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Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?

Are proofs of any value in determining the credentials or authenticity of Spiritual Teacher?

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  • Proofs are valuable for demonstrating their claims are false.

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  • Total voters
    28

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
But maybe if you had a different religion, you would be an even better person. Just as you can't blame personal failures on religions, how can you put success on it? It's the person themselves that makes themselves a better person.

Membership in a religious faith on its own lacks meaning. We need to practice the teachings of that faith. For most teachings in most faiths we don't even need to be a member to practice it.

At the end of the day its up to us how much effort we make in this life to become better people or not. Religion can help with that, sometimes a lot and in some cases hinder us.

How do I know the Baha'i Faith is the best religion for me? I spent 5 years searching and investigating before I made my decision. I studied, practiced, and attended different gatherings from a variety of faiths. I know that being a Saivite Hindu as you practice could not possibly work for me. You don't believe in Christ to begin with. My faith couldn't work for you because you would need to accept not only Baha'u'llah, but Christ and Muhammad.

That being said, you may be an exemplary individual as you apply the best teachings of your faith to your life, whereas I fail in every respect because I don't even bother practicing one teaching.
 

Vinayaka

devotee
Premium Member
Membership in a religious faith on its own lacks meaning. We need to practice the teachings of that faith. For most teachings in most faiths we don't even need to be a member to practice it.

At the end of the day its up to us the effort we make in this life to become better people or not. Religion can help with that, sometimes a lot and in some cases hinder us.

How do I know the Baha'i Faith is the best religion for me? I spent 5 years searching and investigating before I made my decision. I studied, practiced, and attended different gatherings from a variety of faiths. I know that being a Saivite Hindu as you practice could not possibly work for me. You don't believe in Christ to begin with. My faith couldn't work for you because you would need to accept not only Baha'u'llah, but Christ and Muhammad.

That being said, you may be an exemplary individual as you apply the best teachings of your faith to your life, whereas I fail in every respect because I don't even bother practicing one teaching.

You misinterpret my comments as something akin to hate mail. Oh well

It is simply not possible to live two simultaneous lives. You can't be a Baha'i and not a Baha'i to compare it. Same with marriages and relationships. Perhaps one would have been happier married to someone else. We can never know. (Of course people are free to make claims to the contrary, but it's not logical, in my view.)

But my comment was more based on observational experience. I know a few people who did make that claim, after a major conversion. So I knew them as adolescents, or young adults, and than met them again, later after religion got into their lives. In two cases, absolutely, I preferred the old friend the one before religion. So although from their own perspective, (and indeed they claimed it, as you have) they were better people because of their new found faith. But from my perspective, they were better people before it ... less condescending, kinder, less critical of others, and generally far more fun to be around. So my comment was along those lines, and I'm sorry if I didn't explain it that well to you before. The same may well be true of me. In fact I know some folks who definitely preferred the old me. They didn't have to cater to any picky vegetarianism to be a good host.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Religion can help with that, sometimes a lot and in some cases hinder us.
Religion is always somewhat limiting, that is why you can best embrace Dharma so you are not stuck to a limiting religious or sectarian perspective. You don't need to be a Hindu, Buddhist, Jain or Sikh to follow Dharma, for Dharma you only need to have a human body (well at least on this planet).
 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
Thank you for your response.

The words of Christ are perhaps pertinent for one who sincerely seeks the truth in any matter.

Matthew 18:2-4, Matthew 19:24, John 8:32 and Matthew 25:31-46

It really is a matter of the heart rather than trying to solve it like a mathematical problem.

I don't seek to prove to you the truth of my Faith, but I do need to correct your presentation. The Baha'i Faith is not a syncretic religion or a mish mash of the teachings of various other religions. It is founded on the Teachings of Baha'u'llah as Christianity is founded in Christ and Judaism on Moses. So as Christianity draws on what has gone before it with the Hebrew Bible, and Islam draws on both Judaism and Christianity, so too does the Baha'i Faith draw on what has gone before. However most importantly, it is an indepedent religion founded on Baha'u'llah's Revelation.

