Celibacy for Priests 'Can be Changed', says Pope Francis

[Saint Frankenstein]

As one who is not Catholic but is married to one, both she and I do hope someday soon the church will allow for priests and nuns to be married because I think it will help resolve some problems that have shaken the church.

It doesn't make any sense to allow for nuns (or monks) to be married. It would defeat the whole purpose of asceticism in the first place.

 

[metis]

It doesn't make any sense to allow for nuns (or monks) to be married. It would defeat the whole purpose of asceticism in the first place.

Not necessarily as I do believe it possible for one to be an ascetic and also be married. After all, when one is married, we have to beg and be humble a lot more than if single. My wife and I have been married for 48 years, so maybe you can imagine just how much of both I've had to do?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Not necessarily as I do believe it possible for one to be an ascetic and also be married. After all, when one is married, we have to beg and be humble a lot more than if single. My wife and I have been married for 48 years, so maybe you can imagine just how much of both I've had to do?

I'm not see how it's possible to be married and to be ascetic. Moreover, monastics (monks and nuns; religious sisters aren't necessarily the same as a nun) are monastics, which means that they denounce worldly life in general, and that includes marriage and the sexual activity that goes along with it.

 

[metis]

I'm not see how it's possible to be married and to be ascetic. Moreover, monastics (monks and nuns; religious sisters aren't necessarily the same as a nun) are monastics, which means that they denounce worldly life in general, and that includes marriage and the sexual activity that goes along with it.

Here's the definition from Dictionary.com:
noun
5. the philosophical theory or set of principles governing the idea of beauty at a given time and place.

Therefore, what would be the problem of a married person not being as such?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Here's the definition from Dictionary.com:
noun
5. the philosophical theory or set of principles governing the idea of beauty at a given time and place.

Therefore, what would be the problem of a married person not being as such?

What? I think you searched for the wrong word or am misunderstanding me. That sounds more like aestheticism, not asceticism. Maybe you accidentally searched for "aesthetic"?

This is the definition of asceticism from dictionary.com:
noun
1.
the manner of life, practices, or principles of an ascetic.
2.
the doctrine that a person can attain a high spiritual and moral state by practicing self-denial, self-mortification, and the like.
3.
rigorous self-denial; extreme abstinence; austerity.

 

[metis]

What? I think you searched for the wrong word or am misunderstanding me. That sounds more like aestheticism, not asceticism. Maybe you accidentally searched for "aesthetic"?

This is the definition of asceticism from dictionary.com:
noun
1.
the manner of life, practices, or principles of an ascetic.
2.
the doctrine that a person can attain a high spiritual and moral state by practicing self-denial, self-mortification, and the like.
3.
rigorous self-denial; extreme abstinence; austerity.

You're correct as I thought you were using the term "aestheticism", so now we're finally on the same page with our definitions at least, although I still think it possible that an "ascetic" could be married. Maybe more difficult, but marriage does have its advantages in this arena as a wife or husband need not be an obstacle to the above. Can be, yes; must be, not necessarily so, imo.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You're correct as I thought you were using the term "aestheticism", so now we're finally on the same page with our definitions at least, although I still think it possible that an "ascetic" could be married. Maybe more difficult, but marriage does have its advantages in this arena as a wife or husband need not be an obstacle to the above. Can be, yes; must be, not necessarily so, imo.

It's possible, I suppose, as Mary and Joseph were married but it was a sexless marriage. The whole point of their marriages seems to be that so that Jesus could have an earthly mother and father. Joseph was basically an adoptive father.

Outside of parenthood, I don't see what the point of an ascetic marrying would be, because they're not supposed to have sex (which would rule out parenthood, unless they're adopting). I suppose a sexless marriage works for some.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Of course it can be changed. Seriously, why not? What does anyone fear in NOT maintaining the requirement of celibacy? Some form of retaliation from God? Not going to happen.

 

[Skwim]

It is a complete and serious devotion (whether or not the Church or Pope states it is not the point) to God by avoiding many of the temptations that may lead a priest away from God. One of those temptations (as mentioned in your OP) is masturbation and sex among some of the clergy.

Please explain how masturbation would lead a person away from god. At most it wouldn't take up more than 30-60 minutes. No more time than going over a copy of Consumer Reports or drawing a picture of a vase on a table, and I'm certain these two activities aren't prohibited by the church.

Also, as a point of curiosity, are nuns allowed to masturbate?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Please explain how masturbation would lead a person away from god. At most it wouldn't take up more than 30-60 minutes. No more time than going over a copy of Consumer Reports or drawing a picture of a vase on a table, and I'm certain these two activities aren't prohibited by the church.

