Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[JayJayDee]

Truth never changes. Only error needs continual correction.

You are correct, truth never changes and neither does God......so why do you suppose the apostate church that developed after the the death of the apostles, reinvented the one God of Israel? How does this unchangeable God suddenly develop a multiple personality disorder?

Jesus was a Jew and not once did he contradict the shema. (Deut 6:4; Luke 4:8.)

Why did the church adopt the Greek concept of an immortal soul, when the Jews never believed such a thing? (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Why did they go even further and make God into a monster who tortures wicked souls in hellfire for all eternity? (Jer 7:30, 31)

Seriously! You want to talk about changing things? Go back to your own roots and see what happened to Christianity in the early centuries......what the churches present now is a complete corruption of original Christianity. (Matt 7:21-23)

BYW, clarification is not necessarily change. When more light is shed on any subject, you have the choice to stubbornly stick with what is old and comfortable or move on in your understanding....imagine where science and archeology would be today if no one made adjustments with new discovery? We are in a constant state of learning....no one knows it all until God reveals it.

 

[JayJayDee]

Ah, the scholar of earthly and wordly biblical wisdom. I'll take spiritual and I hope you learn to search within one day. You are trying to teach things written by the Spirit of God in physical and earthly ways, your serpent(mind) is very clever, I can only imagine how effective you'd truly be in the true kingdom, spiritually if God taught you properly and truth in spirit... You'd be a true Jehovah witness, and feel the greatest bliss.

LOL, I doubt you could fathom what I feel about my God.

Personal things aside, can I ask you a very simple question....?

If everything is "spiritual", why are we "material"? You seem to place earthly things as something loathsome, when the earth itself is extremely beautiful. An earthly paradise was planted by God for humans to expand and enjoy. Why do you downgrade it?

Why didn't God just place us in the spirit realm where he and his other sons live?
If earth was not a training ground for heaven with the angels, what makes you think it is for us? Where is that written?

What is the purpose of this earth and us humankind upon it? What does it all mean in your estimations?

What is the kingdom of God? How does it "come" so that "God's will" can be done "on earth as it is in heaven"?
Still waiting for this explanation. So when you are ready to provide a succinct answer...I'm all ears.

 

[Unification]

LOL, I doubt you could fathom what I feel about my God.

Personal things aside, can I ask you a very simple question....?

If everything is "spiritual", why are we "material"? You seem to place earthly things as something loathsome, when the earth itself is extremely beautiful. An earthly paradise was planted by God for humans to expand and enjoy. Why do you downgrade it?

Why didn't God just place us in the spirit realm where he and his other sons live?
If earth was not a training ground for heaven with the angels, what makes you think it is for us? Where is that written?

What is the purpose of this earth and us humankind upon it? What does it all mean in your estimations?

What is the kingdom of God? How does it "come" so that "God's will" can be done "on earth as it is in heaven"?
Still waiting for this explanation. So when you are ready to provide a succinct answer...I'm all ears.

Keep wearing your covering. When it's removed, get back to me.

 

[Unification]

You are correct, truth never changes and neither does God......so why do you suppose the apostate church that developed after the the death of the apostles, reinvented the one God of Israel? How does this unchangeable God suddenly develop a multiple personality disorder?

Jesus was a Jew and not once did he contradict the shema. (Deut 6:4; Luke 4:8.)

Why did the church adopt the Greek concept of an immortal soul, when the Jews never believed such a thing? (Eccl 9:5, 10)

Why did they go even further and make God into a monster who tortures wicked souls in hellfire for all eternity? (Jer 7:30, 31)

Seriously! You want to talk about changing things? Go back to your own roots and see what happened to Christianity in the early centuries......what the churches present now is a complete corruption of original Christianity. (Matt 7:21-23)

BYW, clarification is not necessarily change. When more light is shed on any subject, you have the choice to stubbornly stick with what is old and comfortable or move on in your understanding....imagine where science and archeology would be today if no one made adjustments with new discovery? We are in a constant state of learning....no one knows it all until God reveals it.

I thought God changed his mind on incest? I thought you preach the same sick God who destroys children and needs the torture and shredding of animals, for blood, as well as coming to destroy humans and reign with only Jehovah witnesseses for 1000 years, and since a day is 1000 years to the Lord, you wouldn't be reigning very long. Other than that, that was actually a truly nice post.

