Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[JM2C]

Yes, I have looked at this verse many times. It does not sit as a mystery to me. John 1:3 tells us who God was talking to - Jesus in his pre-human form (the only human to have lived before becoming a human.)

NO evidence in the scripture that there was a pre-human before Genesis 1:26. If you can produce a verse in the bible that will literally say that there was a pre-human that God created before the beginning or just before Genesis 1:26 then I will CEASE ARGUING with you guys/jw.

 

[JM2C]

"and God said, Let us..." That is not a trinity at all. That is "Elohim" in Hebrew. That is Yahweh and the angels. God manfestation. God manifest in a multitude. That angels. Jesus wasnt born yet. He did not pre-exist. God said he will be begotten, he will be my first born.

God and His angels? Really? Where is your evidence?

I have mine here.

Isaiah saw the Lord Jesus Christ as the Lord in Isaiah’s 6:1.

ISA 6:1 In the year of King Uzziah’s death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple.
JN 12:41 These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.

Do you think John made a mistake here?

ISA 6:8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

“who will go for Us? –Isaiah 6:8” Where did we see this?

GE 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”

GE 11:7 “Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, so that they will not understand one another’s speech.”

Facts about angels:

Angels worship God in his presence -Rev 7:11 See also Rev 3:5; 8:2

Angels praise God for his works. Angels praise God’s work of creation Job 38:4-7 See also Ps 148:1-5; Ne 9:6

Angels praise God’s work of redemption Lk 2:13-14 The angels are praising God for Jesus Christ’s birth. See also Isa 44:23; 49:13; Lk 15:10; Heb 1:6; Dt 32:43 fn

Angels praise God’s kingdom Ps 103:19-21 See also Ps 96:10-11 pp 1Ch 16:30-31; Ps 145:10-11; Rev 11:15

Angelic beings praise God Isa 6:2-4 See also Rev 4:8; 5:8-10; 7:11-12

Thousands of angels worship God Heb 12:22 See also Dt 33:2; Ps 68:17; Da 7:10; Rev 5:11-12

IOW, angels do nothing but worship God. God do not ask angels for advice like the one in Isaiah 6:8 “who will go for Us? –Isaiah 6:8”.

 

[sojourner]

Are you going to try to aver that a baby has beliefs due to the historical record?

No, I'm trying to say that your beliefs don't trump what is historically available.

 

[cataway]

NO evidence in the scripture that there was a pre-human before Genesis 1:26. If you can produce a verse in the bible that will literally say that there was a pre-human that God created before the beginning or just before Genesis 1:26 then I will CEASE ARGUING with you guys/jw.

good grief, how many scriptures do I have to post that does show the word was there in heaven ?

 

[JayJayDee]

Great post, thanks.

A few things i'll comment on. I"ll start with, Let us.... That is not Christ, that is God and the angels.

Can you cite scripture that actually states that God was speaking to angels as agents of his creation?
We have given you scripture that specifically states that the son of God (singular) was used as the agent of creation.
So I am confused about this.

John 1, Jesus is not the "whole" "word".

The "word" in John is logos. Logos IS God's word. It is His plans, thoughts and reasons. It is not talking about "just Jesus". It is everything. In the beginning, God spoke.......

All creation was made through his son.... what does that really mean. Does that mean that Jesus was there "with" the Father at creation? No. It is saying that Jesus was there in God's plans, His mind. His son was the focal point. But it doesnt mean that he was there.

I believe that you are mistaken here....."logos" can mean all that God says, including aspects of his purpose, but it means more than just God's plans.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures “the Word” (Gr., hoLo′gos) also appears as a title. (John 1:1, 14; Rev 19:13) The apostle John identified the one to whom this title belongs, namely, Jesus, he being designated by this title, not only during his ministry on earth as a perfect man, but also during his prehuman spirit existence as well as after his exaltation to heaven. That makes Jesus God's spokesman which is what he came to earth to do....to represent his Father, speaking his words and promoting his ways. He never promoted himself as God.
His death proves that he was in every way mortal. Angels are a completely different creation to man, who rely on certain conditions on earth to continue living. Angels live as spirit beings who do not need external things to continue to exist. This doesn't mean that they are immortal however. As Kolibri has already mentioned, immortality means "the power of an indestructible life".....an immortal cannot die. Angels who defected to satan's side will be put to death. This means that angels are not immortal.

