Catholics

[Unveiled Artist]

I don't know if this is all Catholic "denominations"; but, I read on our dioceses website in this area that new priests cannot identify as a homosexual (having an LGBTQ sexual orientation or gender identity) even though they have not had any same-gender relations before (or as in other dioceses, I think within four or so years since they do background checks on this).

I put this here only because it most likely would turn into a debate , if new priest are celibate (as many are years before they become priest) and have no sexual relations with either gender, why doesn't the Church want them not to identify themselves as LGBTQ?​

From my experience as a gay woman, identifying oneself as a gay woman just as a identifying as Deaf instead of deaf, Black or Woman of Color, instead of African American, and Roman Catholic instead of Christian, Asatru instead of Pagan, and so forth....are all personal ways we define ourselves and see ourselves in relation to our environment, people, and/or our faiths and so forth.

Here's an example of the priesthood requirements: Office of Arlington Diocese

Number 15: "Not suffer from a disordered sexual orientation, i.e. not consider oneself to be homosexual."

For example, I have Epilepsy and I identity as an individual who suffers from Epilepsy. We don't say Epileptic since it's derogatory. Its perfectly natural to identify this way given I have an illness or disorder. So, if homosexuality is a disorder, why would it make a difference if a priest identifies as homosexual or not? What does that mean other than saying he has a disorder?​

If you have Church documents or anything the Church Roman, Orthodox, or whomever posts in relation to your answer, that would be cool.

Thanks.

 

[Skwim]

FWIW

"Studies find it difficult to quantify specific percentages of Roman Catholic priests who have a homosexual orientation (either openly gay or closeted),.Nevertheless, several studies suggest that the incidence of homosexuality in the Roman Catholic priesthood is much higher than in the general population as a whole.

Studies by Wolf and Sipe from the early 1990s suggest that the percentage of priests in the Catholic Church who admitted to being gay or were in homosexual relationships was well above the national average for the United States of America. Elizabeth Stuart, a former convener of the Catholic Caucus of the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement claimed, "It has been estimated that at least 33 percent of all priests in the RC Church in the United States are homosexual."

The John Jay Report suggested that "homosexual men entered the seminaries in noticeable numbers from the late 1970s through the 1980s", and available figures for homosexual priests in the United States range from 15–58%

One report suggested that since the mid-1980s Roman Catholic priests in the United States were dying from AIDS-related illnesses at a rate four times higher than that of the general population; with most of the cases contracted through same-sex relations, and the cause often concealed on their death certificates. A follow-up study done the next year by the Kansas City Star found AIDS-related death rate among priests was "more than six times" the rate among the general population in the 14 states studied.
​

The relevant part

The 1961 document entitled Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders stated that homosexual men should not be ordained. However, this was left to bishops to enforce, and most did not, holding homosexuals to the same standards of celibate chastity as heterosexual seminarians.
Original source

In November 2005, the Vatican completed an Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders. Publication was made through the Congregation for Catholic Education. According to the new policy, men with "transitory" homosexual leanings may be ordained deacons following three years of prayer and chastity. However, men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" or who are sexually active cannot be ordained. No new moral teaching was contained in the instruction: the instruction proposed by the document is rather towards enhancing vigilance in barring homosexuals from seminaries, and from the priesthood. As the title of the document indicates, it concerned exclusively candidates with homosexual tendencies, not other candidates."
source


.​

 

[Unveiled Artist]

FWIW

"Studies find it difficult to quantify specific percentages of Roman Catholic priests who have a homosexual orientation (either openly gay or closeted),.Nevertheless, several studies suggest that the incidence of homosexuality in the Roman Catholic priesthood is much higher than in the general population as a whole.

Studies by Wolf and Sipe from the early 1990s suggest that the percentage of priests in the Catholic Church who admitted to being gay or were in homosexual relationships was well above the national average for the United States of America. Elizabeth Stuart, a former convener of the Catholic Caucus of the Lesbian and Gay Christian movement claimed, "It has been estimated that at least 33 percent of all priests in the RC Church in the United States are homosexual."

