Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[Madsaac]

Challenges such as this for proof are usually front loaded with denial. In reality nothing can be proven from the subjective perspective of religious beliefs including miracles.

The next word in the dictionary past miracle is mirage.

A possible alternative is the Baha'i Faith with a more universal perspective. Miracles are not considered any sort of provent, and not meaningful to justify one's belief or non-belief. The e[eriences in miracles are simply unexplainable, an at best a personal experience. A previous post described some miracles is the Baha'i history, but , , ,

Of course, if you are demanding proof. The Baha'i Faith will not offer you any satisfaction.

Baha’is and Miracles

In 1850, at least ten thousand people witnessed a miraculous event in Baha’i history – the public martyrdom, by the Persian government, of the Bab.

bahaiteachings.org

So are miracles possible? Certainly some Baha’is believe they have seen miraculous events occur, or even experienced them. However, the Baha’i Faith does not present miracles as a proof of anything; and in addition, Baha’u’llah specifically asked the Baha’is to not relate miracle stories, writing:

What makes the Baha'i Faith special if it has nothing special to offer, that being something beyond the everyday.

 

[Trailblazer]

Still waiting...........anyone, anything. If someone can show something I can then go and follow it up......have you ever heard of seen a miracle?

No, but I have witnessed paranormal things. Does that count?

 

[PearlSeeker]

The doctors were unable to cure my severe asthma attack. A pastor prayed "Jesus, heal this man" and I was instantly healed.

You let that sink in.

You're unable to accept what actually happened. Your unbelief has blinded you.

Maybe you are confusing correlation with causation (post hoc fallacy).

 

[PearlSeeker]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

A story about miracles:

A man traversed land and sea to check for himself the Master’s extraordinary fame.​

“What miracles has your Master worked?” he said to a disciple.​

​

“Well, there are miracles and miracles. In your land it is regarded as a miracle if God does someone’s will. In our country it is regarded as a miracle if someone does the will of God.”​

​

(Anthony de Mello: One Minute Wisdom)​

​

 

[sayak83]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

You know that you cannot prove anything in realms other than maths correct?
However, let me bite. In Hinduism and Buddhism, reincarnation is a consistent claim. Here is reference to current scientific evidence of reincarnation with past life memories. Does this work for you?
The Science of Reincarnation: UVA psychiatrist Jim Tucker investigates children’s claims of past lives

 

[RestlessSoul]

No I'm vey happy thanks mate, I'm still waiting for someone to show me evidence of a miracle?

You are a miracle. Open your eyes, open your mind. You are a conscious being, miraculously emerged from the interplay of mysterious phenomena constituting our universe. You are quite literally stardust.

 

[SalixIncendium]

You know that you cannot prove anything in realms other than maths correct?
However, let me bite. In Hinduism and Buddhism, reincarnation is a consistent claim. Here is reference to current scientific evidence of reincarnation with past life memories. Does this work for you?
The Science of Reincarnation: UVA psychiatrist Jim Tucker investigates children’s claims of past lives

Well...this certainly sounds familiar...

 

[PureX]

However there are whole religions based upon them?

That is the madness!

Only to you, because you think you know that there are no miracles. But you don't, because you can't. Your arrogance is really no different than the arrogance of those that caim to know their miracles happened. Since they can't know that their miracles are any more real than you can know that they aren't.

There is a great deal that we humans do not know about what is existentuially possible and what is not. Pretending we have all the answers may make us feel better, but it doesn't lessen our ignorance any. In fact, it just makes it harder for us to learn anything new.

 

[sayak83]

Well...this certainly sounds familiar...

View attachment 89719

I will not extend any hypothesis on the mechanism myself. But there is (now) good set of empirical data on the reality of rebirth, and that such a phenomenon, if real, is currently unexplainable by the scientific theories that we possess. I will leave it at that.

 

[Vinayaka]

It wouldn't be a religion (traditional) without miracles though, would it? The bible would be just a book?

As i said before, not all religions are based on miracles. There are many more religions on this planet than Christianity. I suggest expanding your horizons some.

 

[shunyadragon]

What makes the Baha'i Faith special if it has nothing special to offer, that being something beyond the everyday.

This has nothing to do with what I stated in my posts. Please read again and respond. Based on your posts I do not consider your quest sincere, It is more a flat rejection of religion. Again, the demand for proof is not a reasonable demand concerning any religious belief.

 

[Link]

Salam

Are you really ready for such signs?

This is from a famous sermon of Imam Ali (a) (near the end of it):

I was with him when a party of the Quraysh came to him and said to him, "O Muhammad, you have made a big claim which none of your fore-fathers or those of your family have made. We ask you one thing; if you give us an answer to it and show it to us, we will believe that you are a prophet and a messenger, but if you cannot do it, we will know that you are a sorcerer and a liar."

