Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Nada]

Deflecting as usual. I stated it didn't matter whether Peter was a pope or a bishop when he appointed his successor to head the church in Antioch. He would appoint a person who would be appropriately trained and who would hold the correct beliefs. And the belief was Jesus was God. You do no different when you appoint your leaders. Would you appoint a Trinitarian to the governing body. Of course not.

BTW, if we reason from the scriptures, and translate Greek and Latin, we can see that father appears many times in the scriptures.

The Pope (Latin: papa; from Greek: πάππας pappas,[1] a child's word for father)[2

And what I am trying to explain to you is that Peter was nobody to have a successor.He was a disciple of Jesus, who was an older man than the others,and did God's bidding.All were disciples of Jesus and nothing more.Popes and bishops are things that belong to Christendom,not God's organization,true Christianity.There are not supposed to be men dressed up in fancy garments, dripping with gold and holding a scepter like a king.Jesus did not carry on in this manner.This is tradition based on the beliefs of men with their own agenda.Jesus was humble.The men that carry on as I speak of are not humble.

 

[Wharton]

And what I am trying to explain to you is that Peter was nobody to have a successor.He was a disciple of Jesus, who was an older man than the others,and did God's bidding.All were disciples of Jesus and nothing more.Popes and bishops are things that belong to Christendom,not God's organization,true Christianity.There are not supposed to be men dressed up in fancy garments, dripping with gold and holding a scepter like a king.Jesus did not carry on in this manner.This is tradition based on the beliefs of men with their own agenda.Jesus was humble.The men that carry on as I speak of are not humble.

Do you read what you post? Peter was nobody to have a successor? So how did we get from the apostles to the JW's if there were no successors? No successors, no bible, no Christianity.

And Jesus didn't dress like a JW either so where are you going with that line?

And you personally know that these men are not humble? Does the faithful and discreet slave feed you this misinformation?

BTW, your new headquarters are bigger than Vatican City.

 

[cataway]

Do you read what you post? Peter was nobody to have a successor? So how did we get from the apostles to the JW's if there were no successors? No successors, no bible, no Christianity.

And Jesus didn't dress like a JW either so where are you going with that line?

And you personally know that these men are not humble? Does the faithful and discreet slave feed you this misinformation?

BTW, your new headquarters are bigger than Vatican City.

if it will make you feel better i'll say it to .Peter was nobody to have a successor.

 

[Wharton]

if it will make you feel better i'll say it to .Peter was nobody to have a successor.

And neither did Jesus then. He should have went solo and banged on doors preaching the word of God and let the message die out after he was crucified. But the fact remains that Jesus did make provisions for successors. They're the Apostles.

So I take it that your teaching system is better than the one used and approved of by Jesus? You just pop out of nowhere and claim to be the true Christianity based on nothing tangible. You make no sense as even your governing body requires successors to keep your light shining brighter.

So the governing body can have successors until the end of the world but the Apostles can't. What a hoot.

 

[JayJayDee]

Do you read what you post? Peter was nobody to have a successor? So how did we get from the apostles to the JW's if there were no successors? No successors, no bible, no Christianity.

I believe that there is something faulty about your reasoning there Wharton.

In his parable about the 'wheat and the weeds' Jesus said nothing about successors. As has been pointed out to you, there were no positions in the congregations to which anyone needed to succeed. Jesus was the head and needed no successors. Once the 12 Apostles died, Christianity was to be overtaken by the weeds. Jesus and his apostles foretold it.

The wheat were still in existence, but almost swallowed up as God allowed his people to again become captive to a greater "Babylon", just as the ancient Jews had been previously in Daniel's day.....the only difference being that the city was literal in the time of ancient Israel but it is a spiritually adulterous city in the time of the end. (Rev 18:4, 5)

And Jesus didn't dress like a JW either so where are you going with that line?

You're funny.

The distinctive garb was typical of the Pharisees, not the disciples of Jesus. They liked to be identified by their clothing and to receive honor from men. (Matt 23:5)

The clergy of Christendom like to wear ornate vestments and strange pointed fish shaped hats that smack of ancient false worship. The mitre hats are the same as the ancient priests of Dagon the fish God.

