Can we compromise on abortion?

[Koldo]

That is a choice. People know or should know that contraception is not 100% reliable.

Sure, but how does this answer my post?

Remember what you have said:

"No such thing as free anything. Look at the US debt. If a child is a financial burden to you then don't have one. I would say it is immoral to have a child you cannot support financially or emotionally etc."

You got pregnant. It was an accident. Is it immoral to have this child if you cannot support them financially or emotionally?

It looks like an argument in favor of abortion. Are you pro-life?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Condom breaks .. badda bing .. badda bong .. at which point it would be nice to be able to rush out to any 24 hour pharmacy and get the pill .. prior to the sperm even reaching the egg .. no harm no foul ball .. but a state of idiocy has come upon certain states .. hell bent on authoritarianism .. of a particularly nasty theocratic nature .. forcing religious belief on others through physical violence .. an extremely disgusting anathema to the founding principle ..and of the Constitutional Republic.

That is not an accident. Everyone knows contraception is not 100% reliable. If I had a gun and accidentally fired it at someone would we be ok with just saying oh well, no consequences.

I am not religious.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

How about you also agree not to force your religious beliefs on others through physical violence !? now that would be compromise

I agree, I am an atheist.

 

[Alien826]

Again, how do people get pregnant accidentally? Careless is not accidental, it is a choice.

Do you mean "carefree", meaning happy go lucky or similar? By careless I mean one who doesn't take as much care as they should and tends to make mistakes. Others have covered the subject in detail and I don't have anything to add.

 

[Alien826]

That is not an accident. Everyone knows contraception is not 100% reliable. If I had a gun and accidentally fired it at someone would we be ok with just saying oh well, no consequences.

I prefer to use driving as an analogy. It's actually not too difficult to avoid hurting someone with a gun. If I set out to drive my car, I have no intention of being involved in an accident. I know the car, as designed, has good brakes, steering, and so on. I take care to have car checked regularly to ensure everything is working. I check the tire pressures before I leave. Once on the road I use everything I know to drive safely (this is a sort of idealized me). I have insurance to recompense anyone hurt or property damaged. Despite all my precautions, it remains possible that I could be involved in an accident. There are no consequences of a criminal nature so long as all the above factors apply. What's more, nobody says I can't have my car repaired because I should have realized that driving is dangerous.

 

[Sargonski]

I agree, I am an atheist.

Excellent - do you also agree that there is no secular justification for abortion law prior to 22 weeks

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I mean the reality. You are defending something I didn't object to. In your dream the law is protective of women's health (which is not the reality) and women and children get assistance that protects then from the hardships of rearing a child in a financially precarious situation (which is not the reality). You'll have to wake up to proceed in a rational debate.

I guess that is a point I'll have to give to the @Alien826, you can't compromise with a delusional interlocutor.

Sidenote: While I'm all for addressing the argument, not the person, it seems you are deliberately avoiding to reply to me. (You have learned to reply to others, Posts #506, #507). Why is that?

I never said it was perfect or comprehensive. You said there were no programs available. That is what I was responding to. I have responded to you. If I missed one then I apologize. Every time I get on the site I have 15-20 to respond to.

 

[Sargonski]

I prefer to use driving as an analogy. It's actually not too difficult to avoid hurting someone with a gun. If I set out to drive my car, I have no intention of being involved in an accident. I know the car, as designed, has good brakes, steering, and so on. I take care to have car checked regularly to ensure everything is working. I check the tire pressures before I leave. Once on the road I use everything I know to drive safely (this is a sort of idealized me). I have insurance to recompense anyone hurt or property damaged. Despite all my precautions, it remains possible that I could be involved in an accident. There are no consequences of a criminal nature so long as all the above factors apply. What's more, nobody says I can't have my car repaired because I should have realized that driving is dangerous.

right .. so there should be no consequences of a criminal nature for an accidential pregnancy - provided the people come up with some mitigation method that was in place .. such as "The Rhythm Method" and whole one could cry "That doesn't work" all one likes ... you can't prove "mens Rea" on that basis.. can't prove the couple "Intended it"

This all assumes that one have shown an accidental preggo is a crime to begin with --- which it hasn't but, ... even if we did make such an assumption . there is no justification for Law ... Not Guilty yer Honor

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Well, it is neither true nor false. It is a belief. I just happen to have another belief.

