Canadian Healthcare. Is It Really Better Than The United States?

[fantome profane]

It's called libertarianism. We believe in freedom for all, and likewise the assumption of full personal responsibility. We do not advocate "prevention", because everyone has their own ideas about "prevention".

It is an extreme caricature of libertarianism. Most libertarians accept the need for police and fire services.

 

[buddhist]

But you are saying you will wait till your house is on fire. That is foolish.

No, I never said that. I'd probably have my team water down my property to prevent the fire from jumping over.

 

[buddhist]

It is an extreme caricature of libertarianism. Most libertarians accept the need for police and fire services.

I accept the need for peace officers (sheriffs, etc.), as a proper role of libertarian government. Not police.

I accept the need for fire services, and those who find it necessary for their personal circumstances would pay for it.

It's called freedom of choice.

 

[fantome profane]

No, I never said that. I'd probably have my team water down my property to prevent the fire from jumping over.

Not the most efficient tactic. Even with watering down your property it can still catch on fire. The most efficient tactic is to put out the fire before it gets to your house. Your "fire contractor" would likely explain that to you.

 

[Augustus]

What do you have against freedom?

What do I have against children being left to die because of the bad decisions of their parents? Plenty.

What do I have about being forced to have an inferior service that may cost me my life probably at a greater cost? Plenty.

What do I have against wasting tax money rehousing families because we didn't put out a fire in their house? Plenty.

What do I have against wasting hours of my time finding contractors, doing due diligence, filling in paperwork, etc. over effortlessly paying $40. Plenty.

 

[buddhist]

Not the most efficient tactic. Even with watering down your property it can still catch on fire. The most efficient tactic is to put out the fire before it gets to your house. Your "fire contractor" would likely explain that to you.

And that's my choice to make, isn't it?

 

[Koldo]

Because your house is in danger if your neighbour's house is on fire. To allow the fire on your neighbour's house to burn is foolish. I am trying to get you to see that putting out the fire on your neighbour's house is in your own enlightened self-interest. The fire, if it is allowed to burn, will spread. Don't you see this?

If your neighbour is walking around with an infectious disease, it is in your enlightened self-interest to have your neighbour cured, for your own protection. Don't you see this?

It is short-sighted in every possible way. Just picture the firefighters waiting hours or even days until the neighbor's house burns down completely just so they can be sure there is no risk to the one property they were actually paid to protect. Now imagine the lengths they would have to go to protect a building that shares a wall with another one while they wait until the fire sets out by itself. Now factor in the risks of an explosion.

 

[buddhist]

What do I have against children being left to die because of the bad decisions of their parents? Plenty.

What do I have about being forced to have an inferior service probably at a greater cost? Plenty.

What do I have against wasting tax money rehousing families because we didn't put out a fire in their house? Plenty.

What do I have against wasting hours of my time finding contractors, doing due diligence, filling in paperwork, etc. over effortlessly paying $40. Plenty.

What do you have against people who celebrate the natural course of life and death?

What do you have against those who judge your ideas of service to be inferior, and unneeded?

What do you have against people who might find happiness for a new start in life, if their house burned down?

 

[fantome profane]

I accept the need for peace officers (sheriffs, etc.), as a proper role of libertarian government. Not police.

I accept the need for fire services, and those who find it necessary for their personal circumstances would pay for it.

It's called freedom of choice.

And that's my choice to make, isn't it?

You are missing my point. I am not denying you the right to choose. I am trying to talk to you about what is the wisest choice to make.

Think about this. What if your neighbour came over to talk to you. He and a bunch of others in the neighbourhood have a plan to pool their money and collectively hire a "fire contractor". They explain to you that doing so will be much much cheaper than hiring a contractor on your own, as well as being the most effective form of fire protection you can get.

So, are you in, or are you out.

It is your choice, but if you are out, you are a fool.

 

[Koldo]

It's called libertarianism. We believe in freedom for all, and likewise the assumption of full personal responsibility. We do not advocate "prevention", because everyone has their own ideas about "prevention".

You mean a very particular strain of libertarianism, don't you ?

 

[buddhist]

You are missing my point. I am not denying you the right to choose. I am trying to talk to you about what is the wisest choice to make.

