Can the Abstract version of Islam be proven by philosophical reasoning?

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12ver Shiism to me is the case for Ahlulbayt of Adam (peace be upon them) -> (fast forward) -> Family of Ibrahim (peace be upon them) --> Household of Musa and Haroun (peace upon them) --> House of Taha (Ali) and Yaseen (Mohammad) (peace be upon them).

It's always been the religion to submit to God through his door(s).

Revelation from God (scripture) + family of that reminder = rope of God.

If not Mohammad (s), then someone else would be the founder of a guidance from God.

But a book from God + an Ahlulbayt from God is proven by reasoning to me.

Thus the abstract form of religion proven by reasoning, I find, also that there is only one current possible instance of it (Quran + Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s)).

But instead of looking at the details of the instance of religion and dealing with edge cases. I am going to be proving it's super structure and abstract form from reasoning.

I'm not going to be saying because Quran says so, it's true, rather, I'm going to be showing the reasoning of Quran as to why:

There needs to be revelation from God AND
There needs to be a chosen group known as the mystic family chosen by God in all times (there is always such a group of chosen sent ones)
These two combined make the rope of God.

I'm not saying Quran says so, so it's true. I'm saying the reasoning Quran shows for sending such a form of guidance proves:

(1) The abstract form of Islam is correct religion

Then I will talk why I believe Quran + Ahlulbayt of Mohammad (s) are that hard instance of the abstract archetype of the religion (2).

Most people are confused Quran distinguishes between the two, but they are in another sense interchangeable. Since (2) is a hard instance of (1).


Here I'm going to ignoring the hard copy. So we won't look at Quran being a miracle and why. However, the claim it is a miracle is important since the abstract religion would emphasize on scripture as a proof.

This is reasoning that will show the proper religion even if we lived in a time when Mohammad (s) was not sent yet.

This is what this thread is about, the abstract archetype form.

I believe when you recognize this form, you can recognize a particular instance of it, which differ to each other slightly in form, but over all, same structure (has features always same + some features differ depending on circumstance, time, place).

 

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Reflection (1):

God is absolute, so how can we connect to him? The connection and what is, is known as the means to him. Light in the heart is needed to perceive words from God which would be endless in guidance. But if we are in darkness, how would properly see the light?

This where we need message and reminders from warning and tiding givers from God. We need to awaken.

A recitation from God can help in this regard, but can it suffice? Again, that is to say can words itself ignite the light without a living light?

To me, there needs to be a living reminder a long with the written reminder. The written reminder would remind of the living light and the living light would utilize and remind by written reminder.

Why is this the case? Again, what is the written reminder for? To remind. Remind of what, the connection. The connection is a living light connecting the chain hearts to the absolute.

Since this a story of darkness and light. It's about making to the light and away from darkness.

But as this is a story of light and darkness and the way out of the darkness to the light and light upon light, we need to prove these things are reality.

Thus my next reflection will be about light and darkness, good and evil, and the path towards ascending to God.

 

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Reflection (2)

The path of light must be build on light. What is light but connection to God in some way? The power towards God is also sight of God. Thus goodness helps ascend towards God. This is belief in unseen.

But to prove darkness and light. We have to talk about lower pleasure and higher pleasures. Higher pleasures come from moral acts, often, in sacrifice of lower pleasures. That is, help the needy and poor, and spend of that wealth that gives us lower pleasures, but will not make us higher in God's eyes.

It can be seen that evil is result of chaotic energy and impulsive that is irrational and ignorant.

To spend time reflecting and attempting to see God, takes time away from pleasures, but is praiseworthy.

But aside from this, it's about belief in unseen. Unseen heart can see there is energy and motivation that is chaotic, dark, and impulsive. It's the source of ignorance and remaining it. This can be seen to be source of actions that divert people away from seeking God and pleasing him. This is known as the dirty word or dirty tree.

But calling to us, in midst of that, is control, discipline and love of God and helping the cause of goodness.

But as our vision is blurred, we need mental clarity as to what guides and misguides. More over, God is One and Absolute, and hence, there is while many versions and instances of that path, one real path to him, and that is directing ourselves to him.

Thus a door of light is needed to walk by, and we must walk upon it, so as to not walk away or running away from God.

This brings us to the notion expressed in Surah Nahl:

"And upon God is to guide the way, and from it is the misleading (ways), and if he wished, he would have guided you all together".

This brings also to the next notion, who is more worthy or capable (if not the only one capable) of guiding us to the truth of which people differ and dispute but God? Since we are not all guided and dispute and differ, what is the refuge and how can we know?

