Challenge: I'm willing to convert if.......

[Madsaac]

It's a matter of faith. Do you really think that anyone can prove that something happened (or not) more than 2,000 years ago?

So why do you believe then?

Faith in what? What some people have told you whilst growing up? Thinker deeper

 

[Madsaac]

I believe I can lol. The proof is all around you but you only see with eyes of skepticism.

All around me? Where? What?

No sure who's eyes you are using?

 

[Madsaac]

You have not defined the parameters.

A miracle described by a religion. Any miracle will do?

 

[Quintessence]

And yet all those weapons of mass destruction have come nowhere near the death toll humanity has suffered at the hands of religious people armed only with swords and zealotry.

Ruh.... really? I mean... we just... imagined that the deadliest wars in human history were modern and a direct result of technological "innovations" that enabled mass death on a scale that the species had never seen? Yeah. We were just imagining it. It wasn't all the guns, the bullets, the bombs, the gasses, and the nukes. Nah.

I mean, I guess since all humans are religious, your technically right. But do... do we really, actually, honestly want to downplay how much more devastating war became because of science and technology? Really? Really REALLY?!

World War II casualties - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Madsaac]

It took 50 years for me to become like me. It would be a miracle if you could even get off the ground.

Now if I could fly, that would be a miracle.

Have you seen or have evidence of someone doing something like this. Walk on water maybe?

No is the answer so..............

 

[McBell]

A miracle described by a religion. Any miracle will do?

Kent?
Kent Hovind?
Is that you?

 

[Madsaac]

Just my perspective, but if you're willing to convert, and not to one specific belief system, on the "illustrations" rather than the "plot", perhaps you'd be better off to remain unattached and continue your "reading." I'm glad the pictures caught your attention, now try digging into the Word. You may never find a particular "genre" to suit you completely, and that's just fine.

As mentioned, I'm willing to convert if there is evidence of a miracle.

And according to religious people, there are many miracles, so I should be any easy convert, should I not?

 

[Madsaac]

Meh... I've always disliked these "change my mind" Steven Crowder style questions as they are never asked in earnest and are instead asked with the intention of making a condescending point

For world views to actually change, it takes much more than shallow gotcha questions

To me, that is cowardly.

Why should it be a 'gotcha' moment if there have been so many miracles?

 

[Madsaac]

By definition, a "miracle" is not provable. The term refers to an inexplicable (unexplainable) event that provides a very positive result. One cannot "prove" what one cannot explain.

Your request is not logically coherent.

However there are whole religions based upon them?

That is the madness!

 

[Madsaac]

There's far more to religions than supposed miracles. Many folks go through and reflect on their beliefs without miracles having anything to do with it.

It wouldn't be a religion (traditional) without miracles though, would it? The bible would be just a book?

 

[Quintessence]

As mentioned, I'm willing to convert if there is evidence of a miracle.

Doubtful. Why would you uproot your entire way of life and living because random stranger on the internet told you about a miracle? That would be profoundly irrational. Surely you have more self-respect than that. And surely you have more respect of your fellow humans than to play these sorts of ridiculous games.

Or not.

 

[Madsaac]

How do you think that a miracle could be proven to you unless you actually witnessed that miracle firsthand?
Otherwise that miracle would only be something written on pages in a book.

Why do you believe that all believers hold beliefs because of miracles?
I was not brought up with any religious beliefs, I came to them in adulthood.

It's not a religion (traditional) without miracles, is it? The bible would just be another ordinary book. Christianity would just be another group.

And wields so much power based on the assumption of miracles. Which no one, I repeat no one can prove.

 

[Twilight Hue]

No I'm vey happy thanks mate, I'm still waiting for someone to show me evidence of a miracle?

I can just imagine all the Catholics willing to show their weeping Mary statues or a preist afflicted with miraculous divine stigmata.

 

[Spice]

As mentioned, I'm willing to convert if there is evidence of a miracle.

And according to religious people, there are many miracles, so I should be any easy convert, should I not?

Not at all. But then you know that......

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Ruh.... really? I mean... we just... imagined that the deadliest wars in human history were modern and a direct result of technological "innovations" that enabled mass death on a scale that the species had never seen? Yeah. We were just imagining it. It wasn't all the guns, the bullets, the bombs, the gasses, and the nukes. Nah.