Any being that can lose life is not immortal. A mortal can die....it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to. Only disobedience to the Creator brings death.

This Word, or Lo′gos, was God’s only direct creation, the "only-begotten son" of God, who was evidently the close associate of God, the one to whom God was speaking when he said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Gen 1:26) Hence John continued, saying: “This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2, 3) The "him" here is singular.

The scriptures plainly show that the Word was God’s agent through whom all other things came into existence. There is “one God the Father, out of whom all things are, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are.” (1Co 8:6) The Word, God’s Son, was “the beginning of the creation by God,” otherwise described as “the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.” (Re 3:14; Col 1:15, 16)

How can you dismiss this evidence?

Jesus was sent into the world. Does that mean he started "from' heaven? No, he was sent into the world to preach, to save.

If Jesus was simply sent into the world to preach and to save, why did he have to be born as a human child? Why not just materialize as angels had done before him?

Can you explain the mechanics of the ransom sacrifice of the Christ as you understand it? Why did he have to die like he did? His death and ill treatment was prophesied.

John came from God to and he was sent into the world. Was John in heaven as a starting point? No.

John was a human, born of human parents. He was a herald for the one of whom he was sent to "prepare the way".
He was not called a son of God. In fact, because he died before Jesus, John was not taken into the new covenant, so he had no "heavenly calling". (Heb 3:1) Since Jesus made no attempt to resurrect him, (as he did Lazarus) it is apparent that God has earthly plans for this servant of God, along with all those in pre-Christian times spoken about in Heb ch 11.

The mana came from God to. Did it start in heaven and float down to earth? No, it was there in the morning.

The spiritual application of the manna as it pertained to Jesus is clear in the scriptures.
It came from heaven and sustained the lives of the Israelites in the wilderness.

" 30 Therefore they said to him: “What, then, are you performing as a sign, in order for us to see [it] and believe you? What work are you doing? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Hence Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but my Father does give you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Therefore they said to him: “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. " (John 6:30-35)

I have not seen anyone who denied Jesus' pre-human existence before. The scriptures plainly state it.

Jesus did come from God, God knew him before he was born, same with us.

How can all things be brought into existence through him (singular) if he did not yet exist?

Where do you get the idea that God knew us as individuals before we were born?

God does not foreordain us or our lives as individuals just because he has done so with a few special individuals that were incremental in the outworking of his purpose.

That would mean that rape is part of God's plan, being the means to bring an individual life into being. How can that possibly be?

Are you advocating the beliefs of a certain religious body who shares your views or are these beliefs your own understanding of scripture from your own private research?

 

[JayJayDee]

From these verses you will see the Triune God or the Trinity.

JN 14:16 “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another/ALLOS Helper, that He may be with you forever;
JN 14:17 that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

JN 14:26 “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.

JN 15:26 “When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,

Notice the word “another/allos” in 14:16. The meaning of “another/allos” is the same in nature or one like the Lord Jesus Christ, or “allos, another like Himself, and not heteros –W.E. Vine”.

IOW, here we read the “Helper/Parakleton”, i.e., the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, and the Lord Jesus Christ are one like “I and the Father are one –John 10:30”.

The other meaning of “another/other” is “heteros/different” Example: “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me –Exodus 20:3”

Now, if the Lord Jesus Christ and the Father are one [John 10:30], and the Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ are one [John 14:16], and the Holy Spirit and God/Father are one [Acts 5:3-4 “you have lied to the Holy Spirit –v3” and “You have not lied to men but to God –v4”] then there is only ONE conclusion to this, and that is, The One/Echad/Unified LORD is our God/Elohim, and God/Elohim being plural shows that God, i.e., [God/Father, God/Son, God/Holy Spirit described in John 10:30, John 14:16, and Acts 5:3-4] are all ONE/Echad/Unified LORD, that is more than one, yet is "ONE/ECHAD-SH259 United Jehovah/LORD". Hence, we have the Trinity.