I will try to get this straight. Ba' hai is uniquely its very own message, not incorporating other religion's themes?

Who exactly is Jesus, and Muhammad then according to Ba'hai?

Are the Bible, and the Quran erroneous interpretations of Jesus and Muhammad?

Are not Allah, and Yahweh totally different Gods?
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
If there were proof, whst value is there to faith?
Good question. In the gospels Jesus says no man has seen God at anytime (John 1:18). So is it possible to see God or even know God? The best way is through His Manifestations or Great Teachers who both provides proof and is the proof. So we have Faith that God exists through His Manifestation whom we can know. The Manifestations of God are people like us who have existed on this earth but have brought a message from God. For the Christians it is the gospels and Muslims the Quran that provides the testimony to God. So the likes of Jesus are the surest foundation to have knowledge and faith in God. Jesus spoke of the importance of this foundation (Matthew 7:24-27) which was His own being.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Good question. In the gospels Jesus says no man has seen God at anytime (John 1:18). So is it possible to see God or even know God? The best way is through His Manifestations or Great Teachers who both provides proof and is the proof. So we have Faith that God exists through His Manifestation whom we can know. The Manifestations of God are people like us who have existed on this earth but have brought a message from God. For the Christians it is the gospels and Muslims the Quran that provides the testimony to God. So the likes of Jesus are the surest foundation to have knowledge and faith in God. Jesus spoke of the importance of this foundation (Matthew 7:24-27) which was His own being.


So what use is faith since you have proof.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I will try to get this straight. Ba' hai is uniquely its very own message, not incorporating other religion's themes?

It is the most common misunderstanding of the Baha’i Faith to imagine it is a syncretic religion. It isn’t.

The Baha’i Faith has its unique Message through Bahá’u’lláh.

Bahá’u’lláh | What Bahá’ís Believe

Bahá'u'lláh - Wikipedia

Who exactly is Jesus, and Muhammad then according to Ba'hai?

They are Manifestations of God.

Manifestations of God | What Bahá’ís Believe

Manifestation of God - Wikipedia

Are the Bible, and the Quran erroneous interpretations of Jesus and Muhammad?

The New Testament provides a testimony to the life and Teachings of Jesus.

The Quran is a Revelation from God spoken through His Messenger Muhammad.

Are not Allah, and Yahweh totally different Gods?

It depends on who you talk to. Baha’is believe they are names (Jewish and Arabic) for the same God.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
Jesus are the surest foundation to have knowledge and faith in God. Jesus spoke of the importance of this foundation (Matthew 7:24-27) which was His own being.
Jesus stressed that as a follower of Jesus one should actively put his teachings into practice and not just know or admire them (or even Jesus as a person). This is the Tantric or the Dharmic approach that spirituality is practical rather than theoretical (faith or belief).
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Faith is not blind. It is founded on knowledge or proof. They are not inseparable as you imagine.
Another great thread, this one really took off in a hurry.

Now for "proof". Christians tell me that the Bible is the "infallible" Word of God. So in it they can prove Jesus is God and the "only" way to get a person's sins forgiven. To turn away from this "truth" means a person will be cast into hell. By saying all those things and more, they negated, or disproved, Judaism... and all other religions. They can also use their infallible book of truth to disprove Islam and the Baha'i Faith too. So all messengers of God that aren't in the Bible are false.

But, isn't all circular reasoning? And isn't what the Baha'i do circular also. Baha'u'llah is latest messenger from God. What God says is the truth. What the Baha'i Faith says is the truth, because Baha'u'llah said so, and he speaks the truth from God. Therefore, whatever the other religions say is not the truth, unless it agrees with what the Baha'i Faith says.
 

Dawnofhope

Non-Proselytizing Baha'i
Staff member
Premium Member
I've yet to hear a prophecy that convinced me it was authentic and proven, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Prophecies of course are just one of a list of nine given and should never be at the top. Which prophecies of which religions have you looked at if you don't mind me asking?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
1. His Character
Doesn't seem like proof to me. Talented, good kids are many. Any prophet I've heard of has had personality flaws and seemed to me just like anyone else.

