metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't, but most Christians that I know, regardless of denomination, do believe many are already in heaven.
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Can the Living Pray for the Dead & Vice Versa?
- Thread starter metis
- Start date
I certainly visited... sad i had a task so was returned.
ukok102nak
Active Member
~;> perhaps this verses could help
if we may say so
as it is written
:read:
John 15:12
"This is my commandment, that you love one another, even as I have loved you.
13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
14 You are my friends, if you do whatever I command you.
15 No longer do I call you servants, for the servant does not know what his lord does. But I have called you friends, for everything that I heard from my Father, I have made known to you.
16 You did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain; that whatever you will ask of the Father in my name, he may give it to you.
17 "I command these things to you, that you may love one another.
18 If the world hates you, you know that it has hated me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. But because you are not of the world, since I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.
20 Remember the word that I said to you: 'A servant is not greater than his lord.'
If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they kept my word, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do to you for my name's sake, because they do not know him who sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have had sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin.
23 He who hates me, hates my Father also.
24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have had sin. But now have they seen and also hated both me and my Father.
25 But this happened so that the word may be fulfilled which was written in their law, 'They hated me without a cause.'
:ty:
godbless
unto all always
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Sorry, but I do not see the word "heaven" in any of those verses. It says Jesus calls people His brothers but does not say they go to heaven.
Care to prove that people go to heaven before Judgment by book, chapter and verse?
I agree, no one goes to Heaven until after the Judgment.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
And what did Jesus say to the man on the cross next to him that repented, shava?
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
That's not what your Bible says, shava. See above. And on top of that, how in the world could you possibly know the above?
lostwanderingsoul
Well-Known Member
Jesus did not use the word heaven. He said the thief would be in paradise which is usually described as a place on earth like the garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were in paradise. Also, Jesus did not go to heaven the same day He died. Forty days later He told the disciples not to touch Him because He had not yet ascended to heaven. So the thief could not have been with Jesus in heaven the same day he died because Jesus was not in heaven until later. After the judgement a new earth will come down from heaven and Jesus will rule there. There is nothing about anyone going to heaven even after the judgement. The Lord's Prayer says that when God's kingdom comes, His will will be done ON EARTH. Man's future is to rule with Jesus on earth in God's kingdom.
He said Paradise, which is referred to as Abraham's bosom, not heaven. Paradise is in the hadean realm where all disembodied spirits go until judgment.
Luke 16:19-31New King James Version (NKJV)
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19 “There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fella]'>[a] from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. 26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.’
27 “Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’ 29 Abraham said to him, ‘They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’ 30 And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”
Paradise is in Hades, that is in the realm of the dead. As Jesus died on the cross, he told the thief, "And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."" (Luke 23:43). Yet, Peter quoted the Old Testament to explain that Jesus did not remain in Hades. "For You will not leave my soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption" (Acts 2:27). Therefore, we conclude that Paradise is a region in Hades. This is supported by the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16:22-23). Torments is another region in Hades and in this description, Abraham's bosom appears to be another name for Paradise.
2 Peter 3:10 disagrees with your claim, as it says, King James Bible
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
- (Psalm 104:5) - "He established the earth upon its foundations, So that it will not totter forever and ever."
- (Ecclesiastes 1:4) - "A generation goes and a generation comes, but the earth remains forever."
- Does not abide forever
- (Isaiah 65:17) - "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former things shall not be remembered or come to mind."
- (2 Peter 3:10) - "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up."
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11Since all these things are to be destroyed in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells," (2 Peter 3:10-13).
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Complete unadulterated nonsense, and yet you say you believe in the Bible and yet come back with "proof" that's no where to be found in the Bible. And to show how absolutely off-the-wall the above is, where do you think Jesus went, shava, because that's where he said the man on the cross was going to be as well?
Non-biblical stories and distortions you believe in, as in the above, and yet you continue to claim you believe in the Bible. You're only fooling yourself. Let me suggest that you find a church that actually doesn't teach nonsense like the above, and there's quite a few of them for you to select from. If there are any Mennonite churches in your area, you might check them out, for just one example-- and a good one, I might add.
Are you aware you referenced not one time with book, chapter and verse, as you gave a baseless assumption of your own opinion which is worthless when proving what the scriptures say on a subject, and I gave book, chapter and verse to prove my claim, and you have the audacity to say that my claim is unadulterated nonsense, pitiful.
You should have read what I wrote instead of just commenting your opinion. What bible do you use? There's no mention of a Mennonite church in the bible, only the church of Christ, Romans 16:16. Prove to me then by book chapter and verse on the claim you say everybody goes directly to heaven when they die, which is impossible because you seem to forget the day of Judgment, but go ahead and try with book, chapter and verse or don't expect an answer back, as your opinion isn't accepted over the words of God.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
To the first, Luke 23:43: "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.", which you should have known without even looking it up.
And to this line of yours: "...you say everybody goes directly to heaven when they die", now you are just being dishonest as I never made such a claim. And I never claimed that the Mennonite church is in the Bible, so you just continue to spout one pathetic lie after another after another, while at the same time strutting around like a self-righteous peacock.
Goodbye.
Consider the possibility that those who appear dead to us still appear alive to themselves and are merely separated from us by time. They can pray for us. Can we pray for the people who live in the past? We should be able to. We don't know whether our prayers help them or not, but that doesn't mean that they don't. Maybe they do. Maybe that isn't what you are asking, however.
Neo Deist
Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Can the living pray for the dead? Sure! Does it do any good? Nah...they are dead.
Can the dead pray for the living? The jury is out because no one knows what happens after death. All we have are some varied religious and scientific beliefs. As soon as someone dies, goes through rigor mortis and then comes back to write a book, we will know more!
Pretty grim, eh? Really, how could you NOT love and worship a deity that creates so much vicious, cruel, infinite unkindness. Kinda makes you want to go and torture somebody yourself just to be like him, no?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Praising, blessing, exalting, and honoring the deceased can please them, assist them in purification, and exalt them in the next life
Neo Deist
Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
Why do you never use scripture to back up what you're assuming, as scripture is the answer, not your opinion. You can alleviate all those maybe's with answers by using the bible. When you die and are gone to the hadean realm you are either in paradise or a place of torment until judgment. They both know where they will ultimately end up at when judgment comes, but until judgment this is where they stay, either paradise or a place of torment where there's weeping and gnashing of teeth.