Think about this. What if your neighbour came over to talk to you. He and a bunch of others in the neighbourhood have a plan to pool their money and collectively hire a "fire contractor". They explain to you that doing so will be much much cheaper than hiring a contractor on your own, as well as being the most effective form of fire protection you can get.

So, are you in, or are you out.

It is your choice, but if you are out, you are a fool.

It's my choice to make, and I'd probably join - voluntarily. If I believe that the terms of my personal contract with another fire contractor is more suitable for me, then I'd decline. They can call me a "fool" if they wish.

It's the "force" part I have a problem with. E.g. If the group came to me and demanded that I join their enterprise.

 

[buddhist]

You mean a very particular strain of libertarianism, don't you ?

See my signature.

 

[fantome profane]

It's my choice to make, and I'd probably join - voluntarily.

Thank you. Welcome to the social contract. You are among those wise people who recognise the fact that collectively we can get not only cheaper and more effective fire control, but cheaper more effective healthcare, cheaper more effective education etc. There are many things we do better together than we can do on our own.

 

[buddhist]

Thank you. Welcome to the social contract. You are among those wise people who recognise the fact that collectively we can get not only cheaper and more effective fire control, but cheaper more effective healthcare, cheaper more effective education etc. There are many things we do better together than we can do on our own.

Yes, I do, and I celebrate it if it can be voluntarily chosen. If something is really so great, then there would be no need to force everyone into a single system, right?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You mean a very particular strain of libertarianism, don't you ?

Sounds more like anarcho-capitalism or voluntaryism.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Sure, why not? Voluntary opt-in. If I don't opt-in, I don't qualify to use them.

Actually we tried that method here in the US to begin with. There were competing fire fighting services in all big cities, which led to massive confusion due to different companies using different size couplings for their hoses... firefighters actually getting into fistfights over who was responsible for a burning building while the structure burned to the ground... fires that could have been contained getting out of control because the building owner didn't have a contract with a firefighter service so one one tried to put it out until it started to spread... etc. After a series of devastating fires in major cities throughout the nation it was decided that for the sake of the common good that cities needed to provide firefighting services for the entire city. Government services like firefighting, police, sewage & water, libraries, have all been put into place because experience has taught us that some services for the common good are required for the communal society we all live in to function.

 

[Augustus]

What do you have against people who celebrate the natural course of life and death?

What do you have against those who judge your ideas of service to be inferior?

What do you have against people who would be more than happy to relocate if their house burned down?

It's called freedom of choice.

I think this is the worst argument I've ever heard anyone make on any subject ever. It's $40. Fires aren't always neatly compartmentalised only affecting non-payers. It stops people dying, perhaps your loved ones. It's $40. It's the fire service, not a Stalinist death camp.

Jesus wept.

"Help, help! I'm being oppressed by the fire service! I demand the right to choose who stops my family from burning to death, or even the right to allow them to burn to death if I so see fit. ****ing commies with their universal fire service that even helps the undeserving. Society's gone to the dogs, I tell thee!"

Do you also advocate hiring your own private neighborhood militia to defend yourself against the Russians and Chinese?

"People should be able to opt-in to the army, Navy and Air Force. If you don't want to pay, then ISIS can just invade your house and establish a caliphate there. It will be your own fault. Don't tell me I didn't warn you!"

 

[buddhist]

Actually we tried that method here in the US to begin with. There were competing fire fighting services in all big cities, which led to massive confusion due to different companies using different size couplings for their hoses... firefighters actually getting into fistfights over who was responsible for a burning building while the structure burned to the ground... fires that could have been contained getting out of control because the building owner didn't have a contract with a firefighter service so one one tried to put it out until it started to spread... etc. After a series of devastating fires in major cities throughout the nation it was decided that for the sake of the common good that cities needed to provide firefighting services for the entire city. Government services like firefighting, police, sewage & water, libraries, have all been put into place because experience has taught us that some services for the common good are required for the communal society we all live in to function.

Most cities are private (incorporated), and those who live within them are actually on private property. If I choose to live on private property, then yes, I would have to agree to its owner's laws.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's called libertarianism.

Or narcissism. Toma-y-to, toma-h-to.

 

[Yerda]

And that's my choice to make, isn't it?

Yes, you can leave to live somewhere without forced taxation.