Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Wharton]

What church?

Not yours. That didn't come until 1800 years later. Jehovah led the world into error for 1800 years until CT Russell came along.

 

[Wharton]

Jesus is referred to as "the last Adam"......was Adam God? It was Adam's life that Jesus came to atone for. It was a life of equal value. To atone for a creation with the life of the Creator is a tad overkill....not to mention that an immortal God cannot die.

The First Adam and the Last Adam has nothing to do with being God. It's about obedience.

Once again, a creation was not offended. The infinite/God was offended. A man/creation can not provide anything to God that he already does not have. Your human ransom sacrifice is worthless and meaningless to the infinite.

 

[Wharton]

Philippians 2:5 says points out that Jesus had a mental attitude prior to emptying himself and becoming human.(vs 7) This points to him having an existence other than human, prior to being human. However we never equate him with Jehovah, his Father. We see him as the oldest angel that has lived for (considering the age of the physical universe) at least billions of years.

As angels are people with spirit bodies, and God is a spirit person, they shared the same nature - that is a person consisting of spirit instead of being made with living flesh. (John 4:24)
Jesus was unique in that he was the only one created by God directly. (Colossians 1:16,17)

Not seeing Jesus as God himself, we are free to see the similarities between Jesus and Michael the archangel and recognized that the Bible only ever mentions archangel in the singular. That is one of the reasons we see Michael as Jesus at a different point in his own life.

Philippians also states that the name Jesus is above all others in heaven and on earth. Does that mean his name is above Jehovah God's? How is that possible?

We see him as the oldest angel that has lived for (considering the age of the physical universe) at least billions of years.

Since you've limited the infinite to the finite, is that why JW's used to believe that Jehovah lived in the Pleaides star system?

 

[Wharton]

There is still no threesome

Why don't you post your "Should you believe in the Trinity" pamphlet so we can all tear it apart?

I hear it's not longer available in print and has not be replaced by the GB. How'd that happen? Is there some new light shining brighter that's coming soon? Maybe going back to the early days of Zion's Watchtower when they printed about the Trinity?

 

[Wharton]

Not seeing Jesus as God himself, we are free to see the similarities between Jesus and Michael the archangel and recognized that the Bible only ever mentions archangel in the singular. That is one of the reasons we see Michael as Jesus at a different point in his own life.

But, but, Seraphim and Cherubim are higher ranking angels. Why does a lowly archangel get stuck with the job of being the ransom?

 

[JayJayDee]

The First Adam and the Last Adam has nothing to do with being God. It's about obedience.

You don't appear to understand the mechanics of the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

The "first and last Adam" has everything to do with atonement as well as obedience. Jesus proved that the perfect Adam could have maintained his obedience to his God under test. But that does not explain the ransom.

God's law required equivalency.....a life had to be offered for a life. A capital offence was committed in Eden. No human was now equal to the once perfect Adam, so a perfect sinless life had to come from outside the now sinful human race. An equivalent life to the one he lost for his children, had to offered to balance the scales of justice. Jesus came as a perfect human to pay the price of redemption.

Why do you think it's called a ransom? It the price paid to buy back a life.

Once again, a creation was not offended. The infinite/God was offended. A man/creation can not provide anything to God that he already does not have. Your human ransom sacrifice is worthless and meaningless to the infinite.

You keep repeating this. Where does it say in the scriptures that God was offended? Where do you get the notion that this somehow required God to die? God cannot die...he is an immortal being. Mere mortals cannot kill God. This is a ludicrous notion.

Adam broke God's law. The law carried the death penalty, so Adam paid for his sin with his own life, but he could not pay for the sin that he passed on to his children. Jesus came to do that. Adam lost perfect sinless life for them. (Ron 5:12) Jesus offered a perfect sinless life to buy it back.

Surely you see the reasonableness in this?

 

[JayJayDee]

But, but, Seraphim and Cherubim are higher ranking angels. Why does a lowly archangel get stuck with the job of being the ransom?

Try again. Serifs and cherubs are subordinate to the Archangel. "Arch" designates that he is the chief angel. There is only one Archangel.

Michael commands all the angels. There is no one in heaven who ranks higher than he does, except God himself. This is why we believe that Jesus may well be the Archangel Michael in his pre-human existence.

It is not a doctrine but a belief. Nothing falls apart if it proves not to be true. Whereas if you trinity is false, everything you believe falls in a heap.