It is fairly obvious that you are stuck in your trinitarian trained mind. You are welcome to it. It is your choice to keep supporting it.

The holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek, pa·ra′kle·tos; “Comforter,” KJ; “Advocate,” JB,NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; 16:13) But other texts say that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41; Matt. 3:11; Acts 10:38)
Moses was told to choose 70 qualified men to help him in carrying the load of leading Israel in the wilderness. God took some of the spirit that was on Moses and shared it among the 70. These references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holyspirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. The situation with Moses does not fit a person either.

Now, your interpretation/alteration of John 1:1 to an “a god” from “God” means you actually acknowledging that there are more than one god before the beginning and if you preach the Jesus that you know as an “a god” instead of “God” then you are literally preaching polytheism and that makes you a pagan.

IOW, you have “another/different/heteros/ gods before God and that is a clear violation of Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other/heteros/different gods before me –Exodus 20:3”

Good grief!
Can you for once come to terms with the word "theos"? It is a title that is NOT exclusive to the Father.
Because it simply means "a mighty one". Who can deny that God himself is a "mighty one"......Jesus and others in the Bible can rightly be referred to as "mighty ones". Human judges in positions of power in Israel were called "gods".
But the one referred to as the "Almighty" is the Father alone. Do you understand this? Jesus is NEVER called Almighty.

If you keep ignoring this fact, you cannot continue to argue from a false premise. There is no polytheism. The "only true God" (John 17:3) is identified in John 1:1 by the definite article. (THE) Only one referred to as a mighty one in that verse is "THE God" and it isn't "the Word" (ho Logos).
The differentiation is clear....except to those who refuse to see it.

 

[Kolibri]

Now, your interpretation/alteration of John 1:1 to an “a god” from “God” means you actually acknowledging that there are more than one god before the beginning and if you preach the Jesus that you know as an “a god” instead of “God” then you are literally preaching polytheism and that makes you a pagan.

Jehovah's Witnesses only worship one God. We acknowledge as do the scriptures that there are others that are more powerful than us, "gods". But we restrict our worship to Jesus' own God, Jehovah. Acknowledging others as mighty, or as "a god", does not make us worshipers of more than one God.

 

[moorea944]

Can you cite scripture that actually states that God was speaking to angels as agents of his creation?
We have given you scripture that specifically states that the son of God (singular) was used as the agent of creation.
So I am confused about this.



I believe that you are mistaken here....."logos" can mean all that God says, including aspects of his purpose, but it means more than just God's plans.

In the Christian Greek Scriptures “the Word” (Gr., hoLo′gos) also appears as a title. (John 1:1, 14; Rev 19:13) The apostle John identified the one to whom this title belongs, namely, Jesus, he being designated by this title, not only during his ministry on earth as a perfect man, but also during his prehuman spirit existence as well as after his exaltation to heaven. That makes Jesus God's spokesman which is what he came to earth to do....to represent his Father, speaking his words and promoting his ways. He never promoted himself as God.
His death proves that he was in every way mortal. Angels are a completely different creation to man, who rely on certain conditions on earth to continue living. Angels live as spirit beings who do not need external things to continue to exist. This doesn't mean that they are immortal however. As Kolibri has already mentioned, immortality means "the power of an indestructible life".....an immortal cannot die. Angels who defected to satan's side will be put to death. This means that angels are not immortal.

Any being that can lose life is not immortal. A mortal can die....it doesn't necessarily mean that they have to. Only disobedience to the Creator brings death.

This Word, or Lo′gos, was God’s only direct creation, the "only-begotten son" of God, who was evidently the close associate of God, the one to whom God was speaking when he said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness.” (Gen 1:26) Hence John continued, saying: “This one was in the beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” (John 1:2, 3) The "him" here is singular.

The scriptures plainly show that the Word was God’s agent through whom all other things came into existence. There is “one God the Father, out of whom all things are, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are.” (1Co 8:6) The Word, God’s Son, was “the beginning of the creation by God,” otherwise described as “the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth.” (Re 3:14; Col 1:15, 16)

How can you dismiss this evidence?