The John Jay Report suggested that "homosexual men entered the seminaries in noticeable numbers from the late 1970s through the 1980s", and available figures for homosexual priests in the United States range from 15–58%

One report suggested that since the mid-1980s Roman Catholic priests in the United States were dying from AIDS-related illnesses at a rate four times higher than that of the general population; with most of the cases contracted through same-sex relations, and the cause often concealed on their death certificates. A follow-up study done the next year by the Kansas City Star found AIDS-related death rate among priests was "more than six times" the rate among the general population in the 14 states studied.
​

The relevant part

The 1961 document entitled Careful Selection And Training Of Candidates For The States Of Perfection And Sacred Orders stated that homosexual men should not be ordained. However, this was left to bishops to enforce, and most did not, holding homosexuals to the same standards of celibate chastity as heterosexual seminarians.
Original source

In November 2005, the Vatican completed an Instruction Concerning the Criteria for the Discernment of Vocations with regard to Persons with Homosexual Tendencies in view of their Admission to the Seminary and to Holy Orders. Publication was made through the Congregation for Catholic Education. According to the new policy, men with "transitory" homosexual leanings may be ordained deacons following three years of prayer and chastity. However, men with "deeply rooted homosexual tendencies" or who are sexually active cannot be ordained. No new moral teaching was contained in the instruction: the instruction proposed by the document is rather towards enhancing vigilance in barring homosexuals from seminaries, and from the priesthood. As the title of the document indicates, it concerned exclusively candidates with homosexual tendencies, not other candidates."
source


.​

I read that when they do background checks for new priest that they interview family, friends, and neighbors et cetera to determine if the new candidate has had sexual relations with either gender.

If someone is openly gay but never did anything and remained celibate, would it be like the military where they discharge people just for identifying as gay not just the act associated with the LGBTQ community which, in itself, is not what makes a person LGBTQ?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

@Skwim I was thinking this a serious question, though. I remember back when way before I went into the Church, I wanted to be a priest. If I were a male an still a practicing Catholic but identify as homosexual while being celibate my whole life, I wonder if I could become a priest. I mean, if homosexuality is a disorder, wouldn't that be like the priesthood saying I can't become a priest because I identify as a person with epilepsy even though I have the condition to begin with? What's about "identification" makes one ineligible for priesthood, is my question.

 

[metis]

@Skwim I was thinking this a serious question, though. I remember back when way before I went into the Church, I wanted to be a priest. If I were a male an still a practicing Catholic but identify as homosexual while being celibate my whole life, I wonder if I could become a priest. I mean, if homosexuality is a disorder, wouldn't that be like the priesthood saying I can't become a priest because I identify as a person with epilepsy even though I have the condition to begin with? What's about "identification" makes one ineligible for priesthood, is my question.

Pope Francis just recently mentioned that the church no longer regards homosexuality as a "disorder" but that acting on it is still considered a sin.

However, as I mentioned on another similar thread of yours, you have the right to go in the direction that you feel is more moral (iow, "let your informed conscience by your guide"). There are many gay Catholics in the church, so that shouldn't stop one from going to mass if they so desire.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Pope Francis just recently mentioned that the church no longer regards homosexuality as a "disorder" but that acting on it is still considered a sin.

However, as I mentioned on another similar thread of yours, you have the right to go in the direction that you feel is more moral (iow, "let your informed conscience by your guide"). There are many gay Catholics in the church, so that shouldn't stop one from going to mass if they so desire.

I can't remember who wrote the CCC but it was one of the earlier popes. I know one Catholic in my home residence was complaining about Francis and his views about homosexuality. I haven't heard of Francis views on homosexuality; since, if I were still practicing, I'd probably hold similar views about homosexuality as mainstream Catholicism just no the disorder part. Only that I learned from experience and being a gay woman, the Church can say nice things about homosexuals but many gay Catholics do want to be married in their own Church and seen as a "gay person" not someone who "has" gay tendencies.

