Catholics set to pass Anglicans as leading UK church

[michel]

Catholics set to pass Anglicans as leading UK church




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article1386939.ece
Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent


Roman Catholicism is set to become the dominant religion in Britain for the first time since the Reformation because of massive migration from Catholic countries across the world.

Catholic parishes will swell by hundreds of thousands over the next few years after managing years of decline, according to a new report, as both legal and illegal migrants enter the country.

It says that the influx of migrants could be the Catholic community’s “greatest threat” or its “greatest opportunity”.

While in some places the Catholic Church has responded positively, in others it has been “overwhelmed” by the scale of the challenge. The growth of Catholicism in Britain comes as the established Church of England and the Anglican provinces in Scotland, Wales and Ireland face continuing, if slow, decline.
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Average Sunday attendance of both churches stood even at nearly one million in 2005, according to the latest statistics available for England and Wales, but the attendance at Mass is expected to soar.

A Church of England spokesman said: “I don’t think you can talk in terms of decline in the Church of England. It is fairly clear that with small fluctuations the worshipping population of the Church of England is 1.7 million a month. That is actually a stable figure.”

The report describes how many migrants have few or no documents, little or no English, no job to go to and nowhere to live.

The Catholic Church is the first port of call for thousands when they find themselves in difficulty, with up to 95 per cent from countries such as Poland being practising Catholics. Some churches find that they are being used as both job centres and social welfare offices. Most of the migrants settle in London, where some parishes are putting on Sunday Masses from 8am to 8pm to cope, the report, carried out by the Von Hugel Institute at Cambridge, found.

The report calls on the Catholic hierarchy to act urgently to help the migrants and their hard-pressed clergy by investing thousands of pounds in new resources.
Officially the Church is welcoming the migrants, but nearly all bishops and clergy have been taken by surprise by the influx, which took off last year and has yet to be reflected in official Mass attendance and membership figures.
But they acknowledge that the immigration is changingthe face of Catholicism across Britain.

From being an Irish-English church in a mindset of managing steady decline, the Church has within the space of 12 months found itself having to countenance an unprecedented expansion and change in its ethnic make-up.

Figures for 2005 show that there are 4.2 million Catholics in England and Wales, under one fifth the 25 million baptised Anglicans and double the number of Muslims.
But the real Mass attendance figure is higher by many hundreds of thousands. Precise numbers are impossible to obtain because of the irregular status of so many of the migrants, who prefer to keep a low profile. Some would only talk to researchers for the report through their priests, and some clergy even refusedto be interviewed for fear of attracting attention.

But the head of the Polish vicariate told The Timesthat the number of Poles in London had doubled since their country’s EU accession to at least 600,000. According to the report, the number recorded attending Mass represents a fraction of the total number of baptised Catholic migrants now in London.
The Catholic dioceses of Brentwood, Southwark and Westminster, which cover Essex, London and Kent, commissioned the report to investigate the needs of migrants in London after a Mass in Westminster last May gave an indication of the scale of the change.

Researchers at Cambridge surveyed 1,000 migrants from diocesan parishes, ethnic chaplaincies and the Polish vicariate, ran focus groups and interviewed clergy.

 

[James the Persian]

I'm not surprised at all. Just about everyone I know who actually attends a Church of England service on a regular basis is old, unlike the Roman Catholics down the road, or us for that matter. I think we'll probably outstrip the Anglican Church here within the next century, partly because we are growing ourselves due to immigration and converts (not a few ex-Anglican ones) and partly because the Church of England, with it's overwhelmingly aged congregations is bound to decline still further as the core worshippers pass on.

James

 

[michel]

I'm not surprised at all. Just about everyone I know who actually attends a Church of England service on a regular basis is old, unlike the Roman Catholics down the road, or us for that matter. I think we'll probably outstrip the Anglican Church here within the next century, partly because we are growing ourselves due to immigration and converts (not a few ex-Anglican ones) and partly because the Church of England, with it's overwhelmingly aged congregations is bound to decline still further as the core worshippers pass on.