If Jesus was simply sent into the world to preach and to save, why did he have to be born as a human child? Why not just materialize as angels had done before him?

Can you explain the mechanics of the ransom sacrifice of the Christ as you understand it? Why did he have to die like he did? His death and ill treatment was prophesied.



John was a human, born of human parents. He was a herald for the one of whom he was sent to "prepare the way".
He was not called a son of God. In fact, because he died before Jesus, John was not taken into the new covenant, so he had no "heavenly calling". (Heb 3:1) Since Jesus made no attempt to resurrect him, (as he did Lazarus) it is apparent that God has earthly plans for this servant of God, along with all those in pre-Christian times spoken about in Heb ch 11.


The spiritual application of the manna as it pertained to Jesus is clear in the scriptures.
It came from heaven and sustained the lives of the Israelites in the wilderness.

" 30 Therefore they said to him: “What, then, are you performing as a sign, in order for us to see [it] and believe you? What work are you doing? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Hence Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but my Father does give you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Therefore they said to him: “Lord, always give us this bread.”

35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. " (John 6:30-35)

I have not seen anyone who denied Jesus' pre-human existence before. The scriptures plainly state it.



How can all things be brought into existence through him (singular) if he did not yet exist?

Where do you get the idea that God knew us as individuals before we were born?

God does not foreordain us or our lives as individuals just because he has done so with a few special individuals that were incremental in the outworking of his purpose.

That would mean that rape is part of God's plan, being the means to bring an individual life into being. How can that possibly be?

Are you advocating the beliefs of a certain religious body who shares your views or are these beliefs your own understanding of scripture from your own private research?

[QUTOE] Can you cite scripture that actually states that God was speaking to angels as agents of his creation?
We have given you scripture that specifically states that the son of God (singular) was used as the agent of creation.
So I am confused about this.[/QUOTE]

Well the scripture you have given me doesnt say that Christ was at creation in the beginning of our time. Your putting him there. I'll just give you one verse of many that state that the Elohim, in most cases are the angels.

Psalms 8v5 "For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels". In Hebrew it is "lower than the Elohim"

It was the angels that were at creation. They are God's fingers, they do His work on earth. They are also here for us, they work with us. Though we cant see them, they also help us out too.

I believe that you are mistaken here....."logos" can mean all that God says, including aspects of his purpose, but it means more than just God's plans.

The Word, God’s Son, was "the beginning of the creation by God," otherwise described as "the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and upon the earth."

I know that, that's what I said. Most people think it's just talking about Jesus. I was saying it's more than that....

And Jesus IS called the Word of God. But in other verses it's talking about the Word of God as in God's words, plans, reasons, thoughts. Jesus is the firstborn of creation. But which one? Paul says it right. It is the first born of the second creation. Not Adam's.

If Jesus was simply sent into the world to preach and to save, why did he have to be born as a human child? Why not just materialize as angels had done before him?

Can you explain the mechanics of the ransom sacrifice of the Christ as you understand it? Why did he have to die like he did? His death and ill treatment was prophesied.

I can explain this very easily. Jesus had to be like us. Scripture even tells us that. Heb 2 tells us that he was just like us. Our nature. It had to be someone who could overcome sin or sin in the flesh. He had to be born through a woman to inherit man's sinful nature. Jesus was tempted but overcame that, because God was working through His son. How many verses does it tell us that God was working through His son? Alot.

Jesus had to be the son of God and the son of man. It had to be someone like us. And that would be a perfect sacrifice.

I have not seen anyone who denied Jesus' pre-human existence before. The scriptures plainly state it.

Actually it doesnt. Your just putting him there. No scripture tells us that he pre-existed. Look at Hebrews 1 on how it starts out. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son," If Jesus pre-existed, this would be written completely different.

Look at Col 1. Jesus is the image of God. God is also the father and God of Jesus. He is the firstborn.

How can all things be brought into existence through him (singular) if he did not yet exist?[/QUOTED]

Jesus was not here at creation, but only in God's mind and plans. Jesus did not create anything.