 

[JayJayDee]

Keep wearing your covering. When it's removed, get back to me.

You keep ignoring my question.....why can't you answer it? Is it too difficult? or too simple?

 

[Unification]

You keep ignoring my question.....why can't you answer it? Is it too difficult? or too simple?

Your questions were already answered. Again, it's impossible to discuss things of God with someone wearing a covering still, remove and get back to me. I'd love to grow together.

 

[JayJayDee]

I thought God changed his mind on incest?

No he did not "change his mind" because there was no law on on incest to change. He introduced his law on incest when the genetics reached a point where it was no longer viable.

I thought you preach the same sick God who destroys children and needs the torture and shredding of animals, for blood, as well as coming to destroy humans and reign with only Jehovah witnesseses for 1000 years, and since a day is 1000 years to the Lord, you wouldn't be reigning very long. Other than that, that was actually a truly nice post.

You have an extremely warped view of God. When you can be respectful in your discussions about him, I will continue the conversation but your attitude is extremely offensive and I will not engage you in any conversation of that nature in future.

 

[Unification]

No he did not "change his mind" because there was no law on on incest to change. He introduced his law on incest when the genetics reached a point where it was no longer viable.



You have an extremely warped view of God. When you can be respectful in your discussions about him, I will continue the conversation but your attitude is extremely offensive and I will not engage you in any conversation of that nature in future.

In the meantime, you should truly consider meditating on the Lord for 40 days and 40 nights so your conditioned mind can be defeated and the covering can be removed. You truly have no idea this is love and in your best interest. Consider that. Take care.

 

[JayJayDee]

In the meantime, you should truly consider meditating on the Lord for 40 days and 40 nights so your conditioned mind can be defeated and the covering can be removed. You truly have no idea this is love and in your best interest. Consider that. Take care.

If this is what you recommend because you cannot furnish answers to even simple questions without walls of incoherent nonsense, then we have nothing more to discuss. I don't know who you "think" you are, but you are not any teacher that I would ever listen to. You downgrade everything I hold to be true. And you cannot back up a single thing you say with the word of God. Consider that. Sorry...have a nice life.

 

[Unification]

If this is what you recommend because you cannot furnish answers to even simple questions without walls of incoherent nonsense, then we have nothing more to discuss. I don't know who you "think" you are, but you are not any teacher that I would ever listen to. You downgrade everything I hold to be true. And you cannot back up a single thing you say with the word of God. Consider that. Sorry...have a nice life.

The Spirit and the great mind will always be opposed.

 

[Wharton]

What is there to get?

The perfect man-only Jesus can only cover the one sin of perfect man-only Adam. That's the equal balance you proclaim. It can be nothing more than that, ever.

Which is why Paul states that the gift (Jesus) was greater than the transgression. How is that the 'equal' ransom that you proclaim? It's not.

 

[Kolibri]

@Unification . I think I can see how you came up with what you did. But I feel that you have taken the zeal for looking at types and anti-types to excess. Everything you stated seems to be applying a metaphor of something dealing with the mind/body/energy of the individual.

We run the risk of going beyond what is written when we apply types and anti-types that are not explicitly described as such in the written word.

"Now, brothers, these things I have applied (or "transferred.") to myself and Apollos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: 'Do not go beyond the things that are written,' so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against another." - 1 Corinthians 4:6

Zeal, engenders enthusiasm. Enthusiasm engenders a focus. It is easy to get hyper-focused on the things that we enjoy. It is my belief that by over-searching for metaphors you are missing out on the meat of God's word. The Bible was written so the spiritual man examines all things - and that includes the material. It is the only way to maintain balance.

"For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." - 1 Cor 2:10
"But a physical man does not accept (or "receive.") the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things but he himself is not examined by any man." - 1 Cor 2:15

You quoted these scriptures, but we may want to reexamine what a physical man is. Romans 8:5 teaches us that this sort of man has his mind set "on the things of the flesh." What are the things of the flesh? Ga 5:19-21 lists these things.

"Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, idolatry, spiritism, (or "sorcery, druggery.") hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, (or "revelries.") and things like these."