James

I can imagine; besides, as far as I am concerned, the Church of England is the Roman Catholic church without accepting the Pope as the head of the Church, and with the lax attitude towards divorce, contraception.

I have chatted with Victor about the differences, and Frankly, they are not that great. I thought this would please you guys (though, of course, you are not Roman Catholic); do you see Eastern Orthodoxy being established more and more in England because of the immigrants ?

 

[James the Persian]

I can imagine; besides, as far as I am concerned, the Church of England is the Roman Catholic church without accepting the Pope as the head of the Church, and with the lax attitude towards divorce, contraception.

I have chatted with Victor about the differences, and Frankly, they are not that great. I thought this would please you guys (though, of course, you are not Roman Catholic); do you see Eastern Orthodoxy being established more and more in England because of the immigrants ?

Yes, but not just because of the immigrants. There are actually quite a number of all convert parishes too (such as the one in Doncaster). The thing is we are growing at a phenomenal rate here, mostly down to immigration since the fall of communism it's true but also because of a very high rate of conversions, much higher I suspect than any other church in the country. The thing is that because we're starting from such small beginnings even a massive rate of increase such as we have doesn't appear to actually make us much more visible (though given that a visit from Archbishop Gregorios to the church in Leeds made it onto the local news, we are growing a bit more visible).

The RCC here is probably growing faster in terms of numbers added than we are, but in terms of rate of increase, I very much doubt it. Of course, I'd prefer it if we overtook them too, but I doubt it will happen. As it is anything's got to be preferable to that weird social club of a church called the Church of England. I can still see the bemused looks of fellow Orthodox at the massive publicity given to the Archbishop of York's couple of days of fasting for Lebanon last year (publicity that was clearly encouraged by the Archbishop, given his tent in York minster). It makes you wonder when such a senior member of the church seems more interested in political stunts than in faith - such that what should be an important and private personal practice such as fasting gets used so cynically.

James

 

[Quiddity]

I'm rather surprised and pleased at the same time. I always thought religion as a whole was on a decrease in Europe and more specifically in England. The number of non-theists by ratio was higher in that neck of the woods since I last checked.

Roman Catholicism in the United States is growing immensely. For two reasons really. Great number of Protestants from different denominations are becoming RC's and the millions migrating from Southern America, which is almost 95% RC.

Two years ago the Pope allowed over 200 married men become priest. All of them were Pastors from protestant denominations of different flavors. It was rather neat to watch them come together.

Africa, Canada, and Australia are also growing in RC numbers.

 

[lunamoth]

Bummer. There go the plans for world domination.

 

[athanasius]

Catholics set to pass Anglicans as leading UK church




http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article1386939.ece
Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent


Roman Catholicism is set to become the dominant religion in Britain for the first time since the Reformation because of massive migration from Catholic countries across the world.

Catholic parishes will swell by hundreds of thousands over the next few years after managing years of decline, according to a new report, as both legal and illegal migrants enter the country.

It says that the influx of migrants could be the Catholic community’s “greatest threat” or its “greatest opportunity”.

While in some places the Catholic Church has responded positively, in others it has been “overwhelmed” by the scale of the challenge. The growth of Catholicism in Britain comes as the established Church of England and the Anglican provinces in Scotland, Wales and Ireland face continuing, if slow, decline.
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Average Sunday attendance of both churches stood even at nearly one million in 2005, according to the latest statistics available for England and Wales, but the attendance at Mass is expected to soar.

A Church of England spokesman said: “I don’t think you can talk in terms of decline in the Church of England. It is fairly clear that with small fluctuations the worshipping population of the Church of England is 1.7 million a month. That is actually a stable figure.”

The report describes how many migrants have few or no documents, little or no English, no job to go to and nowhere to live.

The Catholic Church is the first port of call for thousands when they find themselves in difficulty, with up to 95 per cent from countries such as Poland being practising Catholics. Some churches find that they are being used as both job centres and social welfare offices. Most of the migrants settle in London, where some parishes are putting on Sunday Masses from 8am to 8pm to cope, the report, carried out by the Von Hugel Institute at Cambridge, found.

