Can someone explain the Trinity please...

[Kenny]

Nice analogy...except it is flawed.

Angels do not have the assets of themselves, it is true, but God gave one specially chosen and trusted firstborn son, a bag of them to take with him as surety of the transaction. It was the ransom price for the liberation of mankind from sin and death. A perfect life, offered for a perfect life. Jesus' life atoned for the life Adam's sin stole from his children by disobedience.

It's called agency.

God has used his angelic agents all through history. Starting with his precious "firstborn", he brought all creation into existence "through" him. (Col 1:15, 16; John 1:2) He was the "beginning" of God's creation (Rev 3:14) and was used by the Father in bringing all other things into being. (Gen 1:26; Prov 8:30, 31)

Not once has the Father needed to do a thing "in person"...why would he? He is the Grand Creator and his servants do the will of the Father, always. They live to serve his interests and his purpose. They are not slaves but willing servants in the household of a very benevolent Master. They love him and it is their desire to serve him to the very best of their ability.....should we be any different?

This is a flawed position since Hebrews it clearly says that Jesus was better than the angels.

Not to mention that God did many things "in person". He walked with Adam... in person in the cool of the evening.

No problem with your statement that angels are willing servants.

The reason why God had to become a man was to not violate His dictates of Gen 1. Now He reigns as God and as Man in perfect alignment with His order

 

[JayJayDee]

This is a flawed position since Hebrews it clearly says that Jesus was better than the angels.

Hebrews 2:9....."But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." (NASB)

Did you mean this verse in Hebrews? Higher than angels?

Not to mention that God did many things "in person". He walked with Adam... in person in the cool of the evening.

Again, we see many instances where Jehovah is spoken of as appearing in person when it was an angelic representative that was doing the talking. "No man has ever seen God" (John 1:18) according to the apostle John. Yet you say they did. Does scripture contradict?

No problem with your statement that angels are willing servants. The reason why God had to become a man was to not violate His dictates of Gen 1. Now He reigns as God and as Man in perfect alignment with His order

What dictates of Gen 1 would that be. Where is the Father ever spoken of as "God and man"? I am interested to see where this idea is demonstrated in scripture.

 

[moorea944]

This is a flawed position since Hebrews it clearly says that Jesus was better than the angels.

Not to mention that God did many things "in person". He walked with Adam... in person in the cool of the evening.

No problem with your statement that angels are willing servants.

The reason why God had to become a man was to not violate His dictates of Gen 1. Now He reigns as God and as Man in perfect alignment with His order

Your version totally degrades our Creator! Your saying that God changed into a man? That he brought Himself down to our level? Absolutely not! Plus, no one, has seen God and anytime. Which means that it was an angel that God was working through when people saw Him.

Jesus was made lower than the angels at first, then was glorified and now is better than the angels.

 

[Kenny]

Your version totally degrades our Creator! Your saying that God changed into a man? That he brought Himself down to our level? Absolutely not! Plus, no one, has seen God and anytime. Which means that it was an angel that God was working through when people saw Him.

Jesus was made lower than the angels at first, then was glorified and now is better than the angels.

Absolutely. What love that God has for man that He would come down to our level and experience what we experience. No other King would do something like that.

He isn't some faraway and uncaring God, but one who understand completely mankind. What is man that He considers us? I don't know, but it sure is beautiful that He loves His creation, mankind.

Moses spoke to God face to face
Isaiah said "I saw the Lord, He was high and lifted up)
Samson too, I believe.

 

[Wharton]

Absolutely. What love that God has for man that He would come down to our level and experience what we experience. No other King would do something like that.

Moses spoke to God face to face
Isaiah said "I saw the Lord, He was high and lifted up)
Samson too, I believe.

Correct. Unless God has the experience of being man in all stages, from conception to death, he can not fairly judge humanity much less provide a ransom. You are going to be judged by a peer (Jesus) not by a transformer archangel, Michael.

 

[Kenny]

Hebrews 2:9....."But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." (NASB)

Did you mean this verse in Hebrews? Higher than angels?

It first starts before:

1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father " ? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son" ?

vs 5 states that he wasn't an angel.
vs 4 says he became superior to the angels because

2:9 we do see Him was made for a little while lower than the angels (emphasis mine) because he took our sins but then, as Jesus said, "Glorify myself with the glory that I held once with you" (paraphrased). In other words, when The Word took on flesh with the name of Jesus, in his receiving our sin, he became a little lower than the angels but then was seated back into the Godhead at the right hand of the Father greater than angels.

Angels were created to serve God and mankind.

Again, we see many instances where Jehovah is spoken of as appearing in person when it was an angelic representative that was doing the talking. "No man has ever seen God" (John 1:18) according to the apostle John. Yet you say they did. Does scripture contradict?

