Catholic - Christian (Same or Different)

[metis]

Because Catholicism is of Rome and fundamentalists often think this is the Babylon in Revelation, it can't be part of Christendom.

Yep, but what many of them don't know is that "Babylon the Great" is a cloaked reference to the Roman Empire, and that Peter's saying he was in "Babylon" uses the feminine variation of that name, thus meaning the city of Rome.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Yep, but what many of them don't know is that "Babylon the Great" is a cloaked reference to the Roman Empire, and that Peter's saying he was in "Babylon" uses the feminine variation of that name, thus meaning the city of Rome.

When you find out the deeper meanings, it gets super interesting.

 

[pearl]

This is clearly enough to cause irreparable dissention within any once-united faith.

Probably, as it stands now the Orthodox accept ‘primacy of honour,’ and not the primacy of jurisdiction.

 

[metis]

Papal supremacy and authority, the vicar of Christ.

This is a carryover from Peter being chosen and directed by Jesus to "feed my sheep", plus Jesus' giving of his name that refers to "rock", and this was repeated by Ignatius of Antioch in a letter to Clement 1 at the end of the 1st century or beginning of the 2nd with the special designation as being the Bishop of Rome. But the more important thing along this line deals with the bishops as a group because of the collaboration between them, which did become increasingly more difficult due to distance and some dissention.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yeah, he''s been dead a while now, thank God. A huge, bigoted Northern Irish Protestant pastor, with a face like a ham and a voice like a foghorn.

Struck up what seemed a genuinely warm friendship with former IRA man Martin McGuiness in his latter years. Very odd, that, but seems to show there is no political, religious, or idealogical divide between adversaries, which cannot be bridged if the will is there.

 

[sojourner]

Are Catholic and Christian the same, of are thy different?

The Catholic Church is one expression of the Christian faith. There are many expressions of the Christian faith.

 

[sojourner]

Which I've always found weird. I mean, even if they think the Catholics are wrong in their beliefs, "Christian" doesn't imply "right about everything."

Yes it does. Surety is their salvation.

 

[exchemist]

Struck up what seemed a genuinely warm friendship with former IRA man Martin McGuiness in his latter years. Very odd, that, but seems to show there is no political, religious, or idealogical divide between adversaries, which cannot be bridged if the will is there.

Yes, I give him some credit for realising his error at the last. But the guy had spent the previous 40 years devoted to whipping up anti-Catholic prejudice and violence. I'm not going to sing his praises too loudly for helping, eventually, to clear up the mess he was largely responsible for creating, throughout his adult life.

 

[sojourner]

This is nice, but not quite correct. For example, there was a distinct church in the British Isles, centered around the ministry of Colmcille, early on, before Rome asserted its authority there. The Synod of Whitby at Northumbria in 664 CE determined that the church in the British Isles would submit to Rome. So the break with Rome in Tudor England was not the beginning of the Anglican movement. The Anglican Church began long before the Great Schism.

 

[sojourner]

It depends on what Christian means. If it means a disciple of Jesus, as it was originally, I don't think they are, because person is truly a disciple of Jesus, when he remains in the word of Jesus.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews who had believed him, "If you remain in my word, then you are truly my disciples. You will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
John 8:31-32

You don’t think Catholics are disciples of Jesus?

 

[sojourner]

I don’t believe they are the same. I was born into a Catholic family and baptized into the Catholic Church as an infant, but I did not become a Christian until over thirty years later when I actually understood I needed Jesus Christ (not a church) as my Savior and personally trusted Him alone for forgiveness if my sins and eternal life.

The church is the body of Christ. Faith, life, salvation — none of it is an individual venture. That’s where we’ve gone wrong. The faith is all about right relationship snd the interconnectedness of all things. We are only really “saved” when we remember that truth of relationship.

 

[sojourner]

According to my definition of Christian, the true Christian is extremely rare. Most professed Christians/Catholics only accept parts of Christ’s Words but reject others or interpret them to mean other than what they mean for exclusivity and supremacy purposes. I do not believe a Catholic is true Christian nor current Christians following the authoritative teachings of Jesus. They all follow I believe, clergy, priests, pastors, popes - anyone but Jesus.

Catholics today I believe worship the idol of personality not God and revere statues in churches as well as bow before priests etc. The original message taught by Jesus I believe, has been replaced with man made doctrines and dogma leaving true Christianity abandoned long ago to be replaced by a counterfeit doctrine invented by priests and clergy which borders on the superstitious. (I.e.Bread and wine into body and blood of Jesus)

What exists today I believe, is a shell of what Christ taught. Just about every Christian/Catholic I speak to repeats the words of their pastor and his interpretation of scripture.