Also, as a point of curiosity, are nuns allowed to masturbate?

Haha. I don't know why I entered this conversation. I really value the role of priests and nuns in their devotion to serve their god. Just as any other religious person of other religions (Just Catholicism is the only one I am familiar with), I like devotional life.

The activity (sex, masturbation, watching t.v., eating chocolate), does not need to be sexual in nature for it to distract a person from their devotion to god. If I'm sitting down, eating huge loads of chocolate and forgetting to go to Mass, there's a problem. If I'm thinking of the wine/bread as chips and soft drink that I'm obsessed with, there is a problem. Likewise, if I'm devoting my attention to nude women in inappropriate activity, in my view, that would be a bad example of when I counsel someone who is about to be married--when the Church teaches all sexual activity is done after marriage between spouses, there's a problem.

It's not about the priest wants but his devotion and vows he took to his god. Anything that distracts him from that, well, basically, contradicts the nature of that vocation (In Catholic point of view). If a Catholic wants to masturbate, don't be a priest. I don't suggest it if someone is a devoted catholic; but, I do value priests vocation with celibacy.

If the Church said priest could marry, I would be down with that too.

I just don't care for someone saying they believe in one thing, take a vow, and do the opposite of what they vowed. It's appreciation for their faith.



Other than that, if you know that X is against the rules, don't commit to those rules especially if doing X will prevent you from your role of doing Y not only for God, for self, but for others too.

 

[Skwim]

Haha. I don't know why I entered this conversation. I really value the role of priests and nuns in their devotion to serve their god. Just as any other religious person of other religions (Just Catholicism is the only one I am familiar with), I like devotional life.

The activity (sex, masturbation, watching t.v., eating chocolate), does not need to be sexual in nature for it to distract a person from their devotion to god. If I'm sitting down, eating huge loads of chocolate and forgetting to go to Mass, there's a problem. If I'm thinking of the wine/bread as chips and soft drink that I'm obsessed with, there is a problem. Likewise, if I'm devoting my attention to nude women in inappropriate activity, in my view, that would be a bad example of when I counsel someone who is about to be married--when the Church teaches all sexual activity is done after marriage between spouses.

Are you telling me that priests and nuns are required to think about god and related matters the entire time they're awake? If so, I'm not buying it. And I'm not talking about any activity that takes them away from their duties. So let's just go with their free time, when they can read a book, knit a scarf, or masturbate. I'm assuming that reading a book on global warming or knitting a scarf niece Jennifer wouldn't lead a person away from god, so why would masturbation?



Also, how about nuns masturbating. Are they allowed to?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you telling me that priests and nuns are required to think about god and related matters the entire time they're awake? If so, I'm not buying it. And I'm not talking about any activity that takes them away from their duties. So let's just go with their free time, when they can read a book, knit a scarf, or masturbate. I'm assuming that reading a book on global warming or knitting a scarf niece Jennifer wouldn't lead a person away from god, so why would masturbation?



Also, how about nuns masturbating. Are they allowed to?

To tell you honestly, some people fast from things like reading books, knitting, watching too much t.v. they feel its taking them away from their devotion to god. Masturbation is no different.

If you wondering how the act distracts a person from god, its just like anything else. If I want to spend time with my mother, i wouldnt be on the cell phone all day the time im with her.

Doesnt need to be sexual in nature. Just many religions say thats one of mans greatest tempations.

 

[Skwim]

To tell you honestly, some people fast from things like reading books, knitting, watching too much t.v. they feel its taking them away from their devotion to god. Masturbation is no different.

Are you saying that the Catholic church expects its priests and nuns to devote all their waking hours to god and the church?

If you wondering how the act distracts a person from god, its just like anything else. If I want to spend time with my mother, i wouldnt be on the cell phone all day the time im with her.

But we aren't talking about all the time of anything, just a moment or two in other pursuits.

Doesnt need to be sexual in nature. Just many religions say thats one of mans greatest tempations.

Not understanding.

And again I ask, how about nuns masturbating. Are they allowed to?

 

[Glaurung]

Of course it can be changed. Seriously, why not? What does anyone fear in NOT maintaining the requirement of celibacy? Some form of retaliation from God? Not going to happen.

It's not about a fear of sin, but tradition and the dignity of the priesthood.The Roman Church has endured for almost two-thousand years and you don't do that by catering to the whims of fashionable opinion. That's not to say that nothing should ever change no matter what, and clerical celibacy has always been one of those things can change. (It's not an actual doctrine of the faith) Nonetheless decisions like this are not the kind of thing they're inclined to take overnight.