You don't just happen to have any beliefs. You believe something is true or not based on the evidence you have and how you evaluate that evidence. Everything you think is true or false is a belief. The goal is to have beliefs that line up with reality.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And my point was and is that it isn't enough, especially when dealing with long-term care.

That was not what you said but this is a different issue as to how to pay for these programs you want.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Answer to what specifically?

How does a woman get pregnant accidentally?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Not anywhere comparable! First of all, a vaccine is meant to prevent a medical condition. ( Not getting the vaccine leaves you at greater risk of serious illness.) Still, if you come down with the illness even though you were vaccinated, the military will still treat you to get rid of unwanted medical condition. The closest analogy you might get comparing vaccinations and pregnancy is to compare vaccinations to birth control. So, if you follow the same lines of practice the military has regarding vaccination and illness and apply them to pregnant women (ignoring the fact that we are talking about civilians,) then birth control would be mandatory and accidental pregnancies would be treated.

That was not my point. My point was actively making decisions in your life that lead to consequences.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You don't just happen to have any beliefs. You believe something is true or not based on the evidence you have and how you evaluate that evidence. Everything you think is true or false is a belief. The goal is to have beliefs that line up with reality.

You confuse evidence with norms. Show with evidence that a human life has positive worth.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Make fun if you want but only one person has actually answered the question so far. Most women and men make a choice to have sex. The resulting life are what they need to take responsibility for.


I do, you just disagree, we have been through that already.


I don't take your claim of being pro choice seriously either.

It looks like your feelings were hurt.

The problem is that you never addressed the problems I brought up rationally. But when one only has an emotional argument then emotions seem rational to them.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

And again, this could not be more clear if you put it on a billboard. You want to make sure that women face a negative consequence if they have sex. This is not about protecting life, this is about punishing and controlling women.

Nope. How come you don't say OI hate and want to control men as well since I want he men to take responsibility for their actions as well? I do not want to punish women nor do I want to punish men I just expect them to live up to their responsibilities of their actions when they create a life.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Do you think abortion up to birth should be legal? When would you restrict abortion? How does this answer my question?

I answered that more than once and gave a reasonable solution. As usual you could not deal with it.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Condoms break. People forget to take pills. Or mix birth control pills with antihistamines without knowing about the negative interactions.
Hell I knew a couple where the guy had a vasectomy and the woman was on the pill and she still ended up pregnant.

Those are not accidents. Those are informed decisions that are made knowing the potential consequences and if they are not well informed that is on them as well. If you are driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone and you don't realize it, you are still responsible for going 90 mph.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Sure, but how does this answer my post?

Remember what you have said:

"No such thing as free anything. Look at the US debt. If a child is a financial burden to you then don't have one. I would say it is immoral to have a child you cannot support financially or emotionally etc."

You got pregnant. It was an accident. Is it immoral to have this child if you cannot support them financially or emotionally?

It looks like an argument in favor of abortion. Are you pro-life?

I am pro life on the abortion issue. It is immoral to have a child you cannot support; However, it is also immoral to end a life you created through your actions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Excellent - do you also agree that there is no secular justification for abortion law prior to 22 weeks

Misogyny can be secular.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Those are not accidents. Those are informed decisions that are made knowing the potential consequences and if they are not well informed that is on them as well. If you are driving 90 mph in a 70 mph zone and you don't realize it, you are still responsible for going 90 mph.

Yep, they're definitely accidents, by definition.

accident​

noun​

1
a
: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance
Their meeting was an accident.

b
: lack of intention or necessity : CHANCE
They met by accident rather than by design.


2
a
: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance
was involved in a traffic accident

b
medical : an unexpected and medically important bodily event especially when injurious
a cerebrovascular accident

c
law : an unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which legal relief may be sought
d
US, informal

—used euphemistically to refer to an uncontrolled or involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation (as by a baby or a pet)

Definition of ACCIDENT

an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance; lack of intention or necessity : chance; an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

Using a condom and having it break is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance.
Using birth control pills and having a vasectomy and still getting pregnant is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance.
Taking birth control pills without knowing that antihistamines can interfere with their effectiveness is an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance.