Celibacy for Priests 'Can be Changed', says Pope Francis

[Skwim]

I never said the Bible had anything to do with masterbation.

But you said they get a command through god. If he isn't commanding them through the Bible where are they getting it from?

Sexual impurity is in the bible. Masturbation falls in that catagory=according to Catholicism

So it's the catholic church that's decided that masturbation is a sexual impurity. Nothing in the Bible.

First, Internet pornography IS NOT sex.

The claim was: "Masturbation was the most frequent sexual activity, . ..and Internet pornography." Believe me, the sexual pornography on the internet does involve various sex acts. In any case, If he took the time to elaborate I believe he would say that watching internet porn is a sexual activity.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But you said they get a command through god. If he isn't commanding them through the Bible where are they getting it from?

So it's the catholic church that's decided that masturbation is a sexual impurity. Nothing in the Bible

Yes. The bible says sexual impurity: rape, homosexuality, incest, etc not masturbation.

The Church said the details.

I just agree with the Church. As long as the Chuch isnt forcing priest to be celibate, I admire their act of doing so. I personally dont care for masterbation. It comes with the deal when I was in a relationship.

 

[cambridge79]

Wasn't celibacy actually introduced so that all the high figures in the church during the middle age couldn't have childrens to inherit their possessions and in such way there was no risk of some lineage to become too wealthy and powerful and pose a threat to the papal supremacy?

 

[Skwim]

Emotional bonding basically.

Strange why this singular purpose is invoked. Outside of any religious considerations, what are the personal consequences to a person who doesn't engage in sexual activity for emotional bonding?

In any case, I take it then that if I engage in intercourse with my wife simply for pleasure I would be committing a moral sin or something.

You don't understand. Any sexual act must be directed towards a spouse and must be open to the possibility of procreation.

So what of the infertile couple?

Masturbation fails to meet those requirements and is therefore a violation of teleology.

What of the widow or the spinster? Does the Church say masturbation is immoral for these people as well?

Masturbation is a sin in their eyes for the same reason contraception is a sin, it violates natural law.

Natural law?? What natural law?

 

[roger1440]

The claim was: "Masturbation was the most frequent sexual activity, . ..and Internet pornography." Believe me, the sexual pornography on the internet does involve various sex acts. In any case, If he took the time to elaborate I believe he would say that watching internet porn is a sexual activity.

If a 40 year old virgin has been watching porn since the age of 12, can he say he has been sexually active for 28 years?

 

[Skwim]

I just agree with the Church. As long as the Chuch isnt forcing priest to be celibate, I admire their act of doing so. I personally dont care for masterbation. It comes with the deal when I was in a relationship.

But isn't it requisite that priest be celibate?

 

[Skwim]

If a 40 year old virgin has been watching porn since the age of 12, can he say he has been sexually active for 28 years?

Pope Francis, we have an interesting question from the balcony. *Question is repeated* What do you say? ...................................................................................................................... He says, "Yup," and "Good for you for practicing safe sex. "

 

[Unveiled Artist]

But isn't it requisite that priest be celibate?

Its a requirement the priest "chooses" to make. To me, priest celibacy is the choice of the priest not the requirement of the Church.

 

[Glaurung]

In any case, I take it then that if I engage in intercourse with my wife simply for pleasure I would be committing a moral sin or something.

The view here isn't that a couple must intend on procreating with every act of sexual intercourse, but that the possibility of procreation cannot be deliberately avoided.

So what of the infertile couple?

The issue here is one of intent. If the sexual act is open to being procreative in principle (semen is going into a vagina) then the couple commits no sin because the infertility is incidental, not deliberate. Again, the issue isn't that all sex must have an explicit intention to be procreative, but that you can't deliberately avoid the possibility of procreation. It's a fairly clear position.

What of the widow or the spinster? Does the Church say masturbation is immoral for these people as well?

Yes, the very act of masturbation is in and of itself intrinsically immoral under this system because it's A) not directed towards a spouse and B) cannot result in procreation and therefore is a misuse of the sexual function. If you're not married then you cannot engage in any sexual activity whatsoever because you cannot meet those requirements of which both must be present. It must be with a spouse, and it must in principle lead to the possibility of procreation.

Natural law?? What natural law?

The natural law regarding the created purpose (final casualty) of all created things by God.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_causes

 

[metis]

But Canon Law on this issue was formulated at a time when the population density was low, which is not what we see today. Secondly, there is simply no set of scriptures that say that sex is only for procreation and that birth control is intrinsically wrong. The one verse that some site is when a man is ordered by God to father a child but he withdraws and spills his seed, but that deals with a specific person's violation of what he was commanded to do.