وَلَقَدْ كُنْتُ مَعَهُ(صلى الله عليه وآله) لَمَّا أَتاهُ المَلاَ مِنْ قُريْش، فَقَالُوا لَهُ: يَا مُحُمَّدُ، إِنَّكُ قَدِ ادَّعْيْتَ عَظِيماً لَمْ يَدَّعِهِ آبَاؤُكَ وَلاَ أحَدٌ مِن بَيْتِكَ، وَنَحْنُ نَسَأَلُكَ أَمْراً إِنْ أَجَبْتَنَا إِلَيْهِ وَأَرَيْتَنَاهُ، عَلِمْنَا أَنَّكَ نِبِيٌّ وَرَسُولٌ، وَإِنْ لَمْ تَفْعَلْ عَلِمْنَا أَنَّكَ سَاحِرٌ كَذَّابٌ.

The Messenger of Allah said: "What do you ask for?" They said: "Ask this tree to move for us, even with its roots, and stop before you." The Prophet said, "Verily, Allah has power over everything. If Allah does it for you, will you then believe and stand witness to the truth?" They said "Yes". Then he said, "I shall show you whatever you want, but I know that you won't bend towards virtue, and there are among you those who will be thrown into the pit, and those who will form parties (against me)." Then the Holy Prophet said: "O tree, if you do believe in Allah and the Day of Judgement, and know that I am the Prophet of Allah, come up with your roots and stand before me with the permission of Allah." By Him who deputed the Prophet with truth, the tree did remove itself with its root and came with a great humming sound and a flapping like the flapping of the wings of birds, till it stopped before the Messenger of Allah and cast its higher branches over the Prophet, while some of its branches came down onto my shoulders, and I was on the right side of the Holy Prophet.

فَقَالَ لهم (صلى الله عليه وآله): «وَمَا تَسْأَلُونَ؟». قَالُوا: تَدْعُو لَنَا هذِهِ الشَّجَرَةَ حَتَّى تَنْقَلِعَ بِعُرُوقِهَا وَتَقِفَ بَيْنَ يَدَيْكَ. فَقَالَ (صلى الله عليه وآله): «إِنَّ الله عَلَى كُلِّ شَيْء قَدِيرٌ، فإِنْ فَعَلَ اللهُ ذلِكَ لَكُمْ، أَتُؤْمِنُونَ وَتَشْهَدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ؟». قَالُوا: نَعَمْ. قَالَ: «فَإِنِّي سَأُرِيكُمْ مَا تَطْلُبُونَ، وإِنِّي لاَعْلَمُ أَنَّكُمْ لاَ تَفِيئُونَ إِلَى خَيْر، وَإِنَّ فِيكُمْ مَنْ يُطْرَحُ فِي الْقَلِيبِ، وَمَنْ يُحَزِّبُ الاْحْزَابَ».

ثُمَّ قَالَ: «يَا أَيَّتُهَا الشَّجَرَةُ إِنْ كُنْتِ تُؤمِنِينَ بِاللهِ وَاليَوْمِ الاْخِرِ، وَتَعْلَمِينَ أَنِّي رَسُولُ اللهِ، فَانْقَلِعِي بعُرُوقِكِ حَتَّى تَقِفِي بَيْنَ يَدَيَّ بِإِذْنِ اللهِ». فَوَالَّذِي بَعَثَهُ بِالْحَقِّ نَبِيّاً لاَنْقَلَعَتْ بِعُرُوقِهَا، وَجَاءَتْ وَلَهَا دَوِيٌّ شَدِيدٌ، وَقَصْفٌ كَقَصْفِ أَجْنِحَةِ الطَّيْرِ، حَتَّى وَقَفَتْ بَيْنَ يَدَيْ رَسُولِ اللهِ(صلى الله عليه وآله) مُرَفْرِفَةً، وَأَلْقَتْ بِغُصْنِهَا الاْعْلَى عَلَى رَسُولِ اللهِ(صلى الله عليه وآله)، وَبِبَعْضِ أَغْصَانِهَا عَلَى مَنْكِبِي، وَكُنْتُ عَنْ يَمِينِهِ(عليه السلام).

When the people saw this they said by way of pride and vanity. "Now you order half of it to come to you and the other half of it remain (in its place)." The Holy Prophet ordered the tree to do the same. Then half of the tree advanced towards him in an amazing manner and with greater humming. It was about to touch the Prophet of Allah. Then they said, disbelieving and revolting, "Ask this half to get back to its other half and be as it was." The Prophet ordered it and it returned. Then I said, "There is no god but Allah! O Prophet of Allah, I am the first to believe in you and to acknowledge that the tree did what it did just now with the command of Allah, the Sublime, in testimony to your Prophethood and to heighten your word”. Upon this all the people shouted, "Rather a sorcerer, a liar; it is wonderful sorcery, he is very adept in it. Only a man like this (pointing to me) can stand testimony to you in your affairs."

