Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[The Real Milk Man]

Please help me out:

The Jesus that I know acknowledges/recognizes one as His God, both pre and post ascension.


Do I know the 'right' Jesus; or do I know just 'another' Jesus??




(Luke 12:8-9)

 

[JM2C]

Your view means of course, that the preaching work Jesus assigned to his disciples is all for nothing. It basically boils down to a message of doom for all those who won't accept the triune godhead, (which incidentally did not exist in church doctrine until the 4th century) . Everyone who is "chosen" by God to believe the trinity will do so, and those who are not "chosen" will not, no matter what anyone tells them? Oh happy days! What "good news" that is!

I'll just sneak back into my hole and refrain from saying a word to anyone because my preaching is useless then? The good news is really just bad news. Yep.

more of those recycled rhetorical arguments from you means you can’t defend your twisted theology.

 

[JM2C]

OK, consider this......what if the trinity is the greatest blasphemy ever perpetrated in the name of Christianity?

What if these scriptures are talking about those who accept the blasphemy as truth?

What if the "lawlessness" is putting the son in the same position as the Father and thus breaking the first commandment?

Who then becomes a "worker of lawlessness"? Who then is "taking pleasure in wickedness"?


Please think about that.



But they could never be talking about you guys though. LOL

How about think about this all the time.

We have never claimed to be prophets. It's not against any law to hope or to express that hope.

Their church is the self-proclaimed prophet of God, The Watchtower, April 1,
1972, p. 197.

And think of all those end of the world predictions you people predicted and all of them have failed. Now, do you think you people are the true prophets of God?

Not according to,

Dt 18:22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

 

[JM2C]

What if the "wolves in sheep's clothing" were already corrupting Christianity before the apostles passed away? What if the wolves are the ones who introduced the trinity so long ago, that most people accept it as the foundation doctrine of Christianity?

Trinitarian’s doctrines are well supported by the Scriptures on which you/jw people are trying to distort, forge, adulterate, twist.

 

[JM2C]

We obey the Christ in taking the kingdom message to all who will listen, thereby not pre-judging anyone, but giving everyone an opportunity at life everlasting.

You and your good deeds again.

So, I guess time will tell won't it?

Remember you don’t wanna be on the wrong side of eternity at the end.

 

[JM2C]

Oh boy, now we are fated to be "wrong."

With you twisted doctrines? Yes!

Why even bother then, as all things good and bad have already been foretold down to the tiniest detail?

Think about this verse, JN 3:18 “ He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Here we have two destinations one for the good and one for the bad. Now, from here on until your death or anyone’s death, no matter what you do, between life and death, it’s either you believe or not believe “in the name of the only begotten Son of God” will dictate your final destination.

Therefore, as far as ones final destination is concern “it has been foretold to the tiniest detail”, and that is, it’s either you will be with God, i.e., if you “believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” or you will be with satan, i.e., if you don’t “believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God”. But you asked, “why even bother then”. Really?

Of course, I could be misunderstanding your words here but it seems you believe in individual predestination of salvation

So then, what's the point of doing anything. All purpose is illusionary. Still that is a topic for another thread. .

Your kind of salvation is by faith with works and not by faith alone. So you guys keep on doing things or inventing things so you could please God.

 

[Kolibri]

Your kind of salvation is by faith with works and not by faith alone. So you guys keep on doing things or inventing things so you could please God.

our kind of faith is balanced in the works we show.

Though this scripture is about setting monies aside for giving, the principle is applicable to all of our resources.

"For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have." - 2 Corinthians 8:12

As regards the mud-slinging comment I made, It was because we keep rehashing the same arguments. I already recognize there will be no concord between you and me, and I keep thinking of 1 Timothy 6:4 and 2 Timothy 2:23. What comes after our reasonings are not accepted? Typically attacks.

"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome (or "healthful; beneficial.") instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed (or "has an unhealthy fascination.") with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, (or "abusive speeches.") wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of [financial] gain." - 1 Timothy 6:3-5

"Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle (or "tactful.") toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance (or "a change of mind.") leading to an accurate knowledge of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:23-25

I do not want to take our disagreement about the identity of Jesus to the point where I am slinging insults on you or you on me. Tact is a skill that takes time to develop. Meanwhile, we both have gone beyond the instructions found in these verses.

We do not need to force the truth on people. We share, but it is God that makes things grow as is seen in the last part of 2 Tim 2:25. What is important is not how many people listen to us, but our keeping busy in the work of the Lord.

"Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 15:58

 

[JayJayDee]

Your kind of salvation is by faith with works and not by faith alone. So you guys keep on doing things or inventing things so you could please God.

James 2:14, 17-22, 24-26...."What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " (NKJV)

Argue with James.

It is the faith that moves one to works. No works means your faith is dead.

 

[Nada]

our kind of faith is balanced in the works we show.

Though this scripture is about setting monies aside for giving, the principle is applicable to all of our resources.

"For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have." - 2 Corinthians 8:12

As regards the mud-slinging comment I made, It was because we keep rehashing the same arguments. I already recognize there will be no concord between you and me, and I keep thinking of 1 Timothy 6:4 and 2 Timothy 2:23. What comes after our reasonings are not accepted? Typically attacks.