Not at all. John 1:18 is speaking of the Father.

What dictates of Gen 1 would that be. Where is the Father ever spoken of as "God and man"? I am interested to see where this idea is demonstrated in scripture.

That would be vs 26
26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

The moment He established that man had dominion, from that point on He established the law that to legally work in this world, it had to be through man. From that moment on, He worked by covenant with and through man.

Abraham saw that day when he said "God will provide himself a lamb".

i think it that the God, who is love, just gave us a beautiful love story. As a man must lay down his life for a woman, so God would do the same.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Hebrews 2:9....."But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone." (NASB)

Did you mean this verse in Hebrews? Higher than angels?

No, but that verse does connect with the specified verse in 1:4. In 1:4, we find τοσούτῳ κρείττων γενόμενος τῶν ἀγγέλων ὅσῳ διαφορώτερον παρ’ αὐτοὺς κεκληρονόμηκεν ὄνομα
["having become as far superior [compared] to the angels as [is] greater than theirs [his] inherited name"]
Unlike in 2:9, there are no qualifications here. Jesus is simply superior, and the only thing even akin to a qualification is that he is as superior to them as his name is greater than their names. In 2:9, we find something different: τὸν δὲ βραχύ τι παρ’ ἀγγέλους ἠλαττωμένον βλέπομεν Ἰησοῦν διὰ τὸ πάθημα τοῦ θανάτου δόξῃ καὶ τιμῇ ἐστεφανωμένον, ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου

["but now for a short time made lower than the angels through the suffering of death do we see Jesus crowned with glory and honor, so that by God's grace he might come to know death"]

Here, through to pathema tou thanatou/"the suffering of death", Jesus is made lesser/lower than the angels, only to be seen all the more glorious for having tasted/come to know death. In other words, it was an experience that Jesus went through which made him "lower" than the angels, not anything property or nature of Jesus himself. Moreover, it is merely temporary.

 

[Wharton]

Christendom has no line between the law of God and the commands of men. That is why Jesus will fail to recognize them on judgment day as his disciples. They say that they obey Christ, but do not follow through with actions. That is hypocrisy....the very thing Jesus castigated the Pharisees for. (Matt 7:21-23; 23:1-3, 13-32)

Christendom is not "Christian" in her attitudes or conduct, regardless of what she says. Talk is cheap. "By their fruits" Jesus said we would recognise his true disciples. What do Christendom's actions tell us? What do they tell Jesus, who will judge her?

Actually, the Borganization produces civil parasites that need others to provide security for them.

"In accordance with the resolution of Congress of April 2nd, and with the proclamation of the president of the United States of May 11, it is suggested that the Lord's people everywhere make May 30th a day of prayer and supplication. ... As says the spirit through the Apostle Paul: "I exhort, therefore, that first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour." (I Timothy 2:1-3) Let there be praise and thanks-giving to God for the promised glorious outcome of the war, the breaking of the shackles of autocracy, the freeing of the captives (Isaiah 61:1) and the making of the world safe for the common people--blessings all assured by the Word of God to the people of this country and of the whole world of mankind." Watchtower 1918 Jun 1 p.174

Yeah, yeah, I know the light is now shining brighter, as usual.

 

[cataway]

Watchtower 1918 Jun 1 p.174

your incredibly behind the times

 

[Wharton]

your incredibly behind the times

Truth has a date?

It seems to me that only in the WTO does truth have an expiration date.

 

[JayJayDee]

It first starts before:

1:4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father " ? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son" ?

vs 5 states that he wasn't an angel.
vs 4 says he became superior to the angels because

Can I just ask you....how does one who is fully God whilst being fully man become superior to angels and inherit a name superior to theirs? How can God become lower than angels to begin with? And how can he be given a name that is superior to what he already has? How can an immortal God die?

Jesus is no mere angel. He is a spirit being, the only one to be brought into existence by God's own hand. He is "only begotten" in the sense that no other being was a direct creation of the Father. All other creation came into existence "through" the Word who existed "in the beginning" with God. (John 1:2) This makes the Word a creation who was the "beginning" of everything. The eternal Father had no beginning. Whereas Jesus is said to be "the beginning of the creation of/by God." (Rev 3:14)

2:9 we do see Him was made for a little while lower than the angels (emphasis mine) because he took our sins but then, as Jesus said, "Glorify myself with the glory that I held once with you" (paraphrased). In other words, when The Word took on flesh with the name of Jesus, in his receiving our sin, he became a little lower than the angels but then was seated back into the Godhead at the right hand of the Father greater than angels.

Where does it say that the Word was seated back into the godhead? I must have missed that part of scripture.....