فَلَمَّا نَظَرَ الْقَوْمُ إِلَى ذلِكَ قَالُوا ـ عُلُوّاً وَاسْتِكْبَاراً ـ : فَمُرْهَا فَلْيَأْتِكَ نِصْفُهَا وَيَبْقَى نِصْفُهَا. فَأَمَرَهَا بِذلِكَ، فَأَقْبَلَ إِلَيْهِ نِصْفُهَا كَأَعْجَبِ إِقْبَال وَأَشَدِّهِ دَوِيّاً، فَكَادَتْ تَلْتَفُّ بِرَسُولِ اللهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله). فَقَالُوا ـ كُفْراً وَعُتُوّاً ـ : فَمُرْ هذَا النِّصْفَ فَلْيَرْجِعْ إِلَى نِصْفِهِ كَمَا كَانَ. فَأَمَرَهُ فَرَجَعَ. فَقُلْتُ أَنَا: لاَ إِلهَ إِلاَّ اللهُ، إِنِّي أَوَّلُ مْؤْمِن بِكَ يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ، وَأَوَّلُ مَنْ آمَنَ أَنَّ الشَّجَرَةَ فَعَلَتْ مَا فَعَلَتْ بِأَمْرِ اللهِ تَصْدِيقاً لِنُبُوَّتِكَ، وإِجْلاَلاً لِكَلِمَتِكَ. فَقَالَ الْقَوْمُ كُلُّهُمْ: بَلْ سَاحِرٌ كَذَّابٌ، عَجِيبُ السِّحْرِ خَفِيفٌ فِيهِ، وَهَلْ يُصَدِّقُكَ فِي أَمْرِكَ إِلاَّ مِثْلُ هذَا (يَعْنُونَنِي).

My comment: Quran shows people will always say they will believe such signs, but when tested with it, accuse of sorcery.

My question to you, what reasoning and logic do you have that you are certain such signs are not act of magic and sorcery but truly power from God and proof of the person's station as a trusted agent of God?

I believe if you turn to God often enough for such signs and that you wish to be guided by such signs, you will be. Just don't hasten it, and prepare your heart for it, and ask God sincerely.

 

[wellwisher]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

In the testing of new drugs, experimenters often use what is called a placebo. A placebo is an inert or sugar pill that has no biological effect. It is used as a control to factor out power of suggestion, since the sales hype can have an effect. My guess is some miracles could be connected to a placebo effect, where the faith of the sick person in the solution, allows a healing induction. We see this in tests.

Many people get flu shots, for example, because they do not know whether they will need it or not. Getting it has a psychological effect on some people, even if they did not need it. They may have stayed healthy, without it. Bu they assume the flu shot protects them like a talisman.

I believe that if there are placebo healing dynamics; via the brain. There are also induced placebo sicknesses; sick by association. The hypochondriac will want to get all the latest sicknesses. Since this fetish, has a psychological connection; placebo sickness, they could also be healed with the brain; sugar pill. This explains how the medicine man could heal, with a ritual dance, followed by chicken soup.

If we go back to ancients times, they do did not have microscopes nor did they know about cellular anatomy. So there was no way to know if the sickness was bacterial, viral, genetic, nutritional, or even placebo. So some miracles could have occurred via herbs, prayers and the brain making the needed corrections. The idea of evil spirits and disease, seems to point to placebo disease, since this images, according to psychology, are in the head; imagination and frontal lobe.

I tend to think too many people assume a miracle is like what is sensationalized on TV or at the movies. It can be sometimes less obvious, but just as spectacular. For example, say a prolong depression was suddenly, alleviated, by meeting the love of your life. Is that a miracle? The love connection will tweak the brain and change your brain's and body chemistry. If that scenario occurred after years of therapy and drugs, all not working, is it a miracle of natural healing? Natural healing is not stressed, since there is no money in it. Natural healing often needs a little push; miracle of faith.

 

[Quintessence]

Still waiting...........anyone, anything. If someone can show something I can then go and follow it up......have you ever heard of seen a miracle?

These huge religions have been on the something that just isn't there.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'll ask again anyone have anything, do you?

There you go:

You are a miracle. Open your eyes, open your mind. You are a conscious being, miraculously emerged from the interplay of mysterious phenomena constituting our universe. You are quite literally stardust.

See also:

As i said before, not all religions are based on miracles. There are many more religions on this planet than Christianity. I suggest expanding your horizons some.