"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome (or "healthful; beneficial.") instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed (or "has an unhealthy fascination.") with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander (or "abusive speeches.") wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of [financial] gain." - 1 Timothy 6:3-5

"Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle (or "tactful.") toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance (or "a change of mind.") leading to an accurate knowledge of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:23

I do not want to take our disagreement about the identity of Jesus to the point where I am slinging insults on you or you on me. Tact is a skill that takes time to develop. Meanwhile, we both have gone beyond the instructions found in these verses.

We do not need to force the truth on people. We share, but it is God that makes things grow as is seen in the last part of 2 Tim 2:23. What is important is not how many people listen to us, but our keeping busy in the work of the Lord.

"Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 15:58

AMEN!

 

[cataway]

Did you read the article?
You cannot place an indefinite article before theos in the 3rd clause for the simple reason that it was NOT there in Greek to begin with.

Why can’t you understand that the ONLY reason why JW placed that “a” before theos, without any proof at all exegetically, is because they want to deny the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s all about denying the Lord Jesus Christ as God, the Son of God from eternity.

Let’s just use our daily common sense. How can an “a god” be with “the God” before the beginning. Why would God need an “a god” to create the heavens and the earth? Read John 1:3 and Genesis chapter 1 and 2 and find out who created the heavens and the earth. It did not say angel/s.

How can one specifically define “the Word” with the definite article, meaning as the only “the Word” in a sentence and as the subject of the sentence in the 3rd clause, and then uncategorized this [“the Word”] with indefinite article like an “a god”?

The “a god” implies that there are more than one “a god”, i.e., there are gods with “the God” before the creation of the heavens and the earth or before the beginning. This is how they support their twisted concept or theory that the Lord Jesus Christ was just an angel of God, but Hebrews 1:6 “And let all the angels of God worship him.” proved them wrong. Angels worship God and not their fellow angels. The one the angels worship is clearly superior by far to them.

Here is one the commenters:

In John 1:3, it is written that «πάνταδι᾽αὐτοῦἐγένετοκαὶχωρὶςαὐτοῦἐγένετοοὐδὲἕνὃγέγονεν», that is, "All things were made by him, and not one thing that was made was made without him."

Now, folks, all things were made by the Word (ὁλόγος, which is the antecedent of the pronoun αὐτοῦ in John 1:3).


If the Word is "a god" but not "God," how then did the Word "make all things"?

"A god" is created (a creature), for only God is uncreate and eternal. Only God is the creator of all things.

So, how did a god create all things when he himself had to be created?

It's illogical. No, it's not a "mystery" that we can simply brush off. It's illogical. It's a contradiction. The Bible is not a book of contradiction. It's a book of truth. The Word must be God because it created all things.”

maybe you missed this in the article ''The reason the clause at the end of John 1:1 lacks the article deals with rules of Greek grammar. English uses word order to drive the meaning of a sentence. We almost always have subjects first, then verbs, then the objects is. Greek doesn't use word order to differentiate between types of nouns. They use word order for emphasis (Hebrew does the same thing). To tell the difference in the subject and the object (both of which are nouns), Greek uses case endings. They can then put the object of the verb at the beginning of the clause with the subject after the verb and still know what the sentence means.''

 

[JayJayDee]

You should ask yourself why it's not part of the bible cannon. Since it is the most complete gospel available to you to date. It's verified ancient and at least two of your current bible gospels factually got their origins from the G-12 text.

Since I believe that God's spirit directed the compilation of the books that make up scripture, it is God who left it out. Regardless of its antiquity or whether men thought it should be there.....it isn't there for a good reason, like other apocryphal books.

 

[Nada]

maybe you missed this in the article ''The reason the clause at the end of John 1:1 lacks the article deals with rules of Greek grammar. English uses word order to drive the meaning of a sentence. We almost always have subjects first, then verbs, then the objects (excepted Yoda speech is). Greek doesn't use word order to differentiate between types of nouns. They use word order for emphasis (Hebrew does the same thing). To tell the difference in the subject and the object (both of which are nouns), Greek uses case endings. They can then put the object of the verb at the beginning of the clause with the subject after the verb and still know what the sentence means.''

Lol...Love the Yoda reference.

 

[JayJayDee]

Trinitarian’s doctrines are well supported by the Scriptures on which you/jw people are trying to distort, forge, adulterate, twist.

Well, I hate to burst your bubble, but it has been brought to your attention many times that there is not one direct statement from either God or his Christ in scripture that makes the trinity either a Jewish or a Christian teaching. You will find trinities in pagan religion though.
I have asked you for one verse categorically stating what you claim several times....none have been forthcoming.

If Jesus was a Jew and the Jews accepted no such idea from their scriptures...the very scriptures Jesus himself quoted, then why did this teaching only emerge and gain entry into church doctrine over 300 years after Jesus died? The very time when apostasy was foretold?

Again...I ask you to provide a direct statement from the Bible and not some ambiguous verses where the trinity is injected by vague inference.

