Can we compromise on abortion?

[Subduction Zone]

@crossfire I think this might be the story, but honestly I don’t know
There’s admittedly a few in circulation at the present

Texas woman denied an abortion tells senators she ‘nearly died on their watch’ | CNN

A woman who is suing the state of Texas after being denied an abortion told lawmakers Wednesday that not receiving abortion care harmed her mental health and might prevent her from having children in the future.

amp.cnn.com

I also found this one from last year, which was hard to read

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/22/health/ohio-abortion-patient-doctor/index.html

Either way. Doctors should be assessing this not the law. I thought Americans valued freedom

All too often they are for "Freedom for me, but not for thee". When it comes to abortion the strongest opposition to it tends to come from men. Women are the ones that have to face the consequences of pregnancy personally and they tend to have a bit more compassion for each other. That is not saying that all men are antiabortion. I am not. Or saying that all women are prochoice. But overall that is the way it goes. I forgot which state it was recently, but the Republican women in a state congress joined with the Democrats in opposing a new bill outlawing abortion.

Ahh, it was South Carolina:

Abortion ban rejected in South Carolina after GOP women join filibuster

The South Carolina state Senate rejected a near-total abortion ban on Thursday, after the chamber’s five female lawmakers led a multiday filibuster against the bill. Three Republicans, a Democrat a…

thehill.com

 

[SomeRandom]

I've read several stories like these already. The first woman, who wants to have children is having difficulty getting pregnant again, due to a lack of care. Doctors are not lawyers, and legislators are not doctors.

Proof positive in my mind that anti abortion measures just cause unnecessary suffering and run counter to its espoused goal of preserving life.

The irony of my own position (pro choice) is that I actually legitimately consider abortion to be immoral according to my personal faith.
But to me, for a doctor to deny an abortion is completely unethical

 

[SomeRandom]

All too often they are for "Freedom for me, but not for thee". When it comes to abortion the strongest opposition to it tends to come from men. Women are the ones that have to face the consequences of pregnancy personally and they tend to have a bit more compassion for each other. That is not saying that all men are antiabortion. I am not. Or saying that all women are prochoice. But overall that is the way it goes. I forgot which state it was recently, but the Republican women in a state congress joined with the Democrats in opposing a new bill outlawing abortion.

Ahh, it was South Carolina:

Abortion ban rejected in South Carolina after GOP women join filibuster

The South Carolina state Senate rejected a near-total abortion ban on Thursday, after the chamber’s five female lawmakers led a multiday filibuster against the bill. Three Republicans, a Democrat a…

thehill.com

Ahh the abolitionists. That’s what they’re called aren’t they? (folks who are for total abortion bans.)
I’ve read that such a movement is comprised mostly of men. Of course there are pro life women and pro choice men. But that specific subset of the pro life movement tends to be rather male exclusive.
I’ve also read some rather disturbing proposals coming from such abolitionists. Like there was this guy who wanted women who abort even in the case of rape to be jailed.
It makes my stomach turn reading about such proposals.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Ahh the abolitionists. That’s what they’re called aren’t they? (folks who are for total abortion bans.)
I’ve read that such a movement is comprised mostly of men. Of course there are pro life women and pro choice men. But that specific subset of the pro life movement tends to be rather male exclusive.
I’ve also read some rather disturbing proposals coming from such abolitionists. Like there was this guy who wanted women who abort even in the case of rape to be jailed.
It makes my stomach turn reading about such proposals.

They tend to have traditional biblical views that women are property. The same sort of people tend to want to keep it a crime when a wife cheats on her husband. It is a crime against the man. But they do not seem to mind so much if a husband cheats on his wife. As long as he is not cheating with someone else's wife since then that man would be the victim. They are not my favorite sort of people.

 

[SomeRandom]

They tend to have traditional biblical views that women are property. The same sort of people tend to want to keep it a crime when a wife cheats on her husband. It is a crime against the man. But they do not seem to mind so much if a husband cheats on his wife. As long as he is not cheating with someone else's wife since then that man would be the victim. They are not my favorite sort of people.

Damn!
Talk about folks that I would rather avoid in my life.
I know some traditionalist kind of misogynistic folks. But even they’d balk at such a mindset

 

[crossfire]

This is the nub of it imo.

I would say that when we are talking about pregnancy what people value (when they do) is the process of pregnancy, which is how we mammals produce more of us. I'm sure that if a woman that wanted a baby was offered a deal where she had a (live) fetus inside her forever she would not assign any value to it.

Here's another thought. If a woman that desperately wants a child has a miscarriage, she is very unhappy. If she then goes on to get pregnant again all her hopes are renewed and she then values the new fetus very highly and the dead fetus is, if not of zero value, then very little. So, are fetuses fungible? (Ladies, I know it's more complicated than that, it's just a thought).

Anyway, that was a slight diversion. If it all comes down to subjective value (and I believe it does) then the whole thing gets a lot more complicated than simple logic. And don't forget that there are many other people that have value, most obviously the woman involved.