The priest needing to hide that he is gay just nardles my nerves only because it's not an action its an identity. It's like telling someone don't use your first name but just let us call you by how we want to call you, type of thing.

Pet peeve. Not just with the Church just "Church-minded" folks or others call evangelical or protestant. Whatever the case may be, it's not more of an opinion but an insult to who I am.

So it's kinda personal too.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

The Bible saya that if you have sinful thoughts it is just as bad as actually acting in a sinful way. A priest should be pure in thought and action.

 

[metis]

I can't remember who wrote the CCC but it was one of the earlier popes. I know one Catholic in my home residence was complaining about Francis and his views about homosexuality. I haven't heard of Francis views on homosexuality; since, if I were still practicing, I'd probably hold similar views about homosexuality as mainstream Catholicism just no the disorder part. Only that I learned from experience and being a gay woman, the Church can say nice things about homosexuals but many gay Catholics do want to be married in their own Church and seen as a "gay person" not someone who "has" gay tendencies.

The priest needing to hide that he is gay just nardles my nerves only because it's not an action its an identity. It's like telling someone don't use your first name but just let us call you by how we want to call you, type of thing.

Pet peeve. Not just with the Church just "Church-minded" folks or others call evangelical or protestant. Whatever the case may be, it's not more of an opinion but an insult to who I am.

So it's kinda personal too.

The church has to take a position that is found in the scriptures and the tradition of the church because that's its mandate. It cannot take a position contrary to that, even though over the centuries it definitely has "tweeked" some earlier teachings in certain areas. Even though I don't agree with what the scriptures and the tradition says on the issue of homosexuality, that's what's found in both and that cannot be changed.

But what can be changed and is actually beginning to be changed is how the church can deal with that issue in a way whereas those who violate these teachings aren't being forced out or being made to feel less "Catholic", and this pope definitely has accelerated that process. I doubt very much if the church will ever sanction homosexuality, but that doesn't mean one cannot rely on their own conscience on the matter as you and I are.

 

[metis]

The Bible saya that if you have sinful thoughts it is just as bad as actually acting in a sinful way. A priest should be pure in thought and action.

That's because thoughts can lead to actions. But if everyone was judged just on their thoughts alone, everyone would be condemned. We cannot always control our thoughts, but hopefully we can control our actions. And a priest is a human being-- not a robot that can be programmed.

 

[Aštra’el]

Catholicism doesn't need do go changing its culture and doctrines to appease everyone, or to ease the sensitivities of those who find various aspects of its collective spiritual-religious Weltanschauung to be "offensive".

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The church has to take a position that is found in the scriptures and the tradition of the church because that's its mandate. It cannot take a position contrary to that, even though over the centuries it definitely has "tweeked" some earlier teachings in certain areas. Even though I don't agree with what the scriptures and the tradition says on the issue of homosexuality, that's what's found in both and that cannot be changed.

But what can be changed and is actually beginning to be changed is how the church can deal with that issue in a way whereas those who violate these teachings aren't being forced out or being made to feel less "Catholic", and this pope definitely has accelerated that process. I doubt very much if the church will ever sanction homosexuality, but that doesn't mean one cannot rely on their own conscience on the matter as you and I are.

I know they won't change how they see homosexuality. Though, what bothers me is that a priest can't identify as homosexual not the actions itself.

 

[metis]

I know they won't change how they see homosexuality. Though, what bothers me is that a priest can't identify as homosexual not the actions itself.

But the priest represents the church, so he cannot publicly take a position contrary to what the church teaches. That's his job.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But the priest represents the church, so he cannot publicly take a position contrary to what the church teaches. That's his job.

I know a lot of LGBT feel "closeted" when they cannot share who they are as people. It was like that in the military when the Don't Ask Don't Tell Act came when Clinton came into office. I don't know in what situations it would be appropriate for a priest (and a militant) to disclose their sexuality.