To me there needs to be a clear path and proof from God hence as it's upon him to guide the way.

 

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Reflection (3)

Where will we go? If not towards God where are we going?

Yet so many claim to represent him and his teachings, and hence, this brings this point. God guides to the truth and hence his guidance is what we should hold on to.

To do that, there need to be proof. God is capable of proving who to follow and can provide signs of who or what to follow.

To settle to follow those without proof as opposed to those with proof, would be foolishness indeed. God the creator, would not leave us aimless and without direction.

 

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Reflection (4)

God can provide words from him that would heal. So why would he not? The assumption that God can't layer all his guidance in limited words doesn't understand the nature of the endless guidance is possible by Creator through endless looping of a book within a book.

Indeed a book that iterates itself with respect to itself, would be a book opening doors by it's own doors, which further open doors. While it's not possible for normal humans to write endless words of guidance that connect from lowest to God in an endless journey and open endless gates of knowledge and wisdom, indeed, the creator can do this, by designing the book to iterate itself with respect to itself.

That is, it passes itself to itself. If the book is designed like that, we would be really be able to be mislead with respect to it. Thus also along with that, a need of interpreters who know it's proper path and don't swerve from it.

This is why a group of interpreters chosen by God would be needed. And thus we see the wisdom that books are not just dropped from the sky by God, but come along with them is human leaders to compliment it. Their messages are important and compliment the divine revelations.

They with their calculations of hearts of humanity and the doors that open other doors, can calculate their words to unveil this endless guidance from God and help us in it's guidance.

Thus we see why God accompanies his revelations with wise chosen humans. Consequently, it makes sense, to avoid complications of delegation, these humans are also the channel of light and light that holy books remind of.

As there are misleading ways with respect to interpretation and the path, they would be a refuge from misguidance with respect to it.

 

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Reflection (5)

The most knowledgeable and capable of establish just government and justice would be these people with the help of God's revelations.

Thus we see obedience to them political wise, makes sense, along with spiritual obedience. In fact, justice and caring for it, is part of being spiritual.

Thus we see the need of anointed kings by God and these particularly would be the same as those chosen for his spiritual guidance.

The two intertwined (spirituality + politics), the believers also need to respond and try to help humans with respect to both.

Consequently, putting a chosen human on all times, would mean we have no reason not to come to God's King and establish justice.

Thus this would be an establishment of a refuge for humanity to come to God and justice in all times and pick the best human who has clear proofs for his justice.

If this leader is hidden, still, humanity is called to accept him, and the argument from God established on humans.

 

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Reflection (6)

Guidance is needed for love as love iterates itself. A love that values based on truth, thus, would be connecting and iterating itself towards truth and God. A love that values based on falsehood would in time be diverted from God's path and love that which opposes it.

Thus a guidance from God that endlessly iterates light upon light is needed for love to be guided and value on truth. Love that equate darkness with light and is diverted from God and doesn't approach him, is mislead away from God and diverted from the true God.

God needs to build a name for himself and connect to himself through it. Without that connection and guidance with respect to it, we would be mislead away from God and iterate false eyes of love with falsehood and be immersed in it.

The name of God and it's living (light and guide) and written form of it (revelation) is necessary hence for love to have it's true purpose. Love that doesn't value on truth will value on falsehood. And thus lose it's purpose to value and attach itself to the REAL.

 

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Reflection (7)

God is a magical being. Thus the true nature of existence is a magical nature. True sustenance and power from would be the truth. God capable of giving intense power through his sustenance, the higher exalted chosen ones, would be of immense power. They would be unmatched by sustenance from falsehood of evil creation or misguided creation.

While the latter would have some powers, they would be no where near God's exalted and chosen. God organizing creation, would have his chosen Angels and chosen humans of a lot more immensity in power. That and God's path ascending in power would augment true power with true power while falsehood away from God would be insignificant in power.

Aside from the falsehood and needing to seek refuge in the chosen ones for truth. They would be a means out of dark sorcery upon us and a means to be filled with true power and energy from God.

Hence, the way Quran ends, with the two chapters it ends with, has a wisdom. Not saying this is true cause Quran says so. But this wisdom and it's emphasis is proven by reasoning.

 

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Reflection (8)

To limit amount of false claims to succession, God makes blood part of it's equation. While blood doesn't mean you succeed, it's a necessary requirement that the chosen from God will be blood related or else God is allowing to many false claimants to possibly claim it.