That is the focus of a physical man that keeps him thinking spiritual things are foolish. The spiritual man is not made physical by simple, material explanations of scripture. Interpreting all things to an energy definition is overshooting the goal of a spiritual man. The "mind of Christ" is simply the "same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had." (1 Cor 2:16; Ro 15:5) No more and no less. Examining all things is graspable. But defining the Bible by the idea that all things are some anti-type of some body/mind/energy definition is finding parallels that are not internally supported as such.

 

[Wharton]

You are correct, truth never changes and neither does God......so why do you suppose the apostate church that developed after the the death of the apostles, reinvented the one God of Israel? How does this unchangeable God suddenly develop a multiple personality disorder?

Jesus was a Jew and not once did he contradict the shema. (Deut 6:4; Luke 4:8.)

Yah think your human-only Jesus knew this one from scripture? And as a human-only Jew he would go against scripture?

"Jews believe that one person's death cannot atone for the sins of another.

IN SHORT... The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.' "

 

[Kolibri]

The perfect man-only Jesus can only cover the one sin of perfect man-only Adam. That's the equal balance you proclaim. It can be nothing more than that, ever.

Which is why Paul states that the gift (Jesus) was greater than the transgression. How is that the 'equal' ransom that you proclaim? It's not.

Jesus shed blood does not cover the sin of Adam, nor the sin of any of those that "sinned in the same way that Adam transgressed." (Romans 5:14)

As a deliberate and undeceived sinner, Adam is not redeemable any more than Judas Iscariot is redeemable. So Jesus blood is not being used to save Adam.

Only Adam's offspring that do not sin "in the same way that" he did get redeemed. These ones' blood is not as precious as Jesus' as it has always been infected with the taint.

Had a man of integrity been our first parent none of the involuntary sins nor the sins done out of ignorance would have happened, as we would have inherited the capacity for perfect integrity.

Remember Jesus did not just give up his life, he gave up the right to raise a family of perfect offspring. All that potential was traded for Adam's offspring.

 

[JayJayDee]

Yah think your human-only Jesus knew this one from scripture? And as a human-only Jew he would go against scripture?

"Jews believe that one person's death cannot atone for the sins of another.

As Kolibri has said....no imperfect life could atone for the perfect life Adam lost for his children. What Adam lost is what Jesus came to redeem with a "ransom" paid to God. What is a ransom? An equivalent life had to be exchanged in atonement. (at-one-ment)

IN SHORT... The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.' "

In short, you have not made clear what the ransom is, and why Christ's death was even necessary.

What does John 3:16 mean?

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."

What does Matt 20:28 mean?

"just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His a life a ransom for many.”

How is Christ's life a "ransom"?

 

[JayJayDee]

The Spirit and the great mind will always be opposed.

Jesus had a great mind and he was full of God's spirit.....it is God and the devil who will always be opposed.

You have nothing to tell us or to impart to us except from your own personal interpretation of everything. None of it is from the Bible and frankly, none of it makes a scrap of sense to me. I am a logical thinker. God gave me a logical mind for a reason.....your ideas not only defy logic, they are not from the Bible. They are from your own mind. (Can you prove that they are not?)

If you have nothing to share from scripture (and I mean scripture that actually uses modern English...please lose that archaic KJV) then we might have a basis for discussion. You can't...so we don't.

 

[Unification]

@Unification . I think I can see how you came up with what you did. But I feel that you have taken the zeal for looking at types and anti-types to excess. Everything you stated seems to be applying a metaphor of something dealing with the mind/body/energy of the individual.

We run the risk of going beyond what is written when we apply types and anti-types that are not explicitly described as such in the written word.

"Now, brothers, these things I have applied (or "transferred.") to myself and Apollos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: 'Do not go beyond the things that are written,' so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against another." - 1 Corinthians 4:6

Zeal, engenders enthusiasm. Enthusiasm engenders a focus. It is easy to get hyper-focused on the things that we enjoy. It is my belief that by over-searching for metaphors you are missing out on the meat of God's word. The Bible was written so the spiritual man examines all things - and that includes the material. It is the only way to maintain balance.

