Capitalism is Killing the Planet

[Wildswanderer]

Some see ignorance on climate change as a virtue!

The climate has always changed.

 

[Stevicus]

How can voters be motivated to care more?

Perhaps by giving them more say? Or by giving them a bigger stake in the society. The thing about socialism is that it gives everyone an equal stake in society - a collective partnership.

 

[Secret Chief]

So things should remain as they are?
Or you'd replace capitalism with what....socialism?
Communism? Feudalism? Hunter gatherism?

I responded to this in #133. We're in danger of going round in circles. I would prefer a leftwing economy. I don't see it as about to happen any time soon. I think global warming will put paid to the plans of homo sapiens. The disease will kill itself, hopefully.

 

[Secret Chief]

The climate has always changed.

So you know nothing about what is happening now then. Or if you do, let those people at COP26 know that they are wasting their time.

 

[Revoltingest]

Perhaps by giving them more say?

They're not using the say they have to the extent
they could to advance environmental protection.

Look at even liberal towns like mine, wherein they
oppose green measures like higher density housing,
solar panels (unsightly), wind turbines (unsightly).

Or by giving them a bigger stake in the society.

Who has a bigger stake than the populace?

The thing about socialism is that it gives everyone an equal stake in society - a collective partnership.

History doesn't show that the people owning the
means of production gives them more power in
how their country is run. It merely becomes highly
centralized in the hands of single party government.
To claim otherwise is unevidenced.

Advocating for replacing capitalism with socialism
reminds me of fundies who see every problem as
caused by taking God out of the classroom. It's a
illusion that all societal ills are solved by remaking
the world & humans into their utopian vision.
Hasn't happened. Won't happen

 

[Revoltingest]

I responded to this in #133. We're in danger of going round in circles. I would prefer a leftwing economy. I don't see it as about to happen any time soon. I think global warming will put paid to the plans of homo sapiens. The disease will kill itself, hopefully.

Humanity will survive global warming handily.
But there'll be some messy coping...
- Shorelines moving far inward, flooding cities & some entire countries.
- Massive population migration to higher ground.
- Much new construction required.

 

[metis]

I don't believe we are killing the planet like some seem to. The USA for example has a lot less pollution in many ways then we used to.

We've made significant progress, but it's way too early to spike the ball.

 

[Stevicus]

They're not using the say they have to the extent
they could to advance environmental protection.

Look at even liberal towns like mine, wherein they
oppose green measures like higher density housing,
solar panels (unsightly), wind turbines (unsightly).

Well, maybe they're not that liberal.

A sizable percentage of the population doesn't even vote, mainly because they don't think their votes matter. Beyond that, in public discourse, I've noticed a tendency where the common people are belittled and ridiculed, making it seem as if their opinions don't even matter. So, if their voices are not being heard or wantonly ignored, then it might make people believe that they have little to no say, which leads to apathy in society.

Who has a bigger stake than the populace?

Individually, the elite have a far greater stake in the society and political system. That's why they're far more motivated and compelled to defend it. The masses can sometimes be manipulated by symbols like flags and/or abstract ideals such as national pride and patriotism. But on issues such as climate change, this can be problematic, since nationalism is antithetical to global cooperation for the sake of environmental protection.

History doesn't show that the people owning the
means of production gives them more power in
how their country is run. It merely becomes highly
centralized in the hands of single party government.
To claim otherwise is unevidenced.

The history is much more complicated than you're making it out to be. The McCarthyite view of the world and its history was superficial and one-sided at best. It's extremely xenophobic, melodramatic, sanctimonious, and self-righteous. Kind of like Christians who think that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

Advocating for replacing capitalism with socialism
reminds me of fundies who see every problem as
caused by taking God out of the classroom. It's a
illusion that all societal ills are solved by remaking
the world & humans into their utopian vision.

Meh.

Hasn't happened. Won't happen

A lot of things probably won't happen, such as a reversal of climate change or world peace. We're all doomed in the long run.

But you're right, I tend to agree that the bulk of the populace probably won't go for socialism or any ideological position involving social justice or global responsibility. Since the 1980s, the political culture has been focused on narcissism, individualism, greed, and selfishness so much that it's become near impossible to promote or encourage cooperation. Look at how much defiance there is on a number of issues, such as masks, vaccines, climate change - you name it. A lot of people simply don't want to hear it anymore, and they're brazenly defiant almost to the point of self-destruction (and anyone else they can take with them).