The second notion is that these people on mission ascend together, are in the sky together as a refuge and hence a mystic family closer to each other and hence termed an Ahlulbayt with others related by blood not included. This is rational because they are on a next level and they are closer to each other beyond just blood but with respect to the religion and their mission to guide humans and their ascension towards God occurs together.

God out of his wisdom would make them ascend together, so as to consider them all equally important. He would not want us to distinguish between the 2nd and 3rd or see 11th less significant then the 12th for example.

The last reasonable notion, is that he would make each preceding ahlulbayt an example of the current one. And thus the past Ahlulbayts it make sense, they would all need a number with respect to succession. And so to emphasize on that number, it makes more wise and reasonable sense the number is consistent in all times.

Inconsistency would mean there is no wisdom in the number nor universality and that God is chaotically all over the place with his guidance.

Thus we see the number that has consistency and emphasis has to be one and same with past to future with respect to succession.

Thus the concept of an Ahlulbayt and consistency in that is proven.

 

[Eyes to See]

12ver Shiism to me is the case for Ahlulbayt of Adam (peace be upon them) -> (fast forward) -> Family of Ibrahim (peace be upon them) --> Household of Musa and Haroun (peace upon them) --> House of Taha (Ali) and Yaseen (Mohammad) (peace be upon them).

It's always been the religion to submit to God through his door(s).

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Greetings Link. I did read through your thread, although I wanted to point something out to you in the title itself. What is philosophy? The word comes from Greek phi·lo·so·phiʹa, and means "love of wisdom." Now there are entire schools of philosophy which you can dedicate your time and effort into studying wherein the philosophers try to understand and relate why we are here, and the whole of existence, the underlying cause and principles of reality.

In in the first century in the Bible we are even given a glimpse into the philosophical world at that time as the first century congregation formed and spread and ran into the schools of thought of “the Epicurean and the Stoic philosophers.” (Acts 17:18.) Perhaps you are familiar with these schools of thought? Many other philosophical branches have stemmed from these schools. And in fact philosophical teachings of Plato and Aristotle seeped their way into the Christian congregation corrupting the first couple centuries after Jesus died. And if you read in the scripture those philosophers considered the apostle Paul a "chatterer" someone who was just picking up knowledge and disseminating it haphazardly, without reason.

But in philosophy you cannot come to know God. It is after all human wisdom. And God's wisdom is far above that of humankind. True, we can get a tiny glimpse into the mind of God by studying the cosmos - the universe, and world around us. But there are many things that could never be answered by studying these things. It cannot peer into the supernatural where God exists and from whence all things come. Hence philosophy ultimately is a futile endeavor and will never lead to real enlightenment. And thus trying to explain God in philosophical terms is impossible.

The Bible tells us that philosophy is actually the empty speech of men, falsely called knowledge: "Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, turning away from the empty speeches that violate what is holy and from the contradictions of the falsely called “knowledge."-1 Timothy 6:20.

Now there are two things. The philosophy, wisdom of this world, and its "wise ones" and there is the wisdom of God. Paul studied at the feet of Gamaliel as a Pharisee in Tarsus, he received the best education possible at his time. Tarsus was no unknown place. It was world-renowned in its time as a center of learning and education. It is little wonder then that before he was known as Paul he was known as Saul of Tarsus.

Now what does Paul tell us of all of the "higher education" he received at the feet of the most educated men of his day? They say that after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 C. E. Gamaliel helped mold the form of Judaism that is even practiced up till today. Some say that Paul may have succeeded Gamaliel if he continued in studies and his path he was on. Yet what did Paul think of all of the higher education the world had to offer, the schools of philosophy of men? He counted all of it as a lot of refuse on account of the knowledge of Christ:

"What is more, I do indeed also consider all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have taken the loss of all things and I consider them as a lot of refuse, that I may gain Christ."-Philippians 3:8.

Now herein lies a sacred secret of God. God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put the wise things to shame. He has chosen the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame. And he has chosen the insignificant things of the world, and the things looked down upon, to to bring to nothing the things that are.

Do you understand?

What is the foolish thing in the world if not Jesus Christ preached? The world and the empty philosophies of its wise men reject the Christ preached - they mock and ridicule the good news of the Christ and of his kingdom. But aside from the knowledge of the Christ there is no real knowledge:

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing."-1 Corinthians 1:21.

Bible truths that lead us to God and to salvation are amazingly simple. But the intellectual of the world reject them. And thus a weak thing of God is greater than a strong thing of man:

"Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men." -1 Corinthians 1:25.

"For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.”Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish?" vs 19, 20.

Now why does the world not get to know God? Because God in his wisdom has hid himself from them. And God is pleased to save those who believe in Jesus Christ, who believe in the "foolishness" in the world's eyes:

"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing." v 21.