John 1:1 is no proof of a trinity because no threesome is even mentioned.

There is no indefinite article ("a" or "an") in Greek. That means that every time you see an indefinite article in the English translation, it wasn't there in the Greek text. Only the definite article (the) is used in Greek. Now have a look at how many times you see an "a" or an "an" in your Bible and then tell me how you know that "a" doesn't belong in John 1:1?
It is up to the translators to insert the indefinite article in order to aid understanding. Bias dictates whether to use the "a" or not. Since there is no direct statement of a trinity in any verse of the Bible, it is trinitarian bias that rendered it the way it is translated in the KJV and others....pure and simple.

Jesus is not and never has been part of a godhead. The word "godhead" was made up by Christendom. The twisting of scripture goes way back....long before Jehovah's modern day people were cleansed of such God dishonouring doctrine.

There is no point in arguing with the blind.

Hang onto your trinity if it makes you happy. Only God can tell you that he is "one Jehovah" (Deut 6:4) Only Jesus can tell you to worship Jehovah "alone" (Luke 4:8.)

 

[Wharton]

If Jesus was a Jew and the Jews accepted no such idea from their scriptures...the very scriptures Jesus himself quoted, then why did this teaching only emerge and gain entry into church doctrine over 300 years after Jesus died? The very time when apostasy was foretold?

And Jews don't believe in human sacrifice nor that a man can atone for the sins of another, but you do. The trinity was in church doctrine well before 300.

 

[JayJayDee]

And Jews don't believe in human sacrifice nor that a man can atone for the sins of another, but you do. The trinity was in church doctrine well before 300.

So that means that you discount all the writings of the Christian scriptures that call Jesus' sacrifice a "ransom" for mankind.

Matthew 20:28...."just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (NKJV)

All those animal sacrifices in Israel were for what?

There was no agreement or doctrine of the trinity until it was declared church doctrine in the 4th century.

 

[Wharton]

So that means that you discount all the writings of the Christian scriptures that call Jesus' sacrifice a "ransom" for mankind.

Matthew 20:28...."just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.” (NKJV)

All those animal sacrifices in Israel were for what?

There was no agreement or doctrine of the trinity until it was declared church doctrine in the 4th century.

Jesus sacrifice is a ransom only if he is God/man.

Realize that the church was persecuted until the 4th century. What were you expecting as far as a unified set of doctrines during the persecution time frame?.

 

[JayJayDee]

Jesus sacrifice is a ransom only if he is God/man.

Please show me where the Bible says that.

Jesus is referred to as "the last Adam"......was Adam God? It was Adam's life that Jesus came to atone for. It was a life of equal value. To atone for a creation with the life of the Creator is a tad overkill....not to mention that an immortal God cannot die.

Realize that the church was persecuted until the 4th century. What were you expecting as far as a unified set of doctrines during the persecution time frame?.

I was expecting that a doctrine already held to be true by Jesus and his apostles would be clearly stated in the scriptures. Not something that needed to be forced into church teachings hundreds of years after he died....and even then there was controversy over it.

Can you furnish one clear statement from either Jesus or his Father that they share an equal part of a godhead? Can you show me "God the Son" or even "God the Holy Spirit" in one single verse?

Would Jesus call his Father "the only true God" (John 17:3) and exclude himself from that statement if he were both "fully God" at the time he was "fully man"?

There is still no threesome.

 

[moorea944]

ah, but you do understand that Jesus returned to heaven

Yeah, but do YOU understand that Jesus didnt exist before his birth? He came down from heaven, yes, but with other parts of the bible, we know that he didnt pre-exist. He came from God. Not physically, but he was part of God's plans. (John 1_

No such thing as 100% God and 100% man. Jesus started his life at his birth. Even the people in the OT would know who the messiah would be. Even David knew that he would come from himself.

 

[Nada]

Jesus sacrifice is a ransom only if he is God/man.

Realize that the church was persecuted until the 4th century. What were you expecting as far as a unified set of doctrines during the persecution time frame?.

What church?

 

[Kolibri]

Yeah, but do YOU understand that Jesus didnt exist before his birth? He came down from heaven, yes, but with other parts of the bible, we know that he didnt pre-exist. He came from God. Not physically, but he was part of God's plans. (John 1_

No such thing as 100% God and 100% man. Jesus started his life at his birth. Even the people in the OT would know who the messiah would be. Even David knew that he would come from himself.

Philippians 2:5 says points out that Jesus had a mental attitude prior to emptying himself and becoming human.(vs 7) This points to him having an existence other than human, prior to being human. However we never equate him with Jehovah, his Father. We see him as the oldest angel that has lived for (considering the age of the physical universe) at least billions of years.

As angels are people with spirit bodies, and God is a spirit person, they shared the same nature - that is a person consisting of spirit instead of being made with living flesh. (John 4:24)
Jesus was unique in that he was the only one created by God directly. (Colossians 1:16,17)

Not seeing Jesus as God himself, we are free to see the similarities between Jesus and Michael the archangel and recognized that the Bible only ever mentions archangel in the singular. That is one of the reasons we see Michael as Jesus at a different point in his own life.