You only have to view the ridiculously sumptuous pomp and ceremony of church occasions to see how far removed they are from the humble teachings of the Master.

And you personally know that these men are not humble? Does the faithful and discreet slave feed you this misinformation?

Humility does not allow one to perpetuate false worship. The leaders of the churches of Christendom are well aware of the origins of their beliefs and practices, but like the Pharisees, they will not be corrected.

It's all in the Bible if you look carefully enough. None so blind apparently.

BTW, your new headquarters are bigger than Vatican City.

In Australia we have cattle stations bigger than the Vatican...but our HQ in Warwick isn't a country, separate from the rest of the world, with its own laws, guards, post office and mint. It doesn't have its own bank, nor do its occupants get carried around in bullet proof vehicles and cost the government of various countries millions of dollars for security for every visit outside of that country. Seriously.

Where will I find a Pope in the Bible living in an ornate palace with servants? Did Jesus do this?

 

[Kolibri]

No. You just proved my point.

Jesus doesn't have to grasp or possess what he already has.

Thanks.

We read the same words but our reading comprehension pulls out something different.
Perhaps our reading of Philippians 2:6 can be likened to seeing that picture of a vase outlined by 2 faces. You see the 2 faces, I see the vase. We get so used to seeing it one way, we fail to see that it can read the other.

 

[sanraal]

The Trinity discussion has been going on for 2000 years and it's still challenging : ) I would love to give my opinion: Jesus was the 'Word', the Son of God, both God and man in human form. He was both equal to the Father, but also not equal to the Father. A mystery... that is why he said for his human side that the Son cannot do anything on His own and no one is good, except God alone. But written also is that in the beginning was the Word and the Word become flesh (John 1).

However, people don't have to see this explanation in a narrow or restrictive way,

For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:27-29)

- First of all many Christians say that because Christ was the Word and he holds all things together (John 1:1/ Colossians 1:17), He is the God that created heaven and earth. But if he was only God, he would not have to return his power to the Father so he will become lower than God. If the trinity was completely equal, why would this needs to happen...?


Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (2 Corinthians 5:16)

- No one should know 'Christ' only in the physical form. For example, he was the man in white robes named 'Jesus of Nazareth' with a beard. That is only earthly.


The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John 1:9)

- It was not about the 'physical Jesus', but about the Light. The Light that was - already shining - to all the people was now coming into the world.


But if I'm doing those things and you refuse to believe me, then at least believe the works that I'm doing. Then you will know and recognize that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father." (John 10:38)

- If you don't believe in Jesus, at least believe in his works. After all, in this way you can see he is someone who does good things from God. You don't literally have to believe in Jesus.


If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.… (John 12:48-49)

- If you do not keep his exact Words, no problem. But if you don't receive (let his message of brotherly love, his Word of peace, come into your heart), you do have a judge. Jesus says that hearing is not the same as understanding. You can hear so many teachings, but to feel true love in your heart, that is the true Way.


In my own conclusion, Jesus is the Word, so theologically you can say yes he was God and Human. He shows the eternal Word, so God himself. By whatever he does and says. He is the (full) embodiment of the Word, not a stone tablet, but a living Spirit. It could be that God sent him down as an Avatar. But he himself, his physical body, 'he literally' is not God. To think so would be making an idol. We have to recognize the word of love and peace, 'not literally the one way Jesus'. It's more about the Spirit of the Message. So you don't literally have to believe in Jesus or be a Christian to be saved. It's about the heart and connection with the Eternal Source or Light Jesus showed. Jesus shows this and we too should for example start showing mercy and kindness to others when other people need it. Then we act in the Spirit of Mercy and in this way the 'Trinity' works in us. If we really are, we are equal to Jesus and are 'gods' too (Psalm 82:6).

The same Word of love and peace you can find in any other religion or positive thing, or nature. It has been hidden from the foundations of the world.