Where do you get the idea that God knew us as individuals before we were born?

Becuase the bible tells us that. Look at Jer 1v5. Look at Eph 1. God knew us before we were born. He knows the beginning from the end. He can see that.

That would mean that rape is part of God's plan, being the means to bring an individual life into being. How can that possibly be?

Rape is not part of God's plan. Why would you even say that? That is man's work. He knows who he is going to call.

Are you advocating the beliefs of a certain religious body who shares your views or are these beliefs your own understanding of scripture from your own private research?

Shouldnt I be saying that to you?..... All of my beliefs are in scripture. I dont bring my beliefs into it.

 

[JayJayDee]

Well the scripture you have given me doesnt say that Christ was at creation in the beginning of our time. Your putting him there.

What is "the beginning" mentioned in John 1:1? Since the Almighty is eternal and had no beginning, then "the beginning" of John 1:1 is the beginning of creation.

Colossians 1:15-17...."He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together."

How can Jesus be the "firstborn" of all creation if creation existed before he did? "He is before all things"....how can he be "before all things" if he wasn't' there until his human birth? "ALL things were created through him".......how can that be if he did not exist except as a plan?
You seem to be stretching scripture beyond what it actually says.

I'll just give you one verse of many that state that the Elohim, in most cases are the angels.

Psalms 8v5 "For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels". In Hebrew it is "lower than the Elohim"

Yes, this is confirmed by Paul’s quotation of the passage at Hebrews 2:6-8. They are called beneh′ha·ʼElo·him′, “sons of God” (KJ); “sons of the true God” (NW), at Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1.
At Psalm 8:5 ʼelo·him′ is rendered “angels” (LXX); “godlike ones” (NW).

The word ʼelo·him′ is also used when referring to idol gods. Sometimes this plural form means simply “gods.” (Ex 12:12; 20:23) At other times it is the plural of excellence and only one god (or goddess) is referred to. However, these gods were clearly not trinities.—1Sa 5:7b (Dagon) ; 1Ki 11:5 (“goddess” Ashtoreth); Da 1:2b (Marduk).

At Psalm 82:1, 6, ʼelo·him′ is used of men, human judges in Israel. Jesus quoted from this Psalm at John 10:34, 35. They were gods in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for Jehovah. Similarly Moses was told that he was to serve as “God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1.

So ʼElo·him′ is used in the Scriptures with reference to Jehovah himself, to angels, to idol gods (singular and plural), and to men.

It was the angels that were at creation.

Well, haven't you put them there? Where does it state that the angels were used in creation?

They are God's fingers, they do His work on earth.

They were mostly used as his messengers....that is what the word "angel" means.

They are also here for us, they work with us. Though we cant see them, they also help us out too.

I have no doubt about that. Angels are used in a number of ways, including the preaching work that Jesus assigned to his disciples. (Rev 14:6, 7) They were used as executioners and as saviors, dispatching God's enemies or protecting his servants.

I know that, that's what I said. Most people think it's just talking about Jesus. I was saying it's more than that....

Where in the Bible does it say that?

And Jesus IS called the Word of God. But in other verses it's talking about the Word of God as in God's words, plans, reasons, thoughts. Jesus is the firstborn of creation. But which one? Paul says it right. It is the first born of the second creation. Not Adam's.

You will have to explain what you mean by "second creation. Not Adam's". What second creation are you talking about?

If Jesus was simply sent into the world to preach and to save, why did he have to be born as a human child? Why not just materialize as angels had done before him?

I can explain this very easily. Jesus had to be like us. Scripture even tells us that. Heb 2 tells us that he was just like us. Our nature. It had to be someone who could overcome sin or sin in the flesh. He had to be born through a woman to inherit man's sinful nature.

Sinful nature? What sinful nature? Christ was born without sin, which is the whole basis for the ransom. He is called "the last Adam" because he paid an equivalent "price" to buy back (redeem) the human race. The perfect life lost by Adam was paid for by an equally perfect life. He inherited nothing from either parent. His conception was by means of holy spirit, so that what was produced had no defect, like Adam. He proved by his conduct that Adam could have remained faithful to God despite temptation. Adam did not have a sinful nature until he sinned and lost his perfection.