So really where is true wisdom found Link? It is with God. And in his word the Bible. It is in the gospel of Jesus Christ, the son of God, the Savior of the world:

"We preach Christ executed on the stake, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness.However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God."- vs 23, 24.

You are correct Jehovah God, (Jehovah is the name of Allah) has given his us chosen one, his Messiah, his Christ. And his truth is found in the Bible. Anything that comes after the message of the good news recorded for us about the Christ is cursed, even if a chosen one or even an angel from heaven would come afterward to contradict the good news of the Christ:

"Even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to you as good news something beyond the good news we declared to you, let him be accursed."-Galatians 1:8.

The good news that is declared in the Bible and expounded upon by the apostle Paul is not of human origin:

"The good news I declared to you is not of human origin; for neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it was through a revelation by Jesus Christ."-Galatians 1:12.

To all that hear the word of truth in the Bible and drink of its its free waters of truth is granted everlasting life.

 

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Salam

@Eyes to See

I understand if you see no philosophical proof for your religion in the Divine books, you will, resort to saying we should just take it on faith. To me faith, is sight of God and his true religion, through signs. This include witnessing light by the heart, but also, reasoning that makes you believe in Messengers and Divine books.

I think Bible talks about structure of the guides after Abraham, as not just story of the past, but that it shows God's way of guiding humans.

I would agree with you Christianity has no philosophical proofs, but to me, God's religion is proven through reason.

So let's go back before Christianity. What proves God's religion before Jesus (a) came?

Surely, Guides like Abraham (a) are the proper way to know God. But Abraham (a) doesn't come alone but is later succeeded by likes of Joseph (a).

The problem with Christianity, is that it makes Jesus (a) Unique and doesn't just seem him as one of the chosen from Successors of Moses (a).

This is why Quran says don't distinguish between Messengers, because it all goes haywire, the religion, when you over emphasize on one but ignore importance of the others.

Quran emphasizes on Haroun (a) (Aaron) as being equally important to Moses (a), and not say the founder is for example higher or more important then his successor. This is because the point of the chosen ones is so we submit to God and travel towards God.

They are his light and means to him, but the goal is God.

The problem with Christianity, is that it takes one of God's chosen and makes a whole religion out of interpreting his words to be all about him in particular. When I read the gospels, I see Jesus (a) is emphasizing his position as one of the exalted ones, and the praised/comforter one to come is clear to me. And holy spirit is over mystified, when really, it's the position of his chosen kings to be the holy spirit of that time. They are with every soul, by their light and also witness them and provide them judgment from God with respect to who they are.

The Quran shows Adam's (a) creed, is same as Abraham's (a) same as Moses' (a). And the branches of guidance after the founder, are just as important. Because guidance is the goal.

If you make it all about redemption through one human, sure, you can't prove a particular instance through an overall archetype religion.

Abraham (a) and guidance in his chosen successors, that resembles more Shiite Islam and not Christianity. So you have to make it all about faith and not reasoning, for sure, because it's inconsistent with the past and can't have universal archetype form.

Same with Sunnism, it's all about companions of Mohammad (s) and generation that supposedly followed them (really killed them and took them as slaves, but that's a topic for another thread), when God's way in Quran is always through an Ahlulbayt of chosen ones.

Shiism thus is consistent Islam of the past, while Sunnism is making an inconsistent way of God with religion, something he has not done ever.

 

[mangalavara]

There needs to be revelation from God AND
There needs to be a chosen group known as the mystic family chosen by God in all times

Although I am not Muslim, I have always suspected that the original intent was Qur'an plus Ahlul Bayt. Even the supplication in the Sunni version of Salat involves asking God to bless the family of Muhammad just as God had blessed the family of Abraham. If Ahlul Bayt is not one of the Two Weighty Things, why recite that supplication at least five times a day til the Judgment?

 

[Eyes to See]

Salam

@Eyes to See
I understand if you see no philosophical proof for your religion in the Divine books, you will, resort to saying we should just take it on faith. To me faith, is sight of God and his true religion, through signs. This include witnessing light by the heart, but also, reasoning that makes you believe in Messengers and Divine books.

I think Bible talks about structure of the guides after Abraham, as not just story of the past, but that it shows God's way of guiding humans.

I would agree with you Christianity has no philosophical proofs, but to me, God's religion is proven through reason.

So let's go back before Christianity. What proves God's religion before Jesus (a) came?