The capitalist mentality has devolved into a "what's in it for me" attitude which has permeated all levels of society. And now, the elite are showing visible frustration because they can't get people to cooperate and wear masks, take the vaccine, accept measures to bring about climate change. You mentioned it above when you said people opposed wind farms and solar panels because they're "too unsightly." People are unwilling to forego a little bit of scenery for the greater good.

This is the mentality which is out there. This is why people don't care.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, maybe they're not that liberal.

The illiberal liberal is a common critter.

A sizable percentage of the population doesn't even vote, mainly because they don't think their votes matter.

Liberals are always telling them that votes don't matter.
The oligarchy decides the outcome even before the election.

Beyond that, in public discourse, I've noticed a tendency where the common people are belittled and ridiculed, making it seem as if their opinions don't even matter. So, if their voices are not being heard or wantonly ignored, then it might make people believe that they have little to no say, which leads to apathy in society.

If this victim mentality prevents them from voting,
then perhaps we're better off with them abstaining.

Individually, the elite have a far greater stake in the society and political system. That's why they're far more motivated and compelled to defend it. The masses can sometimes be manipulated by symbols like flags and/or abstract ideals such as national pride and patriotism. But on issues such as climate change, this can be problematic, since nationalism is antithetical to global cooperation for the sake of environmental protection.

That sounds like providing the masses with an reason
to not care. Swapping out one elite (capitalists) for
another (socialists) appears to be no solution at all.

The history is much more complicated than you're making it out to be.

It's much simpler than you attempt to make it appear.
Every attempt at socialism has resulted in oppression
of the masses by the elite. Oh...famine too.

The McCarthyite view of the world and its history was superficial and one-sided at best. It's extremely xenophobic, melodramatic, sanctimonious, and self-righteous. Kind of like Christians who think that they're right and everyone else is wrong.

Can't blame the woes of socialist states on McCarthy.
He didn't inspire Stalin.

A lot of things probably won't happen, such as a reversal of climate change or world peace. We're all doomed in the long run.

Not if people believe that socialism is the solution.

But you're right, I tend to agree that the bulk of the populace probably won't go for socialism or any ideological position involving social justice or global responsibility.

Socialism never does well in providing social justice.
Only a greater proportion of the masses being brought low.

The capitalist mentality has devolved into a "what's in it for me" attitude which has permeated all levels of society.

The socialist attitude has always devolved into an
elite class ruling the lowly masses with an iron fist.
Not a better alternative IMO.

 

[Stevicus]

The illiberal liberal is a common critter.

Liberals are always telling them that votes don't matter.
The oligarchy decides the outcome even before the election.

If this victim mentality prevents them from voting,
then perhaps we're better off with them abstaining.

The key thing is to try to change that "victim mentality" and transform it into resolute activism to build a better society. That's one thing that socialists have proven able to do, by riling up the masses and bringing about revolutionary changes.

That sounds like providing the masses with an reason
to not care. Swapping out one elite (capitalists) for
another (socialists) appears to be no solution at all.

Theoretically, socialism doesn't really have an elite. Everyone is equal and everything (including power) is shared.

It's much simpler than you attempt to make it appear.
Every attempt at socialism has resulted in oppression
of the masses by the elite. Oh...famine too.

Can't blame the woes of socialist states on McCarthy.
He didn't inspire Stalin.

McCarthy inspired Western perceptions of socialism and socialist states which were later shown to be inaccurate and wildly exaggerated. I've been there. I've seen it with my own eyes. It was nothing at all like you and McCarthy would make it out to be. True, they did have some hard times in the beginning (which wasn't really their fault, as they inherited quite a mess), but things started to get better with time.

Not if people believe that socialism is the solution.

Socialism never does well in providing social justice.
Only a greater proportion of the masses being brought low.

The socialist attitude has always devolved into an
elite class ruling the lowly masses with an iron fist.
Not a better alternative IMO.

They didn't rule over "the lowly masses" with an iron fist. The vast majority of the population survived, and the collective remained intact and viable. Their "iron fist" was directed at certain select people. They did use capital punishment, but that was a different time, even before Western liberals started questioning whether capital punishment was truly just. I can't answer for everything, but just because a government uses capital punishment on occasion doesn't necessarily mean a "broken system." One doesn't have anything to do with the other.

 

[Revoltingest]

The key thing is to try to change that "victim mentality" and transform it into resolute activism to build a better society. That's one thing that socialists have proven able to do, by riling up the masses and bringing about revolutionary changes. .

I prefer changes for the better.
Instead of the chaos of revolution, consider evolution.
Convince people to want improvement, & to vote accordingly.

 

[Wildswanderer]

So you know nothing about what is happening now then. Or if you do, let those people at COP26 know that they are wasting their time.

Those people are definitely wasting our money and their time.