2. His Revelation
There are texts that have valid advice such as tao teh ching, yet they aren't revelations, but from men who've had mystical experience and observed life and deduced quite rightly some variables of the human condition.

3. His verses

The verses (words) revealed by the Manifestations of God are different from those of men. They are the 'Word of God'. They have great spiritual power and change the hearts of men. They possess a special beauty and eloquence.
I would go with my national epic on this, since nothing gets as eloquent and inspiring as that. Point being, it's a matter of personal preference.

4. The martyrs

When God sends a new Teacher to mankind detached pure-hearted souls seek Him out. They become so inspired and transformed that they readily and joyfully sacrifice their wealth, position and even their lives in the path of God.
Lots of people dedicate themselves to religions and causes with or without God. Many died for communism after reading the "revelations" of it's "prophets."

5. The repudiation

Christ was persecuted by the clergy and the rulers of His day. The same happened to Muhammad and to every Manifestation of God.
Persecution is quite normal. Pagans were persecuted by clergy that replaced their old ways which they honestly kept, wouldn't that make them prophets too?

Prophecies of course are just one of a list of nine given and should never be at the top. Which prophecies of which religions have you looked at if you don't mind me asking?
I'd say they were 6,7 and 8.

I've heard of the ones of the major religions present in western countries as well as some smaller ones. I was taught many of the Christian ones in school and how supposedly the Jews didn't understand their prophecies so they missed Jesus. Many of the ones I heard of, required intense mental gymnastics to get to or a suspension of disbelief. Non-verifiable and after the fact reinterpretations seem to be the rule in my observation.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Jesus stressed that as a follower of Jesus one should actively put his teachings into practice and not just know or admire them (or even Jesus as a person). This is the Tantric or the Dharmic approach that spirituality is practical rather than theoretical (faith or belief).

I see this is also the Baha'i way, Deeds attest to ones Faith.

We have been told this folowing passage is true Faith, would you see these as akin to a Tantric or the Dharmic approach?

"Be generous in prosperity, and thankful in adversity. Be worthy of the trust of thy neighbor, and look upon him with a bright and friendly face. Be a treasure to the poor, an admonisher to the rich, an answerer of the cry of the needy, a preserver of the sanctity of thy pledge. Be fair in thy judgment, and guarded in thy speech. Be unjust to no man, and show all meekness to all men. Be as a lamp unto them that walk in darkness, a joy to the sorrowful, a sea for the thirsty, a haven for the distressed, an upholder and defender of the victim of oppression. Let integrity and uprightness distinguish all thine acts. Be a home for the stranger, a balm to the suffering, a tower of strength for the fugitive. Be eyes to the blind, and a guiding light unto the feet of the erring. Be an ornament to the countenance of truth, a crown to the brow of fidelity, a pillar of the temple of righteousness, a breath of life to the body of mankind, an ensign of the hosts of justice, a luminary above the horizon of virtue, a dew to the soil of the human heart, an ark on the ocean of knowledge, a sun in the heaven of bounty, a gem on the diadem of wisdom, a shining light in the firmament of thy generation, a fruit upon the tree of humility."

Regards Tony
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
There are texts that have valid advice such as tao teh ching, yet they aren't revelations, but from men who've had mystical experience and observed life and deduced quite rightly some variables of the human condition.
The Chinese word Tao comes from Sanskrit Tantra. The Japanese word Shin-To comes from Shin-Tao, so from Chinese Tantra. And the Japanese word Zen comes from Sanskrit Dhyana, which is a part of yogic practice.

Religious talk of 'revelations' or 'messengers' is a form of forcing ideas on people instead of giving them the freedom to reject them if found too irrational or impractical.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"Can we prove or disprove the claims of any Messenger of God?":
Can we disprove that those who claim to be messengers of God were either rank charlatans or mentally deranged persons (psychiatric disorders - Schizophrenia, megalomania, etc.)?
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member
The Chinese word Tao comes from Sanskrit Tantra. The Japanese word Shin-To comes from Shin-Tao, so from Chinese Tantra. And the Japanese word Zen comes from Sanskrit Dhyana, which is a part of yogic practice.
I don't agree with that etymology for tao/do. It also doesn't correspond to tantra. Actually Zen comes from Chinese C'han.