 

[katiemygirl]

Actually, I was wondering it YOU got that. Look at what it says... "He was given..... " God gave Jesus everything. Plus, that that trinitarians dont understand is, God manifestation. People did not worship him "as" God. If you worship someone, it doesnt make them God. People worship singers, actors, Presidents, etc, etc. Does that make them God? No of course not. But that fits into your beliefs. And his kingdom will never pass away. Absolutely! When Jesus comes back to earth and sets up the Kingdom, his Kingdom WILL last forever. No one, worshipped Jesus as God. No one.

Who gave the Son of man a kingdom? The Ancient of Days did. Verse 14 tells you why the Ancient of Days gave the Son of man dominion, glory and a kingdom. So they could serve or worship Him, depending upon translation you're using. Serve = latreuo, which is worship.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

The Son of man was no singer, actor or President. He was the Son of God who healed the sick, raised the dead, calmed tbe sea and walked on water. He was not just a man. He was and is God, and He is worthy of worship.

 

[katiemygirl]

Oh,it's not an opinion or unsupported.It is fact.Peter was an apostle and nothing more.There were no popes appointed by Jesus,just followers of Jesus.There is no authority but God.The word pope never even appears in the holy scriptures.

On this point, we agree!

 

[cataway]

Who gave the Son of man a kingdom? The Ancient of Days did

who would Jesus give credit to ?

 

[katiemygirl]

Always fun reading a Bible with the brakes on, trying to remember what part is a bad translation and what part matches the original thought. Let look a few few other translations.

6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, - American Standard Version
6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. - Complete Jewish Bible
6 Who, while being in the form of God, did not regard the being equal with God a thing-to-be-grasped, - Disciples' Literal New Testament
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, - English Standard Version
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, - English Standard Version Anglicized
6 who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped, - Lexham English Bible
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. - Modern English Version

Need I go on?

What do you think "did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" means exactly?

And what does "existing in the form of God" mean exactly?

 

[katiemygirl]

who would Jesus give credit to ?

The Son of man in this passage is worshiped.

There is nothing mentioned about giving credit in the passage, in the chapter or the context that I can see. However, Jesus always gave the glory to His Father for everything. He was a servant and He is our example. We are His servants.

 

[katiemygirl]

The Trinity discussion has been going on for 2000 years and it's still challenging : ) I would love to give my opinion: Jesus was the 'Word', the Son of God, both God and man in human form. He was both equal to the Father, but also not equal to the Father. A mystery... that is why he said for his human side that the Son cannot do anything on His own and no one is good, except God alone. But written also is that in the beginning was the Word and the Word become flesh (John 1).

However, people don't have to see this explanation in a narrow or restrictive way,

For God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:27-29)

- First of all many Christians say that because Christ was the Word and he holds all things together (John 1:1/ Colossians 1:17), He is the God that created heaven and earth. But if he was only God, he would not have to return his power to the Father so he will become lower than God. If the trinity was completely equal, why would this needs to happen...?


Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer. (2 Corinthians 5:16)

- No one should know 'Christ' only in the physical form. For example, he was the man in white robes named 'Jesus of Nazareth' with a beard. That is only earthly.


The true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. (John 1:9)

- It was not about the 'physical Jesus', but about the Light. The Light that was - already shining - to all the people was now coming into the world.


But if I'm doing those things and you refuse to believe me, then at least believe the works that I'm doing. Then you will know and recognize that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father." (John 10:38)

- If you don't believe in Jesus, at least believe in his works. After all, in this way you can see he is someone who does good things from God. You don't literally have to believe in Jesus.


If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.… (John 12:48-49)

- If you do not keep his exact Words, no problem. But if you don't receive (let his message of brotherly love, his Word of peace, come into your heart), you do have a judge. Jesus says that hearing is not the same as understanding. You can hear so many teachings, but to feel true love in your heart, that is the true Way.