Well yeah, one generally has the power to designate whether someone in your domicile is a welcome guest to be protected or an unwelcome intruder that is a threat to be defended against or expelled. That is totally a subjective call. You are generally happy to see a welcome guest, but may fear an intruder who will do you harm, especially if they broke in through a locked door. You still have the right to defend yourself even if your door was unlocked or even left open.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

I will be honest with you all. I do not have time to respond to all the posts I have in my que on this thread so I will have to end this. I appreciate the discussion and I think we made our points and know where we disagree. This debate will go on forever, I don't think we are going to settle it here anyway. Have a great evening.

 

[Sargonski]

I will be honest with you all. I do not have time to respond to all the posts I have in my que on this thread so I will have to end this. I appreciate the discussion and I think we made our points and know where we disagree. This debate will go on forever, I don't think we are going to settle it here anyway. Have a great evening.

Aww .. take ball home so soon ? pity - you will be missed ... by at least some of us masochists

 

[fantome profane]

Aww .. take ball home so soon ? pity - you will be missed ... by at least some of us masochists

That is unkind.

 

[Sargonski]

That is unkind.

come now .. with a little humor ... and a spoon full of sugar .. the medicine go down ..

 

[fantome profane]

come now .. with a little humor ... and a spoon full of sugar .. the medicine go down ..

Well, I just think we shouldn't kick someone when they are down.

A gentleman waits till he gets up.

 

[Sargonski]

Well, I just think we shouldn't kick someone when they are down.

A gentleman waits till he gets up.

Who was Down .. said was pity leaving playground .. gave a nudge .. the spoon full of sugar a little joke for the parting of the way.

 

[Heyo]

I will be honest with you all. I do not have time to respond to all the posts I have in my que on this thread so I will have to end this. I appreciate the discussion and I think we made our points and know where we disagree. This debate will go on forever, I don't think we are going to settle it here anyway. Have a great evening.

I appreciate how this debate has been mostly civil even with such a hot topic. And I liked the challenge to debate a principled defender of a position that seems pretty indefensible from my pov.

 

[Heyo]

Well, I just think we shouldn't kick someone when they are down.

A gentleman waits till he gets up.

I wouldn't hold my breath.
I've dealt with people who lost a debate only to return with the same debunked arguments in another thread two weeks later. I've a feeling @Clizby Wampuscat is not one of those.

 

[Alien826]

I wouldn't hold my breath.
I've dealt with people who lost a debate only to return with the same debunked arguments in another thread two weeks later. I've a feeling @Clizby Wampuscat is not one of those.

He's an Atheist, that's why he's so nice.

‍:run away:

 

[GardenLady]

When it comes to abortion the strongest opposition to it tends to come from men. Women are the ones that have to face the consequences of pregnancy personally and they tend to have a bit more compassion for each other.

I see much vocal and fervent opposition to legal abortion from women, but they are mostly evangelicals and Catholics. My observation is that with men, their view on abortion is often determined by whether they are married or not. I find single men more likely to be pro-choice.

 

[GardenLady]

Today's anti-abortion movement is led by the religious right. The right didn't always oppose abortion. They were largely OK with it for years.
Before Roe v Wade, in fact, the Clergy Consultation Service on Abortion (CCS) helped women with abortion access and care, and vetted providers.

Except Catholics. Most Catholics have been opposed to abortion all along. Even though (per Guttmacher) about 1/4 of abortion patients arae Catholic. As a former Catholic, I found it disturbing that the Catholic church railed against both abortion and contraception.

 

[GardenLady]

a pregnant person should have the right to end their pregnancy at all points during the pregnancy.

Many of us who are reluctantly pro-choice will not accept this position. I can reluctantly accept unrestricted access for the first trimester or maybe 15 weeks (and I think sexually active women who would choose to abort if birth control fails should be peeing on a stick weekly). After that--meaning after the first trimester or maybe 15 weeks--IMO, abortion should be limited to medical reasons such as serious risk to mother's life/health or a fetal abnormality inconsistent with life. I find elective abortion problematic in the first trimester or up to 15 weeks; abortion after that for nonmedical reasons I find abhorrent.

 

[GardenLady]

Yeah I know I've made several comments in a row. Last one.... the GOP is clearly afraid of allowing the American people to vote directly on this issue by referendum based on what they saw in Kansas.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Many of us who are reluctantly pro-choice will not accept this position.

Then I would put an asterisk on your "pro-choice."

I can reluctantly accept unrestricted access for the first trimester or maybe 15 weeks (and I think sexually active women who would choose to abort if birth control fails should be peeing on a stick weekly). After that--meaning after the first trimester or maybe 15 weeks--IMO, abortion should be limited to medical reasons such as serious risk to mother's life/health or a fetal abnormality inconsistent with life.

What do you think happens at 15 weeks that warrants stripping a pregnant person of their rights?

I find elective abortion problematic in the first trimester or up to 15 weeks; abortion after that for nonmedical reasons I find abhorrent.

Do you think that finding something personally abhorrent is enough justification to make it illegal for people who don't accept your views?

There are lots of things that I find abhorrent that I haven't tried to get banned; should I change my approach?