And clerical celibacy does have its benefits. Not having your priests bogged down with families for example, allows priests much greater flexibility for the service of the Church. (Which is ultimately what they signed up for) The service of God for the salvation of souls.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Are you saying that the Catholic church expects its priests and nuns to devote all their waking hours to god and the church?

Its not the Church. Many men arent priests because the Church forces them. They are because they want to devote themselves to god and to others (to the Church). If-if watching too many movies prevents the priest from his vocational duties, he sees it as wrong.

The Church (and many other religions) see sexuality more strongly than watching t.v. Thats why there is a lot of emphasis. The priest knows this...may struggle with it...but they think, which is more important? Masterbation isnt like food. We dont need to do it.

But we aren't talking about all the time of anything, just a moment or two in other pursuits.

Its also the act itself. Sexuality is seen more extreme. Maybe because its one of mans biggest things that identifies us as people and animals.

Its still rude to intrupt my day with my mother by a phone call with my friend. Its the calling itself.

And again I ask, how about nuns masturbating. Are they allowed to?

No. They arent. Thats a command they get from their God, though.

Its all about god.

 

[Glaurung]

Please explain how masturbation would lead a person away from god.

In Catholic morality, any sexual activity which isn't directed towards the unitive function among spouses and isn't open to the possibility of procreation is morally wrong because it violates the teleological purpose of sex.

 

[Skwim]

No. They arent. Thats a command they get from their God, though.

Its all about god.

Got a Chapter and verse for this, because I don't recall any that says "Thou shall not masturbate."

In Catholic morality, any sexual activity which isn't directed towards the unitive function among spouses

What is this "unitive function among spouses"?

and isn't open to the possibility of procreation is morally wrong because it violates the teleological purpose of sex.

How would masturbation violate the purpose of intercourse? I assume that "sex" here is a euphemism for sexual intercourse.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Got a Chapter and verse for this, because I don't recall any that says "Thou shall not masturbate."

I never said the Bible had anything to do with masterbation. The vow to be a priest, according to priests, come from God. Anything that deters them from their vocation to serve god by serving others, they percieve that as a sin. It goes against god (aka purpose of the crucifiction)

Its not just Catholic priests. Many priests of different faiths take celibacy vows. What are they missing out on if god can give them so much more?

Sexual impurity is in the bible. Masturbation falls in that catagory=according to Catholicism

 

[roger1440]

The rule of priestly celibacy has been called into question by Pope Francis, who says he believes that the rules requiring all priests to abstain from sex "can be changed."

The tradition in the Catholic Church has been for priests as well as bishops to take vows of celibacy, a rule that has been in place since the early Middle Ages.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

Psychotherapist and former Benedictine priest Richard Sipe has conducted a study of celibate and sexual behaviour among Catholic clerics in the United States from 1960 to 1985, and found that half of all priests and Catholic brothers were sexually active at any particular time.

Masturbation was the most frequent sexual activity, followed by affairs with women, sex with male companions, and Internet pornography. He also believes that these numbers have not changed much today.

"Sex is really very close to an addiction. It's a drive that doesn't go away," Sipe told the New York Times. "If you're going to live without it, you can't live like a normal person. You can't just say one day, 'I'm celibate.' Celibacy is a process."
source

______________________________________________________________

Catholic Sexual Ethics . . . responds to the objection that masturbation is not a grave moral disorder in certain circumstances. Adolescent masturbation is given as one of the circumstances. The response is that the Church has always acknowledged that circumstances alter cases, and that there are degrees of responsibility in the different kinds of masturbation. But the Church holds that the act of masturbation remains OBJECTIVELY SERIOUSLY WRONG. Rightly she distinguishes between the objective gravity of the masturbatory act and the personal responsibility of the agent. This important distinction, which Farraher elaborates, enables us to hold the traditional position, while making allowances for a variety of mitigating factors which diminish the personal guilt of the masturbator, provided he is willing to do whatever may be necessary to overcome the bad habit, or in some cases, the compulsion.
source

​

Catholic or not, what is your opinion on celibacy for Catholic priests and bishops? If you would, please indicate whether or not you're Catholic.

First, Internet pornography IS NOT sex.

 

[Glaurung]

What is this "unitive function among spouses"?

Emotional bonding basically.

​

How would masturbation violate the purpose of intercourse? I assume that "sex" here is a euphemism for sexual intercourse.

You don't understand. Any sexual act must be directed towards a spouse and must be open to the possibility of procreation. Masturbation fails to meet those requirements and is therefore a violation of teleology. Masturbation is a sin in their eyes for the same reason contraception is a sin, it violates natural law.

It's not a difficult concept to grasp, the Church's position is logically consistent. Whether or not you accept teleological natural law as a solid basis for moral reasoning is irrelevant.