In my own conclusion, Jesus is the Word, so theologically you can say yes he was God and Human. He shows the eternal Word, so God himself. By whatever he does and says. He is the (full) embodiment of the Word, not a stone tablet, but a living Spirit. It could be that God sent him down as an Avatar. But he himself, his physical body, 'he literally' is not God. To think so would be making an idol. We have to recognize the word of love and peace, 'not literally the one way Jesus'. It's more about the Spirit of the Message. So you don't literally have to believe in Jesus or be a Christian to be saved. It's about the heart and connection with the Eternal Source or Light Jesus showed. Jesus shows this and we too should for example start showing mercy and kindness to others when other people need it. Then we act in the Spirit of Mercy and in this way the 'Trinity' works in us. If we really are, we are equal to Jesus and are 'gods' too (Psalm 82:6).

The same Word of love and peace you can find in any other religion or positive thing, or nature. It has been hidden from the foundations of the world.

Jesus repeatedly, and in many ways , said that in order to be saved, you must believe He is the Son of God.

You contradict Jesus!

 

[katiemygirl]

We read the same words but our reading comprehension pulls out something different.
Perhaps our reading of Philippians 2:6 can be likened to seeing that picture of a vase outlined by 2 faces. You see the 2 faces, I see the vase. We get so used to seeing it one way, we fail to see that it can read the other.

Good point! Maybe we should make an effort to view things from both perspectives.

I agree with Wharton's view. What is yours?

 

[katiemygirl]

Philippians 2:5-6
Keep this mental attitude in YOU that was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men.



Psalm 83:18 That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah,


You alone are the Most High over all the earth


(Isaiah 42:8) “I am Jehovah. That is my name; and to no one else shall I give my own glory, neither my praise to graven images.

How do any of these verses disprove that the fullness of God dwells in Christ? How can the fullness of God dwell in Christ and Christ not be equal to God? If the fulness of God dwells in Jesus, He lacks nothing!

Jesus chose not to use the full power of His divine nature while on earth. That's what Phil. 2:6 is saying. Instead, He chose to be a servant, to be an example for all of us.

 

[Wharton]

Jesus is not the Almighty.

Correct. Jesus is not the Almighty Father.

 

[sanraal]

Jesus repeatedly, and in many ways , said that in order to be saved, you must believe He is the Son of God.

You contradict Jesus!

If you think this and want to convince me of this, you should give counterarguments on the arguments I wrote in the text. If not, fine no problem that is your opinion.

 

[moorea944]

Who gave the Son of man a kingdom? The Ancient of Days did. Verse 14 tells you why the Ancient of Days gave the Son of man dominion, glory and a kingdom. So they could serve or worship Him, depending upon translation you're using. Serve = latreuo, which is worship.

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed.

The Son of man was no singer, actor or President. He was the Son of God who healed the sick, raised the dead, calmed tbe sea and walked on water. He was not just a man. He was and is God, and He is worthy of worship.

God is giving His son a Kingdom. It hasnt come yet, but he will set it up at his return. But it appears that your using "worship" differently than other people. My point is that no one worshipped Jesus as Yahweh.

Verse 13&14 is a future prophecy when he returns. It also goes with Dan 2. The bible says Jesus is the Son of God, you say he's God, hmmm, interesting.....

 

[cataway]

How do any of these verses disprove that the fullness of God dwells in Christ? How can the fullness of God dwell in Christ and Christ not be equal to God? If the fulness of God dwells in Jesus, He lacks nothing!

Jesus chose not to use the full power of His divine nature while on earth. That's what Phil. 2:6 is saying. Instead, He chose to be a servant, to be an example for all of us.

then do what Jesus said to do

Matthew 4:10 ....... ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’

when you find your self giving worship to Jesus refer back to Matthew 4:10b

 

[moorea944]

What is the Godhead? And my point is that people believe in what the bible "does not" say. God the Father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit, is the Godhead of alot of people believing in the trinity. That is not in the bible at all, yet, it is staple in their faith. Why? Why would you want to "make up" something when the bible actually says something else...

1 Cor 11 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." There is your Godhead right there!

But that is wrong to most religions, because it goes against their believes. Shameful, it really is....