Jesus could have exercised his free will selfishly and lost his perfection too, but he chose not to.

Jesus was tempted but overcame that, because God was working through His son. How many verses does it tell us that God was working through His son? Alot.

God's whole purpose depended on the faithful course of his most trusted son.

Jesus had to be the son of God and the son of man. It had to be someone like us. And that would be a perfect sacrifice.

I am confused as to why him having a pre-human existence interferes with that role. He was God's faithful son who volunteer to be born as a human child and to offer his life for mankind. His lineage was part of his credentials. Having a human mother was necessary for him to fulfill prophesy about his birth. He had to be the equivalent of Adam to pay the ransom. He was in every way. If Mary's DNA contributed to Jesus' birth, he would have inherited the stain of sin. Jesus had to be sinless. His mother was an instrument used to give birth to God's son. She was also privileged to raise him.

No scripture tells us that he pre-existed. Look at Hebrews 1 on how it starts out. "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son," If Jesus pre-existed, this would be written completely different.

Why? Again, I am confused by your reasoning. Having used his prophets in ancient times to instruct and correct his people, when the time came for Messiah to make his appearance, God then used his son as a prophet and instructor. But true to form, the Jews got rid of him instead of taking his counsel to heart. (Matt 21:33-46)

Jesus' apostles were the last of the prophets to write scripture. All we need to know is in God's word, preserved for us down through the centuries so that the teachings of his Christ would instruct us down to the last days of the present system of things.

 

[JM2C]

Jehovah's Witnesses only worship one God. We acknowledge as do the scriptures that there are others that are more powerful than us, "gods". But we restrict our worship to Jesus' own God, Jehovah. Acknowledging others as mighty, or as "a god", does not make us worshipers of more than one God.

Yes you do worship other gods by creating them as gods. We Trinitarians worship only One LORD. You know the one in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;

Phil 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Phil 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.

Where did you think Paul got this Romans 14:11 from?

Isa 45:23 By myself have I sworn, the word is gone forth from my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Bowing to the Lord Jesus Christ and to the God/Father according to Paul is the same because they are one. The LORD our/Trinitarians’ God/Elohim is one/echad/unified LORD. This is how we see God as one/echad/unified LORD.

 

[JM2C]

good grief, how many scriptures do I have to post that does show the word was there in heaven ?

What are you saying?

 

[JM2C]

It is fairly obvious that you are stuck in your trinitarian trained mind. You are welcome to it. It is your choice to keep supporting it. The holy spirit is referred to as a helper (Greek,pa·ra′kle·tos;“Comforter,”KJ;“Advocate,”JB,NE) that ‘teaches,’ ‘bears witness,’ ‘speaks’ and ‘hears.’ (John 14:16, 17,26;15:26;16:13) But other texts say that people were “filled” with holy spirit, that some were ‘baptized’ with it or “anointed” with it. (Luke 1:41;Matt. 3:11;Acts 10:38)

Moses was told to choose 70 qualified men to help him in carrying the load of leading Israel in the wilderness. God took some of the spirit that was on Moses and shared it among the 70.

These references to holy spirit definitely do not fit a person. To understand what the Bible as a whole teaches, all these texts must be considered. What is the reasonable conclusion? That the first texts cited here employ a figure of speech personifying God’s holyspirit, his active force, as the Bible also personifies wisdom, sin, death, water, and blood. The situation with Moses does not fit a person either.

That’s what I’ve been doing supporting my arguments with the Scriptures. The word “another/allos” if you can understand this, the meaning is “the same” or as W.E. Vine interpreted it as “allos, another like Himself/the Lord Jesus Christ, and not heteros/different”

IOW, here we read the “Helper/Parakleton”, i.e., the Holy Spirit in John 14:26, and the Lord Jesus Christ are one just like “I and the Father are one –John 10:30”.


Your interpretation of the Holy Spirit as “active force” is nowhere to be found in the bible.

 

[JM2C]

Good grief!

Can you for once come to terms with the word "theos"? It is a title that is NOT exclusive to the Father.