The report calls on the Catholic hierarchy to act urgently to help the migrants and their hard-pressed clergy by investing thousands of pounds in new resources.
Officially the Church is welcoming the migrants, but nearly all bishops and clergy have been taken by surprise by the influx, which took off last year and has yet to be reflected in official Mass attendance and membership figures.
But they acknowledge that the immigration is changingthe face of Catholicism across Britain.

From being an Irish-English church in a mindset of managing steady decline, the Church has within the space of 12 months found itself having to countenance an unprecedented expansion and change in its ethnic make-up.

Figures for 2005 show that there are 4.2 million Catholics in England and Wales, under one fifth the 25 million baptised Anglicans and double the number of Muslims.
But the real Mass attendance figure is higher by many hundreds of thousands. Precise numbers are impossible to obtain because of the irregular status of so many of the migrants, who prefer to keep a low profile. Some would only talk to researchers for the report through their priests, and some clergy even refusedto be interviewed for fear of attracting attention.

But the head of the Polish vicariate told The Timesthat the number of Poles in London had doubled since their country’s EU accession to at least 600,000. According to the report, the number recorded attending Mass represents a fraction of the total number of baptised Catholic migrants now in London.
The Catholic dioceses of Brentwood, Southwark and Westminster, which cover Essex, London and Kent, commissioned the report to investigate the needs of migrants in London after a Mass in Westminster last May gave an indication of the scale of the change.

Researchers at Cambridge surveyed 1,000 migrants from diocesan parishes, ethnic chaplaincies and the Polish vicariate, ran focus groups and interviewed clergy.

I know many anglicans are converting to our church(Catholic Church) because of the lack of moral and doctrinal orthodoxy in the anglican communion. But then again what did they expect, when there Church was founded on the basis of adultery, murder, and pride, and disobedience and has no real infallible head with apostolic authority to lead it in moral causes.

 

[lunamoth]

I know many anglicans are converting to our church(Catholic Church) because of the lack of moral and doctrinal orthodoxy in the anglican communion. But then again what did they expect, when there Church was founded on the basis of adultery, murder, and pride, and disobedience and has no real infallible head with apostolic authority to lead it in moral causes.

OK, so the C of E has been called a "weird social club" and now we're based upon adultery, murder, and pride. :sarcastic

Very nice.

 

[athanasius]

OK, so the C of E has been called a "weird social club" and now we're based upon adultery, murder, and pride. :sarcastic

Very nice.

Very nice indeed! Well Didn't Henry want a divorce and remarry because he couldn't have a male child? Doesn't Jesus condemn this as adultery in Matt 19? Didn't Henry disobey the Pope? Didn't he set himself up(the king) as the head of the church(Pride)? Didn't Henry have Ann Bolynne murdered?

Many Anglicans are really starting to see this and see the outcome of this in there churches weakness and are converting to the Catholic faith whose leader and Authority for doctrinal "teaching" (not neccessarily action) was founded on the succession of St Peter who was given that office(of prime minister) and founded by Jesus himself.

 

[James the Persian]

OK, so the C of E has been called a "weird social club" and now we're based upon adultery, murder, and pride. :sarcastic

Very nice.

It is a weird social club of a church - there just is no common doctrine in the whole entity and, being Lutheran but in England, I grew up attending the CofE. The only common thread I ever found between various parishes and people was the social aspect (not all of which is bad, but it's hardly a basis for a church).

As far as beliefs went, a low Church Protestant would feel happy in one, whilst down the road the next church would practically be Roman Catholic. There are even clergy, and senior ones, in the CofE that deny the most basic of Christian dogmas and in so doing really aren't Christian at all - most of the early heretical groups would even have been shocked by some of the things I've heard some CofE bishops say.