 

[JayJayDee]

Why don't you post your "Should you believe in the Trinity" pamphlet so we can all tear it apart?

This is how you respond to a statement that has no answer.

There is no threesome mentioned in John 1:1... Is there?

I hear it's not longer available in print and has not be replaced by the GB. How'd that happen? Is there some new light shining brighter that's coming soon? Maybe going back to the early days of Zion's Watchtower when they printed about the Trinity?

You have a hotline to the GB do you?

Here is the section in the "What Does the Bible Really Teach" book available online.

"APPENDIX

The Truth About the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit

PEOPLE who believe the Trinity teaching say that God consists of three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each of these three persons is said to be equal to the others, almighty, and without beginning. According to the Trinity doctrine, therefore, the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, yet there is only one God.

Many who believe the Trinity admit that they are not able to explain this teaching. Still, they may feel that it is taught in the Bible. It is worth noting that the word “Trinity” never occurs in the Bible. But is the idea of a Trinity found there? To answer this question, let us look at a scripture that supporters often cite to uphold the Trinity.

“THE WORD WAS GOD”

John 1:1 states: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (King James Version) Later in the same chapter, the apostle John clearly shows that “the Word” is Jesus. (John 1:14) Since the Word is called God, however, some conclude that the Son and the Father must be part of the same God.

Bear in mind that this part of the Bible was originally written in Greek. Later, translators rendered the Greek text into other languages. A number of Bible translators, though, did not use the phrase “the Word was God.” Why not? Based on their knowledge of Biblical Greek, those translators concluded that the phrase “the Word was God” should be translated differently. How? Here are a few examples: “The Logos [Word] was divine.” (A New Translation of the Bible) “The Word was a god.” (The New Testament in an Improved Version) “The Word was with God and shared his nature.” (The Translator’s New Testament) According to these translations, the Word is not God himself.* Instead, because of his high position among Jehovah’s creatures, the Word is referred to as “a god.” Here the term “god” means “mighty one.”

GET MORE FACTS

Most people do not know Biblical Greek. So how can you know what the apostle John really meant? Think of this example: A schoolteacher explains a subject to his students. Afterward, the students differ on how to understand the explanation. How can the students resolve the matter? They could ask the teacher for more information. No doubt, learning additional facts would help them to understand the subject better. Similarly, to grasp the meaning of John 1:1, you can look in the Gospel of John for more information on Jesus’ position. Learning additional facts on this subject will help you to draw the right conclusion.

For instance, consider what John further writes in chapter 1, verse 18: “No man has seen [Almighty] God at any time.” However, humans have seen Jesus, the Son, for John says: “The Word [Jesus] was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory.” (John 1:14, KJ) How, then, could the Son be part of Almighty God? John also states that the Word was “with God.” But how can an individual be with someone and at the same time be that person? Moreover, as recorded at John 17:3, Jesus makes a clear distinction between himself and his heavenly Father. He calls his Father “the only true God.” And toward the end of his Gospel, John sums up matters by saying: “These have been written down that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ the Son of God.” (John 20:31) Notice that Jesus is called, not God, but the Son of God. This additional information provided in the Gospel of John shows how John 1:1 should be understood. Jesus, the Word, is “a god” in the sense that he has a high position but is not the same as Almighty God.

CONFIRM THE FACTS

Think again about the example of the schoolteacher and the students. Imagine that some still have doubts, even after listening to the teacher’s additional explanation. What could they do? They could turn to another teacher for further information on the same subject. If the second teacher confirms the explanation of the first one, the doubts of most students may be put to rest. Similarly, if you are not sure what the Bible writer John was really saying about the relationship between Jesus and Almighty God, you could turn to another Bible writer for further information. Consider what was written by Matthew, for example. Regarding the end of this system of things, he quotes Jesus as saying: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:36) How do these words confirm that Jesus is not Almighty God?

Jesus says that the Father knows more than the Son does. If Jesus were part of Almighty God, however, he would know the same facts as his Father. So, then, the Son and the Father cannot be equal. Yet, some will say: ‘Jesus had two natures. Here he speaks as a man.’ But even if that were so, what about the holy spirit? If it is part of the same God as the Father, why does Jesus not say that it knows what the Father knows?

As you continue your Bible studies, you will become familiar with many more Bible passages that have a bearing on this subject. They confirm the truth about the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit.—Psalm 90:2; Acts 7:55; Colossians 1:15.

[Footnote]

For a further discussion of John 1:1, see pages 24-25 of the November 1, 2008, issue of The Watchtower, published by Jehovah’s Witnesses."