Religious talk of 'revelations' or 'messengers' is a form of forcing ideas on people instead of giving them the freedom to reject them if found too irrational or impractical.
That's close to how I feel about it too.
 

Marcion

gopa of humanity's controversial Taraka Brahma
I don't agree with that etymology for tao/do. It also doesn't correspond to tantra. Actually Zen comes from Chinese C'han.
The Chinese word C'han is derived from Sanskrit Dhyana.;)
So Dhyana > C'han > Zen and Tantra > Ta'o > To.
Tantra is many thousands of years old and so is the Tao or Chinese Tantra, so some adjustment to the teachings is only natural. But there is no fundamental difference.
Such differences can also be found between Hindu and Buddhist forms of Tantra.
The Tantra in the teaching of Jesus also has its own flavour.

Lord Shiva was the big reformer of Tantra who lived just over 7000 years ago (when Tantra had already been present for thousands of years).
It's a bit sad that Baha'u'llah did not realise that Lord Shiva was such an important historical personality.
Of course by the time of the Shaeva Puranic religion Shiva had since long been turned into a largely mythical part of their spiritual philosophy, so Baha'u'llah must have concluded that He was a purely mythical god.
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
The text you quoted is largely about service (seva) and about following moral codes (Yama and Niyama, the do's and don'ts) which are indeed part of Tantric philosophy and following Dharma.
However in Tantra they would not be given as such imperatives but such a text would explain in detail the spiritual reasons for following such ways of behaving.

Correct, they are indeed a path of service. The spiritual reason for doing these acts of service has also been explained in great detail.

Of course that would be a mammoth subject, because the spiritual aspect of these teachings is the entire reason for us being here and being given the chance to serve.

If I may mention a couple, as we may find we are spiritually not far from the same path.

We have been told that this world is the Matrix of our Spiritual Existence. We have been given this life to obtain our Spiritual Limbs. The passage I quoted before is the required virtues that will be the Spiritual limbs required in traversing all the world of God. When we die to this world, we are born from this world into the Matrix of our spiritual existence. We are at the beginning of a great journey in the Love and knowledge of God.

It has been further explained this is a state of being. A person without virtues may be like a rock in the spiritual worlds, but they will be aware of this. Some may be like an eagle, some may have traversed all the virtues and obtain the goal prior to parting from this world.

I do hope that discussing these things in this way, that we come understand we are in this journey together. Not just you and I, but all humanity.

Regards Tony
 
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TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
You cannot "prove" anything with regard to God....that is why we need "faith". Faith does not require proof (Hebrews 11:1) ...it requires conviction. We all have to find our own, based on what we accept as truth.....why we accept it tells God a lot about who we are.

Christians cannot accept the teachings of anyone but Jesus Christ. We have no prophets after him. If their prophet is believed to be the returned Messiah, then where are the fulfilled Messianic promises? Where is the end of pain, suffering and death? (Revelation 21:2-4)
Where is the paradise that was foretold by the Jewish prophets like Isaiah? Where is the end of war? (Isaiah 11:1-9; Isaiah 65:21-25; Isaiah 2:2-4)

Or Psalm 46:8-9....
"Come and witness the activities of Jehovah,
How he has done astonishing things on the earth.
9 He is bringing an end to wars throughout the earth.

He breaks the bow and shatters the spear;
He burns the military wagons with fire."

Where do we see that? When have we seen a time when humans are not warring with one another? It seems to be consistently increasing. :( And the weaponry has just become more indiscriminate and lethal.

With regard to Bahá'u’lláh.....is the Messiah to return, only to die twice? His sacrificial death in the first century was the ransom paid to redeem mankind....he was not going to return in the flesh and then lead people in a different path, trying to unite all religions and give credence to false prophets. Jehovah kept his people strictly separated from the nations who worshipped other gods.