"For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God." - 1 Cor 2:10
"But a physical man does not accept (or "receive.") the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things but he himself is not examined by any man." - 1 Cor 2:15

You quoted these scriptures, but we may want to reexamine what a physical man is. Romans 8:5 teaches us that this sort of man has his mind set "on the things of the flesh." What are the things of the flesh? Ga 5:19-21 lists these things.

"Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, idolatry, spiritism, (or "sorcery, druggery.") hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, envy, drunkenness, wild parties, (or "revelries.") and things like these."

That is the focus of a physical man that keeps him thinking spiritual things are foolish. The spiritual man is not made physical by simple, material explanations of scripture. Interpreting all things to an energy definition is overshooting the goal of a spiritual man. The "mind of Christ" is simply the "same mental attitude that Christ Jesus had." (1 Cor 2:16; Ro 15:5) No more and no less. Examining all things is graspable. But defining the Bible by the idea that all things are some anti-type of some body/mind/energy definition is finding parallels that are not internally supported as such.

Thank you for the reply and well said. The meat of God and the bible is all about God saving a human, and destroying the evil IN him, and that evil is seen all around you, me, and everyone.... All over the world. It's because things are taken literally we've had slavery, oppression of poor, man ruling woman, God has become a job and money, rather than duty, beating of children, hundreds of thousands of different religions, arguments, murders and wars over holy land that's not holy. What's holy is humans.' The internal evil of thoughts and desires and emotions of mankind, need destroyed and God becoming that humans' Lord and Savior. Only place a man/woman can be saved and transformed is within himself/herself. The Lord reigning in ones life. This is universal and creates no divide. So, therefore, the meat and entire gospel and bible is the transformation of mankind within being saved by God within. All the matter of everything is else, quite essentially is useless and of no profit. Religion was never meant to be. Again, religion has created some devil and anti-God to blame for the world's problems when the world's problems are right where man can't see and are deceived by- THEMSELVES. Self centeredness, greed, pride, arrogance, hate, division, religion.... This is man's doing and empire. Not some fake made up devil to blame. Mankind needs held accountable. This is the entire bible. Mankind is severely fractured by their own minds and flesh and are in need of a savior, a savior that conquers their sin and gives a human rest and peace, Comfort and direction, not all this phony nonsense taught by mankind. maybe then people would start making a difference in this world more and stop trying to save people themselves by convincing them to join a certain religion. God saves and God teaches.

 

[Unification]

Jesus had a great mind and he was full of God's spirit.....it is God and the devil who will always be opposed.

You have nothing to tell us or to impart to us except from your own personal interpretation of everything. None of it is from the Bible and frankly, none of it makes a scrap of sense to me. I am a logical thinker. God gave me a logical mind for a reason.....your ideas not only defy logic, they are not from the Bible. They are from your own mind. (Can you prove that they are not?)

If you have nothing to share from scripture (and I mean scripture that actually uses modern English...please lose that archaic KJV) then we might have a basis for discussion. You can't...so we don't.

Of course he had a great mind, he had the Christ conscious. Mind of God to defeat natural mind and flesh. There is nothing wrong with a brilliant mind, there is everything wrong with a fractured and evil and lying mind. Sure , read the reply to Kolibri. That's common sense and spirit, and truth. Before you frown upon what I say, just know who else you're frowning upon.

 

[katiemygirl]

"Katzpur, post: 4168532, member: 2540"]
We are saying many of the same things. I believe the problem is more a result of how we define our terms than anything else. In speaking to people with the same religious backgrounds, we know that they understand the words we use in exactly the same way as we do, and we often forget that other people may be using these words a bit differently.

You are absolutely correct! I thought the same thing about defining terms differently.

Agreed, provided "God" is understood to be a title which can be applied to any of three divine persons. Already, though, things get confusing: If someone were to ask what a divine person is, the logical answer would be that a divine person is a god. When speaking of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, each of whom is a "divine person" (i.e. a "god"), we say they are "God," and we say they are "one." I would assume that you use the word "God" (with a capital 'G') to refer to any of these three persons individually or to refer to all three collectively. You would probably be entirely comfortable in saying that Jesus is God but still making some kind of a distinction between Him and the Holy Ghost, for instance. We would too, although most of the time, when we use the word "God," we are referring to God the Father. Typically, we use the title "Lord" to refer to Jesus Christ.