The Truth About the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

Go your hardest....... Nothing much more there that we have not already brought out in discussion.

 

[Kolibri]

that why JW's used to believe that Jehovah lived in the Pleaides star system?

I was unfamiliar with this. I know that we went thru major refinements early on. That was part of prophesy. (Mal 3:1-5) But we endured "the day of his coming." And we got and kept busy in the work Jesus commanded, namely the preaching "the good news of the kingdom" (Mt 24:14; 28:19,20) We did not give out. The churches of Christendom en mass have quit preaching publicly and from house to house, and those that do either do it for financial gain or preach "another testament" about our Lord Jesus instead of focusing on the Kingdom. (Acts 5:42; 20:20; 1 Peter 5:2)

Point me to any other organization that is doing what Jesus asked us to do as thoroughly (or at all) in our day?

 

[cataway]

Yeah, but do YOU understand that Jesus didnt exist before his birth? He came down from heaven, yes, but with other parts of the bible, we know that he didnt pre-exist. He came from God. Not physically, but he was part of God's plans. (John 1_

No such thing as 100% God and 100% man. Jesus started his life at his birth. Even the people in the OT would know who the messiah would be. Even David knew that he would come from himself.

If he did not exist. ......how did he" return" there?

 

[Wharton]

You keep repeating this. Where does it say in the scriptures that God was offended? Where do you get the notion that this somehow required God to die? God cannot die...he is an immortal being. Mere mortals cannot kill God. This is a ludicrous notion.

All sin offends God. Adam and Eve's offended God. They disobeyed him. What don't you understand about that? You need more than a human sacrifice to atone or else the babies that Herod murdered would have done the job.

God as a person died on the cross. In taking on Mary's humanity, God experienced all aspects of human life from conception to death. If not, you are not redeemed. All stages of human life must be redeemed. If that was not required, then Jesus could have magically appeared as a God-created, full grown man, just like Adam. But Jesus didn't appear full grown like Adam. Do you really think God would hold you to something (the difficulties of human life) he did not do/experience himself?

How do you expect to be fairly judged by God if he has no experience in being human? The Johnnie Cochrane defense of "if the glove does not fit, you must acquit" will not work with God. He's been there. Done that. There is no excuse.

Oh, I forgot, your God is too busy to be personally involved with humanity. You will be judged by an archangel. And somehow, that's not in the bible.

 

[Wharton]

This is how you respond to a statement that has no answer.

All I did was request that you post the "Should You Believe in the Trinity Pamphlet."

It's your official stuff. Are you embarrassed about the info in it?

 

[Wharton]

And we got and kept busy in the work Jesus commanded, namely the preaching "the good news of the kingdom" (Mt 24:14; 28:19,20) We did not give out.

Unfortunately for you, the truth does not change. It does not become refined into 'truthier.' Either you have it or you don't.

Your God lives in the Pleaides star system.

 

[Wharton]

The churches of Christendom en mass have quit preaching publicly and from house to house,

I think if you review church history that was done. But as we moved into the written age, more people could be reached with less resources via printed material. And now with the internet, even more are reached. What you need to learn is that humanity has moved from hearing to reading. We are a written word society. We remember most of what we read. We forget most of what we hear. Ask anyone what the sermon was about in church last week and you'll get no answer. Ask them about the last book they read and they'll tell you about it.

 

[Wharton]

It is not a doctrine but a belief. Nothing falls apart if it proves not to be true.

So you would not be disfellowshipped if you failed to uphold a belief that is not a doctrine? You could cover all bases by believing both ways?

 

[JM2C]

maybe you missed this in the article ''The reason the clause at the end of John 1:1 lacks the article deals with rules of Greek grammar. English uses word order to drive the meaning of a sentence. We almost always have subjects first, then verbs, then the objects is. Greek doesn't use word order to differentiate between types of nouns. They use word order for emphasis (Hebrew does the same thing). To tell the difference in the subject and the object (both of which are nouns), Greek uses case endings. They can then put the object of the verb at the beginning of the clause with the subject after the verb and still know what the sentence means.''

The predicate nominative in the 3rd clause is the word “theos/God” and the linking verb is the word “en/was” and the subject is the “ho logos/the Word”. Think of the linking verb “was/en” as an equal sign. Then it would read like this: “and the Word = God”

This was the question:

In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word wasa god.