Also, quite frankly, I don't want you in my swimming pool. Pagan and indigenous religions are patently uninterested in collecting converts. Go away.

 

[Quintessence]

As bad as WWII was, the number of people killed in WWII is within the estimated range of people killed just in Spain's wars of conquest and Christianization in the New World in the late 1400s and early 1500s.

And I'm not downplaying anything. Just holding up modern weapons against an earlier benchmark. I'm actually very worried about modern weapons of mass destruction being held by religious world leaders.

I want those with their "finger on the button" to feel the full enormity of what pushing it would entail and not believe that death of them and their loved ones only means a transition to a pleasant afterlife, or even worse, believing that their god(s) want them to blow up their country’s enemies.

Modern weapons have killed a lot of people. Religion has killed a lot of people. Religion mixed with modern weapons presents an unprecedented level of danger for humanity.

You do you, but frankly I couldn't care less what the human who shoots me in the head with a gun is thinking when they pull the trigger. The fact that I'd actually have a chance to escape if they were using a sword instead of a gun is what matters to me. And I also couldn't care less what's floating through some human's head when they carpet bomb or nuke an entire city in an instant. If the tools are available to be used, they will be used regardless of what is going through some dumb ape brain. Why you wouldn't be worried about WMD's just in general and instead be specifically paranoid about "religious" leaders (as if all humans aren't religious) is something I find utterly baffling.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You do you, but frankly I couldn't care less what the human who shoots me in the head with a gun is thinking when they pull the trigger.

When it comes to that point, it doesn't matter, but the odds are generally higher that you'll end up at that point if the person with the gun holds beliefs that tend to lead toward violence... and those beliefs are religious, for the most part.

The fact that I'd actually have a chance to escape if they were using a sword instead of a gun is what matters to me. And I also couldn't care less what's floating through some human's head when they carpet bomb or nuke an entire city in an instant.

Again: they're more likely to be carpet bombing or nuking if they hold the religious belief that Armageddon is a good thing... or at least a necessary step to get to good things.

If the tools are available to be used, they will be used regardless of what is going through some dumb ape brain. Why you wouldn't be worried about WMD's just in general and instead be specifically paranoid about "religious" leaders (as if all humans aren't religious) is something I find utterly baffling.

I'm worried about both. Why aren't you?

Edit: a person's physical capacity to kill others is definitely of concern, but just as big a concern is their psychological capacity to kill.

A zealot with WMD's is certainly problem, but history has shown that zealots with hand weapons like swords, spears and clubs are almost as big a problem.

 

[jimb]

Maybe you are confusing correlation with causation (post hoc fallacy).

Maybe you are confusing causation with correlation. A prayer was made on my behalf: "Jesus, heal this man", and I was instantly healed. IOW, Jesus caused me to be healed. (The doctors had failed.)

 

[SalixIncendium]

Maybe you are confusing causation with correlation. A prayer was made on my behalf: "Jesus, heal this man", and I was instantly healed. IOW, Jesus caused me to be healed. (The doctors had failed.)

Too bad he doesn't do that for everyone.

 

[jimb]

Too bad he doesn't do that for everyone.

Agreed. I think it is a matter of faith on the recipient's part. In the Bible, many people came to Jesus to be healed. Invariably, they had faith.

Matthew 9:22, "But when Jesus turned and saw her he said, “Have courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well.” And the woman was healed from that hour."

Mark 10:52, "Jesus said to him, “Go, your faith has healed you.” Immediately he regained his sight and followed him on the road."

Luke 7:50, "He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 17:19, "Then he said to the man, “Get up and go your way. Your faith has made you well.”

Acts 3:16, "And on the basis of faith in Jesus’ name, his very name has made this man—whom you see and know—strong. The faith that is through Jesus has given him this complete health in the presence of you all."

James 5:15, "And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up—and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."






.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Agreed. I think it is a matter of faith on the recipient's part. In the Bible, many people came to Jesus to be healed. Invariably, they had faith.

Matthew 9:22, "But when Jesus turned and saw her he said, “Have courage, daughter! Your faith has made you well.” And the woman was healed from that hour."

Mark 10:52, "Jesus said to him, “Go, your faith has healed you.” Immediately he regained his sight and followed him on the road."

Luke 7:50, "He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 17:19, "Then he said to the man, “Get up and go your way. Your faith has made you well.”

Acts 3:16, "And on the basis of faith in Jesus’ name, his very name has made this man—whom you see and know—strong. The faith that is through Jesus has given him this complete health in the presence of you all."

James 5:15, "And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick and the Lord will raise him up—and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven."






.

My daughter had faith. Why did Jesus heal you and not her?