Catholic - Christian (Same or Different)

[Clear]

Hi @DNB and @metis


DNB said : “Usage defined Canon.”
Metis replied ; “False again, and we know this to be true as there were records kept of the general process and results as it went on for over 1/2 a century…” (post #111)
DNB replied : “Yes, but 90% of the decision was based on tradition - what the apostolic fathers wrote about and referred to.” (post #116)

Hi @metis

You mentioned "records kept" of the process by which the Catholic Church determined it's canon (which is popular in the west but still different than other canons)

Can you give us 5 examples from the “records kept of the general process and results” regarding who these specific discussants were, and 5 examples of what these specific discussants actually said that determined the specific, actual choice to include 5 specific books that were included in the western (i.e. "roman" Catholic) Canon and 5 examples of what specific discussants actually said that determined the actual choice to exclude just 5 specific books that were actually excluded from the western canon the roman church decided would be it's canon?

I've heard the claim regarding actual "discussions" and "debates" over books and "criteria" claimed regarding how these choices were made, but not seen much specific historical data supporting this claim as an actual, historical, process.


Thanks for any additional information.

Clear
ειδρτζειω

 

[1213]

No, it simply does not say as such, especially since the word "heaven" is different.

Again, you continue to shoot yourself in the foot because what you've posted is an interpretation-- yours.

King James says literally, without my interpretation:

And God called the firmament Heaven.
Gen. 1:8

The original word for "heaven" in that is "שמים", which by what I know can be translated:

1) heaven, heavens, sky
1a) visible heavens, sky
1a1) as abode of the stars
1a2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)

Why do you think it means something else than the sky, atmosphere?

 

[metis]

King James says literally, without my interpretation:

And God called the firmament Heaven.
Gen. 1:8

The original word for "heaven" in that is "שמים", which by what I know can be translated:

1) heaven, heavens, sky
1a) visible heavens, sky
1a1) as abode of the stars
1a2) as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
1b) Heaven (as the abode of God)

Why do you think it means something else than the sky, atmosphere?

In English from the Hebrew, the word means "expanse", and the pre-Christian belief was generally that it was a solid dome with water above it which partially opened up to allow for rain. Under this dome were "lights" [stars, the sun, and the moon], and angels could get down from above the dome using ladders. Also, building the Tower of Babel was considered an insult to God as men tried to get to heaven through their own means.

The point is that firmament was interpreted as being firm. If you disagree with that as I do, then that's because we are interpreting this differently from them, which is what my main point has been.

The log & the short of it: we all interpret, thus the "Bible simply does not speak for itself" as far as negating interpretation. Anyone who has been in any serious biblical studies well knows this.

fini

 

[sojourner]

By what I know, they say Jesus is God all though Jesus says in the Bible:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

And there are others, which you may think are not actually teachings of Jesus, like the second commandment that they seem to ignore and denying marriage.

You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
Exodus 20:4-6

But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding marriage…
1 Tim. 4:1-3

Well… you’ve mentioned two teachings of Jesus. How can you be certain that they’re actual teachings of Jesus, and not something the author of John said he said?

The other two references aren’t even quotations of Jesus, and one of them is from an author who didn’t know of Jesus, because he was prior to Jesus.

 

[sojourner]

I understood you to be saying that Jesus instituted the sacraments envisioning a priesthood.

No.

 

[1213]

Well… you’ve mentioned two teachings of Jesus. How can you be certain that they’re actual teachings of Jesus, and not something the author of John said he said?
....

If they were not teachings of Jesus, why would he credit to Jesus and not take himself the credit?

 

[1213]

...
The point is that firmament was interpreted as being firm. If you disagree with that as I do, then that's because we are interpreting this differently from them, which is what my main point has been....

Sorry, I don’t think I interpret it. I take it as it is written.

 

[metis]

Sorry, I don’t think I interpret it. I take it as it is written.

Frankly, I doubt that VERY much because it can be so natural to interpret without realizing it. Serious Bible students know better because two intelligent and well-informed individuals can read the same narrative and come up with different conclusions.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Sorry, I don’t think I interpret it. I take it as it is written.

There is no such thing as reading something without interpreting it.

 

[1213]

There is no such thing as reading something without interpreting it.

If I take something as it is written, how it is interpreting? For example, if it is written “car is blue” and I take it as it is, “car is blue”, how have I interpreted it?

I can agree that the meaning of some writings may be unclear. In the case of the Bible, it explains what it means. No need to make own explanations or interpretations.

 

[metis]

There is no such thing as reading something without interpreting it.

Exactly, plus context is also important at times, as are the various use of symbolisms.

 

[metis]

If I take something as it is written, how it is interpreting? For example, if it is written “car is blue” and I take it as it is, “car is blue”, how have I interpreted it?

I can agree that the meaning of some writings may be unclear. In the case of the Bible, it explains what it means. No need to make own explanations or interpretations.

OK, then how in the world can you then actually begin to understand that which is in the book of Revelation? For example, is he who's "666" going to emerge with "666" written on his forehead??? [actually, he probably already existed almost 2000 years ago]

 

[1213]

... For example, is he who's "666" going to emerge with "666" written on his forehead???....

Please show first the scripture you are referring to.

 

[Muffled]

Frankly, I doubt that VERY much because it can be so natural to interpret without realizing it. Serious Bible students know better because two intelligent and well-informed individuals can read the same narrative and come up with different conclusions.

I believe even the translations are interpretive to some extent because one word can have multiple meanings depending on the context. One has to interpret how the meaning fits into the context.

 

[metis]

Please show first the scripture you are referring to.

You don't know?

OK, here: Revelation 13[18] This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

 

[metis]

I believe even the translations are interpretive to some extent because one word can have multiple meanings depending on the context. One has to interpret how the meaning fits into the context.

Exactly.

My wife is from Italy, and some words in Italian are not easily translatable into English.

 

[1213]

You don't know?

OK, here: Revelation 13[18] This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its number is six hundred and sixty-six.

And earlier you said: “For example, is he who's "666" going to emerge with "666" written on his forehead???”. Bible tells 666 is the number of a man. It does not say that the man that is 666 is going to emerge with that number on his forehead. Bible tells, it is the mark that is forced to people (on arm or forehead). I don’t believe the one who forces will use it himself, but, Bible doesn’t say he will not use it.

Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is six hundred sixty-six.
Rev. 13:18

 

[metis]

And earlier you said: “For example, is he who's "666" going to emerge with "666" written on his forehead???”. Bible tells 666 is the number of a man. It does not say that the man that is 666 is going to emerge with that number on his forehead. Bible tells, it is the mark that is forced to people (on arm or forehead). I don’t believe the one who forces will use it himself, but, Bible doesn’t say he will not use it.
Here is wisdom. He who has understanding, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. His number is six hundred sixty-six.
Rev. 13:18

Again, obvious proof that interpretation is necessary as any serious student of the Bible well knows. Without interpretation, Revelation becomes nothing more than a child's nightmarish fantasy.