That's not to say there aren't good Christians amongst Anglicans. I've known many (though many sem to be on their way elsewhere) but the church as a whole was created through politics and has been moulded, particularly in the west, through politics too. There's more hope for Anglicanism in the global south, but here it seems to be in terminal decline. The idea of the 'broad church' might have seemed appealing when Anglicans came up with it, but I'm convinced that it is a major part of the reason that the church is dwindling. If you try to believe everything, you'll end up believing nothing.

James

 

[lunamoth]

Hi James, Well naturally I beg to differ. Besides the below comments being primariy just your opinion of things as you see it, and being woefully (and hopefully not intentionally) misinformed, saying that our communion is just a 'weird social club' is not exactly what I'd call conducive to interfaith understanding and tolerance.

It is a weird social club of a church - there just is no common doctrine in the whole entity and, being Lutheran but in England, I grew up attending the CofE. The only common thread I ever found between various parishes and people was the social aspect (not all of which is bad, but it's hardly a basis for a church).

We are united by our litergy, our worship, and Communion. What could be more important than that?

Also, you might want to check out my thread here, our Catechism. It's not exactly 'nothing.' In fact I think a lot of it will ring quite familiar to you.

As far as beliefs went, a low Church Protestant would feel happy in one, whilst down the road the next church would practically be Roman Catholic. There are even clergy, and senior ones, in the CofE that deny the most basic of Christian dogmas and in so doing really aren't Christian at all - most of the early heretical groups would even have been shocked by some of the things I've heard some CofE bishops say.

Well, gee, thanks. :sarcastic But as I said, please check out our Catechism. Our doctrines are those that were found in the united Catholic Church, before you all and Rome split (also for political reasons, I might add). Rome like Original Sin, you don't, we can choose for ourselves. Please don't lecture me on rejecting doctrine. Sheesh.

That's not to say there aren't good Christians amongst Anglicans.

Whew!

I've known many (though many sem to be on their way elsewhere) but the church as a whole was created through politics and has been moulded, particularly in the west, through politics too.

Every church, yours included, was created and moulded through politics. Don't fool yourself.

There's more hope for Anglicanism in the global south, but here it seems to be in terminal decline. The idea of the 'broad church' might have seemed appealing when Anglicans came up with it, but I'm convinced that it is a major part of the reason that the church is dwindling.

That's certainly not my experience. My core beliefs are very very clear and dear to me. Things which have been found to divide over the centuries are easier for a broad church to absorb...and thus makes it a much more inclusive and welcoming place to be.

If you try to believe everything, you'll end up believing nothing.

Harsh. And rather strange considering that most of things you believe, we believe as well.

Anyway, shocked and sorry to hear you have such little respect for the AC.

Have a good one.

luna

 

[kateyes]

Actually I was surprised--because on another forum where I have posted in the past--they were always touting how secular Great Britain was. They seemed pretty firm in this perception--not just as a shift across churches--but a shift away from religion.

 

[lunamoth]

Catholics set to pass Anglicans as leading UK church

Researchers at Cambridge surveyed 1,000 migrants from diocesan parishes, ethnic chaplaincies and the Polish vicariate, ran focus groups and interviewed clergy.

I think the best explanation for this is the same as for the rise of Protestant Fundamentalism in the US. The world is getting overcrowded and less secure, and the political situation is tense. Our leaders too often fan the flames of fear and people are afraid. In fear they turn not only to God, but to strongly authoritative institutions or belief systems that tell us exactly what to do...there is the feeling of security in controlling things like our sexuality when we fear the things we can't control.

 

[sojourner]

I know many anglicans are converting to our church(Catholic Church) because of the lack of moral and doctrinal orthodoxy in the anglican communion. But then again what did they expect, when there Church was founded on the basis of adultery, murder, and pride, and disobedience and has no real infallible head with apostolic authority to lead it in moral causes.

I suppose your own "infallible heads" never dabbled in adultery, thievery, deception, nor did they ever court the political system for their own financial gain and spread of power base. Try to tell me that the DeMedici's were good moral leaders.

Those who live in glass houses...