In our diocese requirements, it is required that priest cannot disclose (publicly) their sexual orientation; and, I don't understand why. If that priest feels that is who they are as a person, then he is suppressing who he is because of how the word is defined and worse, how it's defined on people who do not adhere to it's biblical definition of the word.

Regardless if they want to or not or if it's appropriate (which I don't know what situations would be other than applying for priesthood), why couldn't a priest share publicly a part of who he is?

I know priest who are human and shared a lot about themselves, their interests, et cetera as we talked in confession. It was a very nice conversation and shows that priest are human too.

Does it mention why a priest cannot share publicly his sexual orientation?

In our diocese, they actually do background checks to see if you are "actually a homosexual" by talking to family, friends, etc about your sexual activity and lifestyle (they look for sexual promiscuity between either gender not specifically homosexuality).

 

[metis]

I know a lot of LGBT feel "closeted" when they cannot share who they are as people. It was like that in the military when the Don't Ask Don't Tell Act came when Clinton came into office. I don't know in what situations it would be appropriate for a priest (and a militant) to disclose their sexuality.

In our diocese requirements, it is required that priest cannot disclose (publicly) their sexual orientation; and, I don't understand why. If that priest feels that is who they are as a person, then he is suppressing who he is because of how the word is defined and worse, how it's defined on people who do not adhere to it's biblical definition of the word.

Regardless if they want to or not or if it's appropriate (which I don't know what situations would be other than applying for priesthood), why couldn't a priest share publicly a part of who he is?

I know priest who are human and shared a lot about themselves, their interests, et cetera as we talked in confession. It was a very nice conversation and shows that priest are human too.

Does it mention why a priest cannot share publicly his sexual orientation?

In our diocese, they actually do background checks to see if you are "actually a homosexual" by talking to family, friends, etc about your sexual activity and lifestyle (they look for sexual promiscuity between either gender not specifically homosexuality).

But that's the way business works, and religious institutions are a business. When my father worked for Ford as a salary employee, it was expected that he drive a Ford and prop up the Ford name. And since I was in education, there were a great many times that I could not say what I really wanted to say.

Such is life.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But that's the way business works, and religious institutions are a business. When my father worked for Ford as a salary employee, it was expected that he drive a Ford and prop up the Ford name. And since I was in education, there were a great many times that I could not say what I really wanted to say.

Such is life.

Same with my job. I can't say certain things about our residential home that would be beneficial for a new resident to know. If someone is hurt, I can't touch them, or I'll get fired. The list goes on.

Life does not need to be a mystery all because we can't change what we need to do. So I asked. Why do we do X? What's the reason behind Y. When I found out about insurance reasons, misinformation, and not being a certified EMT, it made sense and I was able to do my work better.

Mystery-religions just do not make sense to me. Why does the "invisible" take precedence over the visible? We're not becoming god by wanting to know. We're educating ourselves to understand what we can and cannot control.

As such, if there isn't an answer, no one has told me there wasn't. I just find it odd that if one identifies, say, as an Woman of Color but she looks like she is White years ago, if she wanted to save herself and family, she identified as white. Yes, it make sense even though it couldn't be changed.

In this case, I've known many Catholics who are very kindhearted to the LGBT community. They may not understand the difference between sexual identity, gender identity, action, and sexual orientation, but rare and few in between actually have interest in learning about it regardless if they disagree.

One priest explained why homosexuality is not accepted in the Church. He's from Gana and sat with me for a full two hour confession (only him and my first priest has ever done that) and in that some odd minutes, explained about the cultures and traditions of his country and many countries who woman have no choice as in who their parents want them to marry and always with a male.

So that made sense. But I never asked him about identity because not many straight people understand identity versus orientation unless they are a minority of a given culture: Deaf, Native American, African American (among other ethnicity), and the list goes on.

So if a priest cannot identify as homosexual, I'd thought it would be nice to know why. What is the logic behind it? What does the Church say about sexual identity and does Pope Francis say homosexuals have no tendency to sin or does he just say we don't have a disorder? Because if we act on our tendency to sin within a marriage, we have sined. If a straight person acted in heterosexual sex within marriage, they have not sin.

