Can you explain to me the differences between Vadakalai and Thenkalai sects?

[Terese]

Pretty please?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Can you explain to me the differences between Vadakalai and Thenkalai sects?

Sure will. It will be greatly simplified, but here goes.

Thenkalai:

• Follow the teachings of Pillai Lokacharya and Manavala Mamunigal, in addition to Ramanuja.
• Place almost exclusive devotion on Vishnu, believing Lakshmi to be a Maha-Jiva; only being evaluated to her status because of Narayana.
• Place great emphasis of the poetry and works of the Alwars. So much so that their devotional works are used extensively in rites, puja, and other liturgies. The Vedas, Upanishads, Gita, etc. are still important, but the Alwars are given great importance.
• Saranagati (surrender) is not only the ultimate goal, but it's the only "whole" way to worship God.
• Vishnu's grace is likened to a mother cat carrying her kitten: we are wholly dependent on Him for Moksha and nothing else.

Vadakalai (what I follow):

• Follow the teachings of Vedanta Desika, in addition to Ramanuja.
• Place equal devotion to Lakshmi and Vishnu, believing her to be as important in the process of creation as Narayana.
• While the Alwars and their works are important, Sanskrit texts (like the Vedas, Upanishads, etc.) are extensively used.
• Saranagati is the ultimate goal, but yogas like Bhakti, Karma, and Jnana can aid us in our process to surrender.
• Vishnu's grace is like a monkey carrying her baby: we are depending on Him, but we also have to put in our effort and hold on tight.

However, despite these philosophical differences, both Thenkalai and Vadakalai are still in the same religion of Sri Vaishnavism. As such:

• Both follow Ramanuja.
• Both worship Narayana as Supreme.
• Both are based on Vedic scriptures and the works of the Alwars (but the emphasis depends on the tradition).
• Both are based on Vishishtadvaita.
• Both follow the same rituals and rites.

 

[Chakra]

Good post Starry. This is always a touchy subject for Shri Vaishnavas.

 

[Terese]

Thanks Starry!
Can you explain to me what a 'Maha-jiva' is?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Thanks Starry!
Can you explain to me what a 'Maha-jiva' is?

"Great soul", basically.

Someone/thing that isn't God, but is also not a mere mortal. One who is essentially realized and granted a boon/ their position via God's grace.

 

[Terese]

"Great soul", basically.

Someone/thing that isn't God, but is also not a mere mortal. One who is essentially realized and granted a boon/ their position via God's grace.

Is lakshmi Shakti? In vadakalai?

 

[StarryNightshade]

Is lakshmi Shakti? In vadakalai?

In essence, yeah, I would say she is. At least, that is how I understand her.

 

[Terese]

In essence, yeah, I would say she is. At least, that is how I understand her.

I'm a tad confused. Is Durga a form of Lakshmi then?

 

[StarryNightshade]

I'm a tad confused. Is Durga a form of Lakshmi then?

No, as far as I'm aware. I don't think I've met a single Vaishnava who said that Durga was an incarnation of Lakshmi.

Lakshmi does have her many forms, even some fierce ones similar to Durga, but Durga has her own identity and traditions.

 

[Terese]

No, as far as I'm aware. I don't think I've met a single Vaishnava who said that Durga was an incarnation of Lakshmi.

Lakshmi does have her many forms, even some fierce ones similar to Durga, but Durga has her own identity and traditions.

So Durga is seperate from Lakshmi? But isn't Durga is a manifestation of shakti?

 

[StarryNightshade]

So Durga is seperate from Lakshmi? But isn't Durga is a manifestation of shakti?

In Shaktism, she generally is.

To others, she is an incarnation of Parvati (Shiva's wife).

For some, she is a separate entity and a guardian of Maya.

For others, like me, she doesn't really play a huge role in their theology. In fact, in the 3 years since I started practicing, I've only been to two events in which Durga was the object of worship. One of which was this past year's Garba.

Different traditions, different perspectives.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Is lakshmi Shakti? In vadakalai?

Mother Lakshmi is Lord Vishnu's Shakti. Mother Parvati of Lord Shiva, Mother Maha Saraswati of Lord Brahma. Now what happens when these three Shaktis merge. The resultant is not consort of any one God and becomes a new entity. That is Mother Durga (explaining it from a simple Hindu's angle). That is why Durga is shown as holding the weapons of many Gods. Shiva's Trishula, Vishnu's Chakra and Gada, Indra's Vajra, Yama's mace, Varuna's pasha (noose), etc. She even has Shiva's third eye. Her power is greater than that of any one God.

For Shaktas, reverse the process. Adi Shakti is the creatrix. She created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, and gave them their powers.

 

[Aupmanyav]

http://zeenews.india.com/exclusive/how-durga-was-born-of-the-mighty-gods_6692.html

 

[Chakra]

So Durga is seperate from Lakshmi? But isn't Durga is a manifestation of shakti?