Because it simply means "a mighty one". Who can deny that God himself is a "mighty one"......Jesus and others in the Bible can rightly be referred to as "mighty ones". Human judges in positions of power in Israel were called "gods".

Human judges were not in existence before the beginning. Do you understand this?

How many times I have to tell you this?

In the first clause the word “was” or “en” in Greek is in the past tense. In Bible hub interlinear the word “en/was” is in the imperfect tense. What is imperfect tense?

The imperfect expresses imperfective aspect and is normally found in statements about the past. The primary function of the imperfect tense is to convey imperfective (progressive) verbal aspect in narrative past-time contexts.

In the beginning was the Word. IOW, before the beginning in Genesis 1:1 the Word was in existence already with God [pros ton theon –clause 2] continuously as the imperfect tense “was/en” was suggesting.

Before the beginning there was NO HUMAN JUDGES THAT WERE CALLED gods. Do you understand this? Nothing existed before the beginning but God and the Word and John said, “And the Word was God” MEANING SINCE NOTHING IN EXISTENCE BEFORE THE BEGINNING BUT GOD/FATHER AND THE WORD THEN THERE CANNOT BE an a god from the group of gods.

IOW, before the beginning there was no creation. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS?

Now, if there was no creation before the beginning then there was nothing but God and the Word as John explained it.

WHY CAN’T YOU/JW PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS? THIS IS SIMPLE LOGIC

 

[JM2C]

But the one referred to as the "Almighty" is the Father alone. Do you understand this? Jesus is NEVER called Almighty.

”And the Word was with God” here we read two personal beings before the beginning. TRY TO UNDERSTAND THIS NOW. Before the beginning there was nothing but God and the Word or “And the Word was with God”. What is so hard to understand here?

God/Father is the Almighty One does not make the Word not God.

 

[JM2C]

If you keep ignoring this fact, you cannot continue to argue from a false premise. There is no polytheism.

You/jw people created an "a god" that God/Father did not create before the beginning and that makes you/jw pagans.

 

[JM2C]

The "only true God" (John 17:3) is identified in John 1:1 by the definite article. (THE) Only one referred to as a mighty one in that verse is "THE God" and it isn't "the Word" (ho Logos).

The differentiation is clear....except to those who refuse to see it.

The only true God is the Father and the only true begotten God is the Word. Both in Scriptures.

 

[Kolibri]

You/jw people created an "a god" that God/Father did not create before the beginning and that makes you/jw pagans.

Does that mean acknowledging Moses as a God to Pharoah makes us pagans? (Ex 7:1)
Moses was put in a position of mightiness in relation to Pharoah, he was Jehovah's agent. He was not some false god made out of wood and stone. He was a real living person. He was in all intensive purposes "a god"
Have you ever been subject to a human judge's ruling? For the purpose of that ruling that judge was "a god" to you. (Ps 82:6; John 10:34) That does not mean you worshiped the judge. But he was more mighty than you.

God did not create Jesus before the beginning. Jesus was the beginning. That is, as the very first creation, creation started with his being formed. Before the beginning there was only Jehovah.

Romans 14 can understandably be messy with all the "Lord" being used in most translations. You are correct in that Romans 14:11 quotes Isa 45:23. And in the Isaiah verse the divine name is clearly evident, and thus very transferable to verse 11. Over the centuries, Hebrew Translations of this chapter have restored the divine name to vs 4,6, and 8 as well.

As much as you may find it frustrating and sad that we do not recognize Jesus as God, we too find it sometimes frustrating and sad that Trinitarians worship the messenger as if he were the message sender. (Col 2:18)

 

[JayJayDee]

Yes you do worship other gods by creating them as gods. We Trinitarians worship only One LORD. You know the one in Deuteronomy 6:4.

Your "one god" is a three headed freak who is not even mentioned by the Jews in all their history. If you did not read the trinity into verses in the scriptures, you would never find it. There is no direct statement...not one.

This threesome is not the God of Jesus Christ....unless of course he worships part of himself.