Surely, Guides like Abraham (a) are the proper way to know God. But Abraham (a) doesn't come alone but is later succeeded by likes of Joseph (a).

The problem with Christianity, is that it makes Jesus (a) Unique and doesn't just seem him as one of the chosen from Successors of Moses (a).

This is why Quran says don't distinguish between Messengers, because it all goes haywire, the religion, when you over emphasize on one but ignore importance of the others.

Quran emphasizes on Haroun (a) (Aaron) as being equally important to Moses (a), and not say the founder is for example higher or more important then his successor. This is because the point of the chosen ones is so we submit to God and travel towards God.

They are his light and means to him, but the goal is God.

The problem with Christianity, is that it takes one of God's chosen and makes a whole religion out of interpreting his words to be all about him in particular. When I read the gospels, I see Jesus (a) is emphasizing his position as one of the exalted ones, and the praised/comforter one to come is clear to me. And holy spirit is over mystified, when really, it's the position of his chosen kings to be the holy spirit of that time. They are with every soul, by their light and also witness them and provide them judgment from God with respect to who they are.

The Quran shows Adam's (a) creed, is same as Abraham's (a) same as Moses' (a). And the branches of guidance after the founder, are just as important. Because guidance is the goal.

If you make it all about redemption through one human, sure, you can't prove a particular instance through an overall archetype religion.

Abraham (a) and guidance in his chosen successors, that resembles more Shiite Islam and not Christianity. So you have to make it all about faith and not reasoning, for sure, because it's inconsistent with the past and can't have universal archetype form.

Same with Sunnism, it's all about companions of Mohammad (s) and generation that supposedly followed them (really killed them and took them as slaves, but that's a topic for another thread), when God's way in Quran is always through an Ahlulbayt of chosen ones.

Shiism thus is consistent Islam of the past, while Sunnism is making an inconsistent way of God with religion, something he has not done ever.

Salam alekom.


God's word calls human philosophy the empty deception of men. And the wisest thing of this world is mere foolishness with God. When you say I just take it on "faith", you are implying a definition to the word the Bible does not give it. For faith is the assured expectation of realities that can be proven yet cannot be seen:

"Faith is the assured expectation of what is hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities that are not seen."-Hebrew 11:1.

God does not need man's wisdom. As he himself says:

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah.
“For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So my ways are higher than your ways
And my thoughts than your thoughts.
-Isaiah 55:8, 9.

Do you consider the good news of the Christ as foolishness? The foolishness is what is saving those who believe. It is even as Jesus Christ said in prayer to Jehovah God:

“I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. 26 Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. 27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one fully knows the Son except the Father; neither does anyone fully know the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son is willing to reveal him."-Matthew 11:25-27.

Should Jehovah God still not be praised that he has hidden himself from the so-called intellectuals of the world who refuse to believe in his word, and yet has revealed himself to the little children who love his word and the truth?

I realize that Isalm teaches Jesus was no more than a mere man and a prophet. But that is not what the Bible teaches. Are you willing to study God's word and see why we can have confidence that Jesus really is God's son?

 

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Alaikom as-Salam

@Eyes to See, God's wisdom is higher than humans, as that is part of the reason we should trust in him, but this doesn't mean we can't reason to know truth about his religion. Also, people who reject God's guidance can make all sorts of their own reasoning and arrogance sometimes is seen as intellectual, so maybe those verses are more aimed at that.

Christianity can't have Archetype religion nor Judaism because they emphasize on anomaly with respect to themselves, rather, then emphasize and believe in a structure that is consistent in all times.

Judaism emphasizes on themselves as a chosen people to represent God's teachings and Christians emphasize on Jesus on the means to redemption, what was God's religion then before his "chosen people" and what was his religion before "Jesus". That you have to make a different religion than that which is consistent with Shiite Islam, but not consistent with Christianity or Judaism.

What is the religion of Ibrahim? This is the religion in all times. What is the religion of Noah, that is the religion in all times.

It's same. Branches of Ibrahim such as Jacob and Joseph, such Isaac and Ishmael, these are God's way of guiding humans.

Make it all about a particular different philosophy not consistent with the past, than yes, you can't reason philosophically because then there is no Archetype religion consistent in all times.

 

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Although I am not Muslim, I have always suspected that the original intent was Qur'an plus Ahlul Bayt. Even the supplication in the Sunni version of Salat involves asking God to bless the family of Muhammad just as God had blessed the family of Abraham. If Ahlul Bayt is not one of the Two Weighty Things, why recite that supplication at least five times a day til the Judgment?

This is true, maybe, I should make a thread about the Salawat. It's a good point you bring.