 

[Desert Snake]

It should be optional and they also should allow women into the clergy. It would be even better if they followed the Cathar's example in this area:


http://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Catharism-should-basic-Christianity-be-revived

Should they allow animals into the clergy as well? What about inanimate objects?

 

[Demonslayer]

Should they allow animals into the clergy as well?

I don't see why not, 6% of Catholic Priests turned out to be animals. I'd rather have a giraffe lead the prayer service.

 

[Demonslayer]

Yes, the very act of masturbation is in and of itself intrinsically immoral under this system because it's A) not directed towards a spouse

Who says you can't direct masturbation towards your spouse?

 

[Skwim]

Its a requirement the priest "chooses" to make. To me, priest celibacy is the choice of the priest not the requirement of the Church.

This makes no sense. Please review it.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

This makes no sense. Please review it.

Lol. Sorry. Its a requirement of the Church. Since the priest "chooses" to be celibate, he would not see it as that but a gift (cant think of the right word) to take that vocation which is from God.

Its a Church requirement. Since Catholic men can choose to take up this vocation, they may feel its a gift from god.

What non Catholics see is a limitation by the Churc, Catholics see is a gift from God which the Church follows.

Depends on the point of view.

 

[Skwim]

But Canon Law on this issue was formulated at a time when the population density was low, which is not what we see today. Secondly, there is simply no set of scriptures that say that sex is only for procreation and that birth control is intrinsically wrong. The one verse that some site is when a man is ordered by God to father a child but he withdraws and spills his seed, but that deals with a specific person's violation of what he was commanded to do.

And this is how I understand a lot of Catholic dogma. It was concocted up to suit the prejudices and predispositions of those in charge, and often has little, if any, basis in Biblical writings.

 

[Glaurung]

Who says you can't direct masturbation towards your spouse?

All sex must result in the complete act (I shouldn't have to spell out what I mean by this) otherwise it's a grievous sin. Whatever a couple does in the lead up to that act itself is a couple's own business.

But Canon Law on this issue was formulated at a time when the population density was low, which is not what we see today.

It simply doesn't matter. Contraception is a violation of natural law and is therefore intrinsically immoral. The telos of any created thing in nature (including sexual activity) is independent of human desires. The telos of sex as far as the Church is concerned is procreation, not mere human pleasure.

Secondly, there is simply no set of scriptures that say that sex is only for procreation and that birth control is intrinsically wrong.

Firstly, you'll have a hard time convincing me that the very same person who said this Matthew 5:27-29 would approve of masturbation and pornography as legitimate expressions of sexuality as I'm sure many here would insist. Secondly, Catholicism is a tradition which includes a whole set of moral and philosophical prepositions, it's not as simple as what the Bible itself explicitly says. Saying the same thing to an Orthodox Jew that the Tulmudic prohibition again male masturbation has no basis in the Torah won't get you very far because Orthodox Judaism isn't 'the Torah', and Catholicism isn't 'the Bible'.

 

[metis]

And this is how I understand a lot of Catholic dogma. It was concocted up to suit the prejudices and predispositions of those in charge, and often has little, if any, basis in Biblical writings.

No, I really don't accept that. I think the church took the scriptures and the tradition that was passed down, and it was this that formed the basis of Canon Law that was compiled much later. Yes, I have no doubt whatsoever that certain parts of that Law were self-serving, so I'm not giving the RCC a "getting out of jail free" pass.

And we have to remember that it was the church who selected the canon and not the other way around.

 

[metis]

It simply doesn't matter. Contraception is a violation of natural law and is therefore intrinsically immoral. The telos of any created thing in nature (including sexual activity) is independent of human desires. The telos of sex as far as the Church is concerned is procreation, not mere human pleasure.

So is flying in an airplane, which is a "violation of natural law" as we weren't born with wings.

The "spilling of the seed" is an interpretation of one particular narrative that has other possible interpretations. The church can teach whatever it believes is right, no doubt, but that is their interpretation.

 

[Glaurung]

So is flying in an airplane, which is a "violation of natural law" as we weren't born with wings.

I don't see how. Flying an aircraft doesn't violate any principle of Catholic teleological ethics. In fact, flight is the telos of any self-respecting aircraft. To use a condom however, is to deliberately frustrate the natural end of the sexual act; procreation. To do so is to distort sex as our participation in the creative act of God, to a mere plaything for our own pleasure. It's an abuse.