Yes, all Jivas are separate from each other. Durga is a Jiva and not an incarnation of Shakti in both schools of Shri Vaishnavism.

 

[Chakra]

Oh, and I "follow" Thenkalai, so if you have any questions for me and Starry, feel free to ask.

 

[Terese]

Oh, and I "follow" Thenkalai, so if you have any questions for me and Starry, feel free to ask.

Thanks

 

[kalyan]

1) Regarding Lord's mercy. Next to the Caste mark, this probably is the only other difference most people are aware of

Vadakalai View: Some positive gesture is necessary on the part of the jeevatma to deserve the grace of God, because He can be deemed partial if He grants Moksha to all both deserving and undeserving.

Tenkalai View: Lord's grace is spontaneous. He can grant Moksha to anyone he likes.

2) Regarding the status of Lakshmi (i) as to her being the means (ii) as to her being infinite (iii) as to her being Paramatma

Vadakalai View: (i) She is the means for attaining salvation as much as the Lord Himself and also has the role of a mediator ( Purushakara) (ii) She is infinite in nature (Vibhu) like the Lord Himself (iii) She is also Paramatma as much as the Lord Himself

Tenkalai View: (i) Do not accept this position though they accept her recommendatory role as held by Vadakalais (ii) She is atomic in nature like other Jeevatmas (iii) She is a Jeevatma like any of us.

3) Regarding Kaivalya

Vadakalai View: (i) Kaivalya is inferior to Paramapada (ii) Kaivalya is not eternal (iii) Kaivalya is situated Outside Paramapada

Tenkalai View (i) Accepted (ii) Kaivalya is eternal (iii) Kaivalya is within Paramapada but in its outermost parts.

4) Regarding the means of Bhakti and Prapatti

Vadakalai View: Accept both as the direct means but Bhakti is more difficult and dilatory while Prapatti is easy and immediate

Tenkalai View: Do not accept any means because Jeevatma is so utterly dependent as to be incapable of adopting either Bhakti or Prapatti as a means.

5) Regarding Prapatti

Vadakalai View: Prapatti has to be a positive specific act of surrender by the jeevatma to the Paramatma

Tenkalai View: No positive, specific act is necessary. All that is required is (i) the knowledge of the Svarupa of the Jeevatma and (ii) mental acceptance of the Lord's grace in granting salvation

6) Regarding sins

Vadakalai View: When a jeeva surrenders, the Lord forgives the sins committed by the jeevatma and grants Moksha.

Tenkalai View: The sins of a jeevatma is a source of joy for the Lord who relishes the same like a cow licking off the dirt on the body of its calf

7) Regarding performance of Compulsory duties like Sandhyavandanam

Vadakalai View: As compulsory duties are laid down by the Sastras which are the Lord's commandments, non- performance will tantamount to transgression of His commands (Ajna adhilangana) and will render the Prapanna liable for punishment

Tenkalai View: To a highly evolved soul, non- performance of the compulsory duties is not an offence. But, they should continue to do them more for setting an example to the less evolved souls.

8) Regarding the interpretation of the words "Sarva Dharman Parityajya' occurring in the Charama sloka

Vadakalai View: The Dharmas actually refer to the 32 Vidyas attaching to Bhaktiyoga.

REMOVED THIS AS THIS sloka has been wrongly misinterpreted in most sites

9) Regarding the Lord's grief at the suffering of the souls

Vadakalai View: One can have grief only when one cannot remove suffering of another. But, the Lord is capable of removing suffering. So, there is no need for Him to grieve. As Sri Rama , He shows to the World how a human would feel and how one should react on seeing the misery of others.

Tenkalai View: They hold that the Lord actually feels sorry on seeing the sufferings of souls and cite examples from Srimad Ramayana where Sri Rama is depicted as grieving over the misery of others.

10) Regarding the Lord's being also atomic as well as gigantic in size as mentioned in the Vedas.

Vadakalai View: He is smaller than the atom in beings that are atomic in size. This is called 'Antar Vyapti' ( Immanence). He is also greater than the greatest in the sense He pervades and surrounds everything. This is called ' Bahir Vyapti'. ( Transcendence)

Tenkalai View: His being atomic in atoms and enveloping even the biggest are all done by what is known as 'Agatitha Ghatana Saamartya'- Special powers enabling accomplishment of even the impossible.


I feel vadakalai is inferior to thenkalai in many ways..based on differences thenkalai is in abs line with vedas and bg

 

[Aupmanyav]

Don't feel like that. Continue in what you believe.

 

[Terese]

What is Kaivalya and Prapatti?

 

[Chakra]

This entire difference is created by humans with vested interests. Pillai Lokacharya and Vedanta Desika disagreed on only 3 things, but people added more and more differences for some reason.