to "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you". Do you see room in those words to kill anyone for any reason? Can a Christian even train to kill, though he may never do so? (Rom 12:17-21)

The nations have always had their military, but Christians were never told to be among them. In fact the teachings of the Christ preclude it. Christendom sent her soldiers in battle in two World Wars, but often the ones they were killing were fellow "Christians". This was a direct violation of Christ's commands. (1John 4:20, 21) How could they be so blind? They had blind guides. (Matt15:14)

Christians do not give glory to a team but to God. Christians do not give glory to a flag but to God. Soldiers salute to a flag not because they are glorifying it in exchange to God. Have you heard of the “Pledge of Allegiance”? If one of your members decided to become a US citizen s/he would have to recite this to become one. S/He cannot say “it’s against my religion to recite the “Pledge of Allegiance”.

No Christian can pledge allegiance to a country by knowingly reciting the words of citizenship to mean that they will break God's law if told to do so. They will uphold the law of any nation and pay their taxes and be exemplary citizens, but they will never raise a hand against anyone in any political conflict. They have refused to "learn war anymore". (Isa 2:2-4)

Do you think banks are not part of this world? Yes, they are part of this world but why you keep your money in the bank? Your retirement money is probably invested in American stocks that supports or related to wars and teams that you alienated yourself from but benefited from them.

Where do you think watchtower invest their money? Any corporation in America is part of the world.

You are really grasping at straws now. Banks? What have banks got to do with Jesus and his teachings? There are many things that are "part of this world" that have little to do with our worship and the breaking of the laws and commands of our God. The monetary system is one of them. There was a monetary system back in Jesus' day but there is nothing in Jesus' words to tell his disciples to separate from it. It had its purpose and the warning was about the "love of money" not the currency itself.

Paul said to the Corinthians...."In my letter I wrote you to quit mixing in company with fornicators, not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world." (1 Cor 6:9, 10)

Christianity is about balance. It's about being "in the world" but "not of it". It's about not adopting its attitudes or lifestyle and knowing where to draw the line when it comes to obeying our authorities. (1John 2:15-17; 5:19)

Rom 13:1-4 is offset by Acts 5:27-29. We "obey God as ruler rather then men". If we are told by our authorities to disobey a law of God, we will not obey them, no matter what the penalty is. Governments know that it pointless requiring JW's to something against their conscience. We follow the example of the first Christians who were given the option of being torn apart by wild animals for Roman entertainment, or placing a pinch of incense on the alter as an act of worship to the Emperor, and walking free. They chose an awful death, not only for themselves but for their children as well. That is the faith that we must have....imitating the Christ. No compromise.

Christendom has no line between the law of God and the commands of men. That is why Jesus will fail to recognize them on judgment day as his disciples. They say that they obey Christ, but do not follow through with actions. That is hypocrisy....the very thing Jesus castigated the Pharisees for. (Matt 7:21-23; 23:1-3, 13-32)

Christendom is not "Christian" in her attitudes or conduct, regardless of what she says. Talk is cheap. "By their fruits" Jesus said we would recognise his true disciples. What do Christendom's actions tell us? What do they tell Jesus, who will judge her?

 

[JayJayDee]

If, terms like “gods” can be applied to ordinary mortals, how could they, the Jews, accused The Lord Jesus Christ of blasphemy when He applied it to Himself, “the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? –John 10:36”

The Lord Jesus did not deny any of their accusation but even confirmed that He is God, the Son of God who is equal with God “and I give unto them eternal life –John 10:28” from the following verses John 10:34-36 and even repeated this assertion in verses John 10:37-39.

Look at the whole passage.....where is the prelude to the verse you quoted as John 10: 28? Not once did he even infer it, but clearly said that the term "gods" could be applied to humans by the Father himself.

John 10:24-38...."The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came and the Scripture cannot be broken, do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” (NASB)

Now read those words without the trinitarian blinkers and what do they say? Who did the Jews claim Jesus was by saying God was his Father?And who did Jesus say he was?
Now show us where in all of the NT where "son of God" means "God the Son"? You must can't see the difference, can you?

Saying that he and the Father were "one" was also said of Jesus and his disciples.

John 17:20-21....“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."

This is a unity of purpose and spirit, between Jesus and his Father and between them and his disciples.....unless you believe that Jesus' disciples were part of the trinity too?

You trinity is not in the Bible....but "a man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still". You have your fingers firmly stuck in your trinitarian ears. The devil has you worshipping the wrong "god".

 

[JayJayDee]

One could also look at it this way...

When a corporation is going bankrupt but wants to live if must find another corporation that wishes to purchase it but then the purchasing corporation must prove that it can absorb the debt of the bankrupt corporation.

Mankind was bankrupt with sin but desires to live. Another bankrupt man cannot absorb the cost mankind. Angels, though not bankrupt, do not have enough assets to purchase the totality of bankrupt man. Only God has enough assets (righteousness) to absorb the cost of purchasing mankind and still remain solvent and thus became a man to fulfill the purchase price.

Nice analogy...except it is flawed.

Angels do not have the assets of themselves, it is true, but God gave one specially chosen and trusted firstborn son, a bag of them to take with him as surety of the transaction. It was the ransom price for the liberation of mankind from sin and death. A perfect life, offered for a perfect life. Jesus' life atoned for the life Adam's sin stole from his children by disobedience.

It's called agency.

God has used his angelic agents all through history. Starting with his precious "firstborn", he brought all creation into existence "through" him. (Col 1:15, 16; John 1:2) He was the "beginning" of God's creation (Rev 3:14) and was used by the Father in bringing all other things into being. (Gen 1:26; Prov 8:30, 31)

Not once has the Father needed to do a thing "in person"...why would he? He is the Grand Creator and his servants do the will of the Father, always. They live to serve his interests and his purpose. They are not slaves but willing servants in the household of a very benevolent Master. They love him and it is their desire to serve him to the very best of their ability.....should we be any different?