This translation, the Jehovah's Witnesses New World Translation is, I think, unique in using the phrase"a god". All other translations use,"God", e.g., the text in theNASB, theNIVand theKJVisidentical:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word wasGod.

So, is there any justificationin the original textfor making Jesus merely,"a god"?

Now this is the answer:

Short answer: no. [Meaning no justification at all using the indefinite article “a” by the jw.]

 

[JM2C]

our kind of faith is balanced in the works we show.


Though this scripture is about setting monies aside for giving, the principle is applicable to all of our resources.

"For if the readiness is there first, it is especially acceptable according to what a person has, not according to what a person does not have." - 2 Corinthians 8:12

You know I was reading this chapter this morning. Paul was talking about equality in this chapter. How do we define the word “equality” in verse 14. Was Paul talking about the basic needs of the people or brothers in Jerusalem?

And then in verse 15

2Co 8:15 as it is written: “He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little.”

Do we do this today? Do we gather as much as we can because we don’t know the meaning of enough? Why almost all churches today are gathering enormous wealth if “he who gathered little did not have too little”? Basic needs? Equality?

 

[JM2C]

As regards the mud-slinging comment I made, It was because we keep rehashing the same arguments. I already recognize there will be no concord between you and me, and I keep thinking of 1 Timothy 6:4 and 2 Timothy 2:23. What comes after our reasonings are not accepted? Typically attacks.


"If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome (or "healthful; beneficial.") instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed (or "has an unhealthy fascination.") with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, (or "abusive speeches.") wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of [financial] gain." - 1 Timothy 6:3-5


"Further, reject foolish and ignorant debates, knowing that they produce fights. For a slave of the Lord does not need to fight, but needs to be gentle (or "tactful.") toward all, qualified to teach, showing restraint when wronged, instructing with mildness those not favorably disposed. Perhaps God may give them repentance (or "a change of mind.") leading to an accurate knowledge of truth." - 2 Timothy 2:23-25


I do not want to take our disagreement about the identity of Jesus to the point where I am slinging insults on you or you on me. Tact is a skill that takes time to develop. Meanwhile, we both have gone beyond the instructions found in these verses.


We do not need to force the truth on people. We share, but it is God that makes things grow as is seen in the last part of 2 Tim 2:25. What is important is not how many people listen to us, but our keeping busy in the work of the Lord.


"Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always having plenty to do in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in connection with the Lord." - 1 Corinthians 15:58

2Co 10:3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does.

2Co 10:4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

2Co 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

 

[JM2C]

James 2:14, 17-22, 24-26...."What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. " (NKJV)


Argue with James.


It is the faith that moves one to works. No works means your faith is dead.

Genesis 15:6 is before Genesis 22 or work in Genesis 22 is the byproduct of Faith in Genesis 15:6, or without Genesis 15:6, i.e., Faith, Work in Genesis 22 would not have taken place.

IOW, James was saying that work is the byproduct of faith on which Abraham was justified by God in Genesis 15:6. There was no disagreement between Paul’s and James’ epistle if you read it right.

Genesis 22 is the demonstration of Abraham’s faith in Genesis 15:6, the reality of his justification before God and this was not based on Abraham’s deeds.

It’s like one cannot be sanctified by the word of God if one is not truly justified. If one is truly justified by faith then one should produce work according to the will of the Father and that’s what Abraham did.

Jn 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth.

Jn 3:8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

You can see the trees are moving because of the wind but you cannot see the wind so as those who are born again, they were moved by the Holy Spirit, but you cannot see the Holy Spirit, but you can see the work of a born again person, and this work is according to the will of the Father, like Abraham, the byproduct of faith.

IOW, it’s NOT by faith +++ works but by faith alone a man can be justified.

 

[JM2C]

Hang onto your trinity if it makes you happy. Only God can tell you that he is "one Jehovah" (Deut 6:4) Only Jesus can tell you to worship Jehovah "alone" (Luke 4:8.)

Deuteronomy 6:4 "Jehovah our Elohim is one/echad-SH259 Jehovah"

Dt 6:4 shema` yisera'el yehvah 'eloheynu yehvah 'echad-SH259

The word “Elohim” being plural shows that God the Lord, is more than one, yet is "ONE/ECHAD-SH259 Jehovah". Echad-SH259: a united ONE, and not Yachid-SH3173: an only one.

Please do a research on these two words [echad-HS259 and yachid-HS3173] and you will be surprise that even Moses of the OT was a Trinitarian.