I see no difference between the two. But does Frances say something about that? The Bible? The Church?

 

[metis]

So if a priest cannot identify as homosexual, I'd thought it would be nice to know why. What is the logic behind it? What does the Church say about sexual identity and does Pope Francis say homosexuals have no tendency to sin or does he just say we don't have a disorder? Because if we act on our tendency to sin within a marriage, we have sined. If a straight person acted in heterosexual sex within marriage, they have not sin.

I see no difference between the two. But does Frances say something about that? The Bible? The Church?

I think the pope is taking into consideration the overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is more a matter of genes than choice. So, there's a tug in that direction but then the scriptures and church tradition are a tug in the opposite direction.

BTW, according to traditional RCC teachings, I'm going to hell in a hand-basket because I understand the teachings about Jesus but I don't believe the more "religious" aspects about him. However, this pope seems to be even backing away from this traditional stance.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think the pope is taking into consideration the overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is more a matter of genes than choice. So, there's a tug in that direction but then the scriptures and church tradition are a tug in the opposite direction.

BTW, according to traditional RCC teachings, I'm going to hell in a hand-basket because I understand the teachings about Jesus but I don't believe the more "religious" aspects about him. However, this pope seems to be even backing away from this traditional stance.

Yeah, that last part, and over here, it is getting the Catholics real mad. I remember the few last Masses I went to, and the priest said "we need to go back to our old traditional worship. We need to take time and give reverence to Mother Mary and all the Saints. The Church has fallen behind (paraphrased; same context) and, as 'an all saints Church' we hope, this Easter Vigil, to give praise and prayer to Jesus, Saints, and (so forth)."

I can't remember verbatim. I was at the Easter Vigil and one of the new priest said this. I live in a Catholic owned facility, and some Catholics do have strong opinions about Pope Francis.

So if they do find out homosexuality is not a sin but the action is, I don't know what waves would ripple in the congregation. Not because the Church is wrong but because of lack of knowledge with sexual orientation, identity, action, and attraction.

Many Catholics, I know first hand, have never read their Bible. Others were told not to even own one. (The older folks seem to say this. The younger ones are cracking up their bibles).

So it's a real toss up in the individual parishes more than the Church itself.

 

[metis]

Yeah, that last part, and over here, it is getting the Catholics real mad. I remember the few last Masses I went to, and the priest said "we need to go back to our old traditional worship. We need to take time and give reverence to Mother Mary and all the Saints. The Church has fallen behind (paraphrased; same context) and, as 'an all saints Church' we hope, this Easter Vigil, to give praise and prayer to Jesus, Saints, and (so forth)."

I can't remember verbatim. I was at the Easter Vigil and one of the new priest said this. I live in a Catholic owned facility, and some Catholics do have strong opinions about Pope Francis.

So if they do find out homosexuality is not a sin but the action is, I don't know what waves would ripple in the congregation. Not because the Church is wrong but because of lack of knowledge with sexual orientation, identity, action, and attraction.

Many Catholics, I know first hand, have never read their Bible. Others were told not to even own one. (The older folks seem to say this. The younger ones are cracking up their bibles).

So it's a real toss up in the individual parishes more than the Church itself.

My wife, who has been a devout Catholic all her life, actually stopped going to mass for a couple of months going back about 3 years ago, and it was this pope that led her back in. She was very angry with the pedophile sweep-under-the-rug inaction of the previous popes especially.

His actions and words to soften the church's stance on several issues has been impressive to her-- and to me. His insistence that the church needs to better address the concerns of the poor is very refreshing and very much on target with the gospel. His openness to other faiths and even the opinions of agnostics/atheists is a true milestone that makes her happy, especially since I'm neither Catholic nor Christian. And his gradual shift dealing with the gay community is also part of this process even if he can't go as far as some would like.

Hey, remember how long it took the RCC to recognize that Galileo was right all along and the church was wrong? Have patience.