Phil 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;

How can God give part of himself a name above all others? He already has a name that it above all others....One that never changes. (Ex 3:15)

Phil 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth

As the appointed king of God's kingdom, that is a no brainer......of course we would bow to our king. Those in heaven, those on earth and those resurrected from their graves.....everyone will acknowledge God's reigning king.

Phil 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We have already addressed this passage many times. Whose "glory" is spoken about here....Jesus' or his Father's?
What is the meaning of the title "LORD".....? It doesn't mean "God".

You don't see what you don't want to.

Read it again without the trinitarian glasses.....

Ro 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, to me every knee shall bow, And every tongue shall confess to God.

Where did you think Paul got this Romans 14:11 from?

If you read that verse in context Paul tells you exactly what it means.

Romans 14:10-12....."But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God. For it is written,“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God.” So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God." (NASB)

This is God, not Jesus. Do you see where Paul says "it is written"? He was quoting Isa 45:23 as you have said.

Now look at Isa 49:18, which says......“Lift up your eyes and look around; All of them gather together, they come to you. As I live,” declares the Lord,“You will surely put on all of them as jewels and bind them on as a bride."

"The LORD" in these verse is Jehovah. The Tetragrammaton is in the original text. Jesus is not Jehovah.

Hebrews 6:13...."For when God made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself"

"As I live" is a declaration by Jehovah....because he can't swear an oath by any name higher than his own.

You are free to uphold your trinitarian god. Who am I to take him from you?

Embrace him, but don't say you were not warned about putting another god in place of Jehovah "the only true God". (John 17:3; Ex 20:3)

I am done with this brick wall.

 

[JM2C]

What is your point?

Division is division. Who created the division?.....men. What are "factions"? Sects centred around following men. If they were united in belief then what was the point of following one person as opposed to another as leader?

"The Greek word (hai′re·sis,from which comes the English word “heresy”) thus translated means “choice” (Lev 22:18,LXX) or “that which is chosen,” hence “a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets [asectorparty].”

(Thayer’sGreek-EnglishLexiconoftheNewTestament,1889, p. 16) This term is applied to the adherents of the two prominent branches of Judaism, the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Acts 5:17;15:5;26:5) Non-Christians also called Christianity a “sect” or “the sect of the Nazarenes,” possibly viewing it as a break-off from Judaism.—Acts 24:5,14;28:22.

Jesus Christ, prayed that unity might prevail among his followers (John 17:21), and the apostles were vitally interested in preserving the oneness of the Christian congregation. (1Cor 1:10;Jude 17-19)

Disunity in belief could give rise to fierce disputing, dissension, and even enmity. (CompareActs 23:7-10.)

So sects were to be avoided, being among the works of the flesh. (Gal 5:19-21) Christians were warned against becoming promoters of sects or being led astray by false teachers. (Acts 20:28;2 Tim 2:17, 18;2 Pet 2:1) In his letter to Titus, the apostle Paul directed that, after being admonished twice, a man who continued promoting a sect be rejected, evidently meaning that he be expelled from the congregation. (Titus 3:10) Those who refused to become involved in creating divisions within the congregation or in supporting a particular faction would distinguish themselves by their faithful course and give evidence of having God’s approval. " (Insight Volumes "Sects" WTBTS)


There was to be no division on any basis. Paul made that clear, so where does that leave Christendom? Epic fail!

”Factions” is “eritheias” denotes ambition, self-seeking. There were divisions caused by ambition, self-seeking, and rivalry in Corinth. From factions that causes divisions among the early Christians in Corinth to the formation of sects. IOW, from Christianity some came out and form their own doctrines like you/jw guys.

 

[JM2C]

We had better know this too or else how would we obey God's command to "get out of Babylon the great" before God brings her to her end? (Rev 18:4, 5) In the harvest time, angels are instructed to gather the "weeds" of false Christianity first and pitch them into the oven for destruction. Then he will gather the "wheat" into his storehouse. That time is rapidly approaching. The angels are ready to reap their harvest.

”That time is rapidly approaching” NO DATES? So, you have learned from the previous prophecies you/jw guys made with the exact dates on them. Is this another one of your prophecies again? Remember all the failed prophecy you/jw guys made about the end of the world.