The truth is that the Church has always been political and has always been corrupted by the human beings who comprise it. we won't get anywhere by pointing fingers and whispering.

 

[Quiddity]

I suppose your own "infallible heads" never dabbled in adultery, thievery, deception, nor did they ever court the political system for their own financial gain and spread of power base. Try to tell me that the DeMedici's were good moral leaders.

Those who live in glass houses...

The truth is that the Church has always been political and has always been corrupted by the human beings who comprise it. we won't get anywhere by pointing fingers and whispering.

I don't think you'll bump into any learned RC or EO that denies such things. But there lies a difference. The CofE wasn't just sinning but seperated on the basis of altering a doctrine. That being marriage.

 

[lunamoth]

I don't think you'll bump into any learned RC or EO that denies such things. But there lies a difference. The CofE wasn't just sinning but seperated on the basis of altering a doctrine. That being marriage.

I think doctrine can be approached in two ways. It can be for teaching and reaching higher in our understanding of God's will or it can be used to draw lines in the sand and divide. God is Love and Unity, man divides. Anything done in the name of God that is not Love is blasphemy.

All that we do here, when we argue and draw lines in the sand and call each other sinners and heretics, is divisive. Who do you think wants to see this happen? God?

I'll submit that I think most of what has gone on in this thread is satanic, my posts included. So, now I'll repent of this.

In His Peace.
Laurie

 

[Quiddity]

I think doctrine can be approached in two ways. It can be for teaching and reaching higher in our understanding of God's will or it can be used to draw lines in the sand and divide. God is Love and Unity, man divides. Anything done in the name of God that is not Love is blasphemy.

All that we do here, when we argue and draw lines in the sand and call each other sinners and heretics, is divisive. Who do you think wants to see this happen? God?

I'll submit that I think most of what has gone on in this thread is satanic, my posts included. So, now I'll repent of this.

In His Peace.
Laurie

Well, I'm certainly a sinner, but I assure you that it's never been my personal style to note the sins of another person or Church. I try my darnest to keep the dialogue on an ideological/doctrinal level in civility and love. If I have ever done otherwise, shame on me and I would apologize for it.

Having said that Laurie it is dishonest to think that the CofE, RC, EO, OO, are creating lines in the sand for divisive reasons. Yes, I'm sure some do that, but there is real disagreements and those disagreements are a reflection upon God's nature. Either God intended marriage like this, or He didn't. The way a Church interprets doctrines is a reflection upon how we see God who is love.

In Love, unity, and charity,
~Victor

 

[michel]

The CofE wasn't just sinning but seperated on the basis of altering a doctrine. That being marriage.

I suppose the good people at the time (1400's to early 1500's) must have had some negativereaction of the unprecedented move on the part of the King - but it seems absurd that he got away with "changing the rules" so absurdly, for personal gain.

I wonder what would happen if the Queen tried to do a similar thing now..........not that I can think of any example.

 

[Quiddity]

I suppose the good people at the time (1400's to early 1500's) must have had some negativereaction of the unprecedented move on the part of the King - but it seems absurd that he got away with "changing the rules" so absurdly, for personal gain.

I wonder what would happen if the Queen tried to do a similar thing now..........not that I can think of any example.

Well, the CofE is still seperated from the Catholic Church for a reason. Even if he didn't get away with it, the seperation is real and it had an affect on CofE as is relevant today.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think you'll bump into any learned RC or EO that denies such things. But there lies a difference. The CofE wasn't just sinning but seperated on the basis of altering a doctrine. That being marriage.

The RC and EO separated on the basis of differeing doctrine, differing polity, etc. Remember the fight over the Filioque Clause?

Again, pointing fingers and saying that one isn't as valid or as good as another gets us nowhere. Remember, the Pope had just as much a hand in the separation of the Church of England as Henry did. The Pope stood to lose political power, as well as personal income. That's the reason why he dawdled so over Henry's dispensation -- not because he had a moral problem with the divorce.

I'm not running down the RCC...I'm pointing out that we all have a hand in divisiveness. We either sink...or swim...together.