The only difference with my view that I see in what you wrote is that I would never refer to either the Father, Son or Holy Spirit as "a god." I simply call the Father God, the Son God and the Holy Spirit God. When I say "God bless you," I am referring to the three collectively. I always express God with the capital G because God is a title. There is never a time, in my view, that I think of either of them as "a god." Please understand that I don't speak for any other christian anywhere, not even those in my own congregation. This is how Katie sees it.

Mormons believe they are identical in all of the attributes and characteristic that are associated with divinity. In other words, none of them is more divine than the others. We don't use the word "essence" in speaking of God, and to us, the word is confusing (as is the word "substance"). When I use these words (especially "substance") I tend to think of the physical. To me, water is a substance, as are soil, wool, honey and Jello pudding. When Trinitarians say that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one substance," it doesn't make sense to us, and we don't see it as having any biblical foundation. The Son, for instance, has a physical (although immortal body); the Holy Ghost does not. To us, that means they are not "made of the same substance." If, by substance or essence you are referring to non-physical attributes, then I believe we are pretty much on the same page.

When I say Father, Son and Holy Spirit are of the same essence, I am saying they have the same attributes and characteristics. I do not see anything physical in this word, but I suppose someone else could. However, substance is probably not the best word to use when talking about God, but because our understanding of God is so limited, our vocabulary reflects it. I think what is being said when the word substance is used is simply that the three are equal in every way. I think the favored word now is subsistence rather than substance. I saw it written in a few articles, but I haven't really given it any thought.

We do believe, though (and I think this may be where we differ from you) that when Jesus referred to His Father as His God, that was because of how He saw Him -- not just at that moment but forever. The Bible is full of examples where the Father sends the Son (never the reverse), the Son does the Father's will (never the other way around), the Son prays to the Father (never the Father to the Son). We believe that their relationship today is what it always was -- one where the Son does, in fact, see His Father as being the greater of the two. Now this is not saying that the Father is "more divine" than the Son or more of any of the qualities that make them both "God." God told us to honor our parents; we believe that the Father is Jesus' Father and God and that He looks up to Him.

I thought this short piece below reflected my views. The author uses the word "trinity," but other than that, I think we can both agree with what he says.

Since the Son has eternally related to the Father as a Son, He is eternally submissive to the Father. That is why the Son allowed Himself to be sent by the Father into the world. And that is why Jesus said, “My Father is greater than I." This statement by Jesus only refers to the authority structure within the Godhead. It does not refer to any difference between the nature of the Father and the nature of the Son. It is important to stress that Christ’s submission to His Father does not in any way diminish His nature as God the Son. He is equal to the Father in essence. He is to be worshiped and glorified on the same level as the Father. Jesus said that all should honor Him “just as they honor the Father.”

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed in a structure of relationships. The Father is the Head, then the Son, then the Spirit. These three timeless and equal Persons have positions of authority based on their relationships with each other. This structure of authority is reflected in the family and in the church. Like the Trinity, all the members of the family and in the church have equal value, but not all have the same role. God commands husbands to lead their wives and fathers to lead their families. This does not make them more important than others in the home or the church. As in the Trinity, difference in roles does not negate equality of value and nature.

2 Corinthians 13:11 says, "Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you."

Acts 4:32 states, "And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common."

In each of these examples, the word "one" is used to describe a unity that has nothing to do with the numeral "1". We believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are "one" in every aspect except the physical, in which they are three. Their unity of will, purpose, mind and heart is perfect and absolute.

We differ here. I don't see the Father or the Holy Spirit existing as physical beings written anywhere in the Bible. As for the verses you quoted, and the unity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I couldn't agree more.

After reading everything you've written, the only difference I'm seeing in our views is that you see three different physical beings. Would it be unfair of me to say that you believe in the spiritual sense, there is one God, but in the physical sense there are three Gods? Help me to understand your position better and tell me where in the Bible are you getting this view from.

Thanks for the great discussion. I've spent a lot of time learning about JW's so I can speak with them when they come to my door. I'd like to be able to do the same with Mormon folks.

 

[Muffled]

That's not entirely true. There is biblical evidence of children being baptized.

However I believe it was still believers baptism and a baby has no beliefs.