Christ's return as judge of all the earth was going to be spectacular, accompanied by his angelic forces, to deal with disobedient mankind who followed the devil into false worship....and to reward those who remained faithful to the truth (sheep and goats).....it was to be the end of the age....and the beginning of the "new earth" under the "new heavens".....God's Kingdom. (2 Peter 3:13)

If you see the criteria listed for a true prophet...."The true prophet would speak in Jehovah’s name; the things foretold would come to pass (Deuteronomy 18:20-22); and his prophesying must promote true worship, being in harmony with God’s revealed word and commandments (Deuteronomy 13:1-4)"

1) Bahá'u’lláh did not speak in the name of YHWH. (Yahweh, Jehovah)

2) If what he said did come to pass, then that is a matter of interpretation.

3) His prophesies did not harmonize with the revealed word of God.

Baha'i sprang from Islam, not Judaism. The nation that God chose descended from Isaac not Ishmael. Jesus himself said that salvation originates with the Jews.....it was not to end with them however.

I do not believe that you can ever harmonize all the false religion in the world and meld them into one universal plan for the human race...that to me is something that the devil would promote....not because universal harmony is itself a bad thing, but because of the compromise involved in facilitating such a movement. It might sound good in theory, but it fights with everything the Bible teaches and it means that no one has to take a stand for God amid false religious opposers. It would mean that God didn't really mean what he said when he forbade Israel to adopt the worship of the Canaanites. He commanded that they remain separated from those beliefs and practices...but Israel disobeyed their God and immersed themselves in those false religious practices. God punished them severely for doing that...so why would Jehovah send a prophet into the world to negate everything that he taught his people....going against the teachings of his own son?

You will notice something interesting with the first requirement of a prophet listed above.....the importance of Jehovah's name. In his model prayer, the first thing that Jesus mentioned was the sanctification of God's name. (Matthew 6:9) Out of the three "Abrahamic faiths still on earth to this day...what do you see with regard to God's divine name...YHWH (Jehovah in English)?

The Jews cannot utter it, so the use of the name is lost to history because no one really knows how to pronounce it now. So "Hasham" (literally meaning "the name") is as close as they can get to the divine name. "Adonai" (LORD) is the substitute when reading their scripture though YHWH is written there. It seems odd that the Bible writers had no such hesitation to use God's name freely and reverently throughout their writings.....so why was there a decision made to remove God's name from their speech? Their excuse for this is not valid when you consult their scripture.

Islam calls God "Allah" which again simply means "LORD".....so again God remains nameless.

Christendom adopted the Jewish tradition of leaving God's name out of their vocabulary as well, and its not found in most of their Bible translations either......and because Jesus is also called "Lord" they have confused him with his Father and made them into one god, throwing in the holy spirit for good measure. So it seems that a nameless "LORD" is worshipped by all three.

Jehovah's Witnesses sought to rectify that situation and to restore God's name to its rightful place in scripture. We use God's name freely and reverently in whatever language is spoken by us, because God is the originator of language and recognizes his name in any tongue. It isn't how you say it...its the identity of the true God who is distinguished in the scriptures by his unique name. To us there has to be a clear distinction between the true God and his prophets and the many false gods and their prophets. We have no trouble making that distinction because we see it as something God has done all through Bible history. There can be no amalgamation. (2 Corinthians 6:14-18)

I have spent many hours discussing this with my good JW friend.

This is how we see things...

Yes that is the crucial consideration in this entire matter. Who do we turn to for Spiritual Understanding, Man or God?

Thus to understand Christ, we must turn to Christ and not take our understanding for Jewish thoughts on what Prophecy might mean. Now if we use the Message given by Christ, can we then see that Christ has shown us He is the One we should turn to? That would have to be a yes if one is a Christian. But if we asked it of the Jews, they will list what did not happen with Christ, just as a list has appeared in your post about Baha'u'llah.

Now in this age, if God has indeed fulfill the promise of a return, would it be wise to use the method the Jews used and that is being so convinced they know what the book is saying, that they used their ideas and not what the Word offered?

This is where we must use the Message given by a claimed Prophet, as that same Message will prove Him, or Reject Him on its own merit. Christ has given us those required tests of a Prophet.

Regards Tony
 
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