He was indeed seated at God's right hand......but can you show me one scripture that has the Holy Spirit on his left? No threesome = no trinity.

If John 1:1 is proof of the trinity...then again, one equal part of the "godhead" is missing.
At John 17:3, Jesus identifies his Father as "the only true God" and then he mentions himself as a separate entity. So again, where is your trinity?.....no Holy Spirit is mentioned and Jesus did not include himself as God.

Angels were created to serve God and mankind.

Well, they were at first created only to serve God, seeing as how they existed before we did. They have played a major role in serving as Jehovah's messengers, relaying his word and instructions to his human servants. At no time was God ever said to become human. Angels were his messengers and spokesmen.

Not at all. John 1:18 is speaking of the Father.

No it isn't. If you look at a few other translations, (especially those biased towards the trinity like the KJV) you will see that in John 1:18, they have rendered it "only begotten Son" rather than "monogenes theos" which is "only begotten god". This is talking about the Word, who was "theos" (a god) not "ho theos" (THE God).

That would be vs 26
26Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

The moment He established that man had dominion, from that point on He established the law that to legally work in this world, it had to be through man. From that moment on, He worked by covenant with and through man.

I am not sure what you mean. When God said "let us make man in our image" he was not talking to himself. According to Prov 8:30, 31 he was speaking to his "master craftsman" who was working alongside his Father in creation. (Col 1;15, 16)

Abraham saw that day when he said "God will provide himself a lamb".

i think it that the God, who is love, just gave us a beautiful love story. As a man must lay down his life for a woman, so God would do the same.

Well, I don't know that a man is necessarily obligated to lay down his life for a woman, but the lesson in Abraham's case was pictorial of a father willingly sacrificing his son because of unquestioning obedience to the one who asked it of him. This man had a faith like no other.

Isaac was the 'only begotten son' who pictured Jesus as the willing victim. He was a young man at the time Abraham was asked to sacrifice him on the alter, and Abraham was very old. If the son had been unwilling, he could easily have overpowered his father and left the scene.

Abraham got all the way to putting the knife to Isaac's throat when God stopped him. Then he provided the ram as a sacrifice. (Heb 11:17-19)
Abraham's faith was unquestioning, the same as when he was told to leave his comfortable home and become a tent-dwelling nomad...he did exactly that. No questions asked. No thought of personal comfort, just absolute faith in his God and "friend".
We can only hope to have a relationship like that with our Father.

 

[JayJayDee]

your incredibly behind the times

LOL.....ancient history is all he has. We have moved on but Christendom is still stuck in her man-made, centuries old, rut. It isn't that she doesn't know....but that she doesn't care. It would put egg on her face to admit she has misled people into false worship...so long ago that people do not question. No excuse now though. The truth is out there and everyone has to make up their own minds about it. The last days are coming to their end. (Matt 24:2-14)

 

[Wharton]

LOL.....ancient history is all he has. We have moved on but Christendom is still stuck in her man-made, centuries old, rut. It isn't that she doesn't know....but that she doesn't care. It would put egg on her face to admit she has misled people into false worship...so long ago that people do not question. No excuse now though. The truth is out there and everyone has to make up their own minds about it. The last days are coming to their end. (Matt 24:2-14)

You've moved from one lie to the next and you're all too blind to see, or just don't want to see, that the FDS serves food with an expiration date.

 

[Kenny]

Can I just ask you....how does one who is fully God whilst being fully man become superior to angels and inherit a name superior to theirs? How can God become lower than angels to begin with? And how can he be given a name that is superior to what he already has? How can an immortal God die?

Those are good questions.

I think first we need to remember that God is God and He can do anything He wants.

Second, we don't have a good concept or definition of what death really is. Death isn't when we stop breathing but rather death is a separation from the God of life. When Adam sinned He was separated from God.

I AM is not a name but rather a descriptive title. I AM RAPHA, I AM NISSI, I AM SHALOM etc simply describe God in His position. The eternally existing one who reveals Himself as Healer, Victor (banner), Peace, Righteousness, etc.

When The Word filled flesh, He became the second Adam. He was above all the angels and above death. The only time death has a claim is when one sins thus no one could take His life, He gave it. Jesus was sinless. When He became sin (II Cor 5:21), when He was made our sin He became a little lower than the angels who have no sin. He didn't cease to exist (although his body did die) but there was a brief moment of separation from the Godhead. However, the Holy Spirit resurrected Jesus, because there was no legal right for Death to have a hold on Him for He Himself had never sinned, His name became the name above every name that at His name every knee would bow and confess.

In a very simplistic way of looking at it... when you die, you are separated from your body, but your body will be resurrected. It didn't mean you don't exist.