Had they not abandoned the original teachings of Jesus and replaced them with superstitious dogma, I don’t believe their religion would be suffering such an enormous decline, as we live in an age of science and reason where superstition is being frowned upon. Disunity and division arose because they failed to ‘love one another’ and so split into thousands of sects, pretty much useless to humanity as a uniting force.

There are wonderful Christians and priests but the damage of schisms along with illogical man made doctrines have rendered the current day clergy run Christianity impotent.

This sounds knee-jerk reactionary to me. I don’t believe you understand the vehicles of the Faith, or the nature of the church, or the nature of established belief systems, or the nature of the clergy. What you describe simply isn’t what is.

 

[1213]

You don’t think Catholics are disciples of Jesus?

Maybe some of them can be. But, at least their leaders seem to have own doctrines and don’t seem to remain in teachings of Jesus, which is why I think they are not.

 

[1213]

So, you are just reverting to that form of religious bigotry, especially as you just stereotyped us again? Maybe actually try and take Jesus' advice of "judge ye not..." and not somehow think that we're all the same.

Sorry, I thought all Catholic go by the Catholic doctrines. You have contradictory ideas and teachings?

 

[DNB]

You choose to ignore what unites us, the core of Catholic faith.

But, ecumenism is a compromise that should not necessarily be tolerated, depending on the factitious issues, of course.
For me, as an adamantly non-denominational Christian, I cannot accept many dogma that are definitive of the Catholic church, and thus, with a clear conscience must remain estranged.
Papal supremacy is one of them, that, for me, to accept it, is to degrade Christ. My only point is, much cannot be reconciled.

 

[DNB]

That's why I said basically. There is always exceptions.

Understood, thanks!

 

[DNB]

Probably, as it stands now the Orthodox accept ‘primacy of honour,’ and not the primacy of jurisdiction.

I see, but, which still disallows reconciliation.
But, again, Papal primacy was just one issue, there is still the Filioque clause, and I'm not sure what the Eastern's stance is on Mariology, intercession of the saints, purgatory, ...
For me, none are acceptable that I can regard the Catholic church as either apostolic or Biblical.

 

[DNB]

This is a carryover from Peter being chosen and directed by Jesus to "feed my sheep", plus Jesus' giving of his name that refers to "rock", and this was repeated by Ignatius of Antioch in a letter to Clement 1 at the end of the 1st century or beginning of the 2nd with the special designation as being the Bishop of Rome. But the more important thing along this line deals with the bishops as a group because of the collaboration between them, which did become increasingly more difficult due to distance and some dissention.

Yes, I'm familiar with the history and justification of the doctrine, but, of course, do not find the qualification duly substantiated. Basically, all the apostles were given the same authority and jurisdiction as Peter.

Matthew 18:15-19
15If your brother sins against you,c go and confront him privately. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’d 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, regard him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.18Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
19Again, I tell you truly that if two of you on the earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by My Father in heaven. 20For where two or three gather together in My name, there am I with them.”

 

[InChrist]

The church is the body of Christ. Faith, life, salvation — none of it is an individual venture. That’s where we’ve gone wrong. The faith is all about right relationship snd the interconnectedness of all things. We are only really “saved” when we remember that truth of relationship.

I don’t deny the church is the body of Christ, nor the importance of relationship and fellowship amongst believers. I am just saying there isn’t one visible, organized church group that is the exclusive “true church”. I believe the church/ body of Christ is composed of all believers who have received salvation & new life in Jesus Christ.

 

[loverofhumanity]

This sounds knee-jerk reactionary to me. I don’t believe you understand the vehicles of the Faith, or the nature of the church, or the nature of established belief systems, or the nature of the clergy. What you describe simply isn’t what is.

I was born and raised a Catholic and there are many very nice people but I eventually awoke to the fact that doctrines like holy communion, baptism, confession, the trinity, penance and mass are all man made superstitions and so abandoned them.

God gave man a mind to see with his own eyes not the eyes of others. To think for ourselves using reason and logic not just blindly accept what smooth talkers say. Once I began questioning I realised I was being lied to. I discovered that Buddha, Krishna, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha’u’llah were all sent by God but told by priests they were false Prophets.

I was even told Christ had not returned when He already had. So although there are good people and I love Christians, they worship the views and thoughts of the clergy which I believe has led them far astray from Jesus and God and until they really open their minds, I think that they are stuck in the mindset that they are the one and only custodians of truth.