Jesus is no mere angel. He is a spirit being, the only one to be brought into existence by God's own hand.

I disagree. Hebrews specifically says he wasn't an angel. God's Holy Spirit also proceeds from the Father but He is no less part of God. No different than your soul is part of your spirit and your body is part of you.

He is "only begotten" in the sense that no other being was a direct creation of the Father. All other creation came into existence "through" the Word who existed "in the beginning" with God. (John 1:2)

I would disagree. In that The Word, which existed before the body was created as God, was made flesh. In that He was made flesh, He was the Only Begotten.

This makes the Word a creation who was the "beginning" of everything. The eternal Father had no beginning. Whereas Jesus is said to be "the beginning of the creation of/by God." (Rev 3:14)

That can also be understood that he was the author of the beginning of the creation.

Where does it say that the Word was seated back into the godhead? I must have missed that part of scripture.....

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was

Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying , Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

He was indeed seated at God's right hand......but can you show me one scripture that has the Holy Spirit on his left? No threesome = no trinity.

Nice try but no cigar.

John 14:
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance , whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Spirit is the part of God you are communicating with, is around you and everywhere. He is the one who is trying to teach you, give you the things that the Father has given the Son and show you things to come.

Perhaps it is the Bride of Christ that will sit on the left? Or maybe it is just your theology that says there has to be a seat on the left?

 

[moorea944]

Correct. Unless God has the experience of being man in all stages, from conception to death, he can not fairly judge humanity much less provide a ransom. You are going to be judged by a peer (Jesus) not by a transformer archangel, Michael.

Do you guys actually understand what your saying? God, who created man, has to come down, change Himself from a God, into a man, just to experience what we go through because He doesnt know? Wow, I'm glad my God isnt like that....

God was working through His son to reconcile the world unto Himself. What does that mean to you?..... God does not come down to earth, he does it "through" angels, Jesus, prophets. Angels are His fingers as the scriptures tell us. They also carry God's name, so doesnt Jesus. Scripture also tells us that someday we will carry God's name too.

 

[moorea944]

In a very simplistic way of looking at it... when you die, you are separated from your body, but your body will be resurrected. It didn't mean you don't exist.

Actually it does... The bible tells us basically, when we are dead, we cease to exist. Period. We are dead until the resurrection. That's why Paul tells us that we have hope in the resurrection. He never mentions heaven going. Can you give us a verse that tells us that we are separted at death?

 

[Kenny]

Do you guys actually understand what your saying? God, who created man, has to come down, change Himself from a God, into a man, just to experience what we go through because He doesnt know? Wow, I'm glad my God isnt like that....

God was working through His son to reconcile the world unto Himself. What does that mean to you?..... God does not come down to earth, he does it "through" angels, Jesus, prophets. Angels are His fingers as the scriptures tell us. They also carry God's name, so doesnt Jesus. Scripture also tells us that someday we will carry God's name too.

Not so much because He doesn't know, but because He established that to operate legally and exercise dominion and subdue, it had to be a man.

In that He became man, He does know but He didn't come just to know, He came to redeem and take back the dominion that Adam gave to the serpent.

Yes, angels are His and prophets do speak on His behalf, but now He has spoken directly through Jesus Christ. No intermediaries but directly.

 

[Kenny]

Actually it does... The bible tells us basically, when we are dead, we cease to exist. Period. We are dead until the resurrection. That's why Paul tells us that we have hope in the resurrection. He never mentions heaven going. Can you give us a verse that tells us that we are separted at death?

Hardly.

Jesus mentioned that the beggar Lazarus is quite alive. In the book of Revelation, it speaks of those who died a martyrs death that are quite alive worshipping waiting for the time of the coming of Jesus.

So... no, the body is dead but the spirit and soul are quite alive.

 

[cataway]

Jesus mentioned that the beggar Lazarus is quite alive

that was a parable

 

[Unification]

Do you guys actually understand what your saying? God, who created man, has to come down, change Himself from a God, into a man, just to experience what we go through because He doesnt know? Wow, I'm glad my God isnt like that....

God was working through His son to reconcile the world unto Himself. What does that mean to you?..... God does not come down to earth, he does it "through" angels, Jesus, prophets. Angels are His fingers as the scriptures tell us. They also carry God's name, so doesnt Jesus. Scripture also tells us that someday we will carry God's name too.

Well said. Messengers of light. Knowledge of God. Revealing knowledge of God, in other words- words spoken by God to man.

It's just better we be made humble and brought low, and have much humility, you know... So those evil messengers of mental torment aren't sent to destroy us to the point we have no choice but to turn to God. Skipping the prison of mental hell and destruction of flesh is a much better route.