I mean, I guess since all humans are religious, your technically right. But do... do we really, actually, honestly want to downplay how much more devastating war became because of science and technology? Really? Really REALLY?!

World War II casualties - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As bad as WWII was, the number of people killed in WWII is within the estimated range of people killed just in Spain's wars of conquest and Christianization in the New World in the late 1400s and early 1500s.

And I'm not downplaying anything. Just holding up modern weapons against an earlier benchmark. I'm actually very worried about modern weapons of mass destruction being held by religious world leaders.

I want those with their "finger on the button" to feel the full enormity of what pushing it would entail and not believe that death of them and their loved ones only means a transition to a pleasant afterlife, or even worse, believing that their god(s) want them to blow up their country’s enemies.

Modern weapons have killed a lot of people. Religion has killed a lot of people. Religion mixed with modern weapons presents an unprecedented level of danger for humanity.

 

[Unfettered]

Yes, what are these miracles that you have witnessed? I seriously would love to know.

That's understandable. I trust that you are sincere in wanting to know what miracles I'm talking about. But I must ask why you want to know? Not because I'm unwilling to share; but because if what you're really after is evidence that they happened and that they're real, I may not be able to give you that for the miracles I've witnessed any more than I could give you evidence for those recorded in the testimony of persons long dead. In such a case, my disclosing the miracles benefits you nothing. You'd be no closer to the truth about those things than you were before they were disclosed to you. Miracles are sacred and are almost always given to specific people to benefit them; potentially to be even known by no one else. The sharing of miracles with those not prepared to appreciate them usually only gives the skeptic more reason to be skeptical, resulting in him contracting from the truth even further, rather than drawing him to it. That's why God instructs that they be held close and not casually placed before unbelieving persons like pearls before swine (pigs place no value whatsoever on precious gems; the gems serve them not at all; only persons who actually place value on pearls will value them).

So help me understand why you want to know what miracles I'm talking about. Are you exercising faith already in your possession, or just bored and looking for entertainment, or just hoping to drum up a reason to mock and laugh? Will you answer that? We'll go from there.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's not a religion (traditional) without miracles, is it? The bible would just be another ordinary book. Christianity would just be another group.

And wields so much power based on the assumption of miracles. Which no one, I repeat no one can prove.

My religion is not a religion without miracles, but all you can do now is read about them, you cannot witness them for yourself.

"Bahá’u’lláh forbade His followers to attribute miracles to Him because this would have amounted to the degradation of His exalted station. Nevertheless, there are many accounts left to posterity by His disciples, describing the circumstances in which He either healed incurables or raised the dead.

None of these supernatural acts were considered by His followers to be a proof of the truth of His Cause, since they are only convincing to a limited number of people and they are not decisive proofs even for those who see them.

With this caveat in mind, it’s fun to look back on our history, and see how the Central Figures handled miracles."

Famous Miracles in the Baha’i Faith

 

[shunyadragon]

Anyone can prove that the miracles of any kind in the major religious texts, actually happened.

Yes, that's right I am happy to become a Christian or a Muslim.

However, if these miracles cannot be proven, then you must reflect on your belief and the possibility that you believe in what you do, because of your upbringing.

Do not be afraid.

Challenges such as this for proof are usually front loaded with denial. In reality nothing can be proven from the subjective perspective of religious beliefs including miracles.

The next word in the dictionary past miracle is mirage.

A possible alternative is the Baha'i Faith with a more universal perspective. Miracles are not considered any sort of provent, and not meaningful to justify one's belief or non-belief. The e[eriences in miracles are simply unexplainable, an at best a personal experience. A previous post described some miracles is the Baha'i history, but , , ,

Of course, if you are demanding proof. The Baha'i Faith will not offer you any satisfaction.

Baha’is and Miracles

In 1850, at least ten thousand people witnessed a miraculous event in Baha’i history – the public martyrdom, by the Persian government, of the Bab.

bahaiteachings.org

…for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent. – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 99.

So are miracles possible? Certainly some Baha’is believe they have seen miraculous events occur, or even experienced them. However, the Baha’i Faith does not present miracles as a proof of anything; and in addition, Baha’u’llah specifically asked the Baha’is to not relate miracle stories, writing:

We entreat Our loved ones not to besmirch the hem of Our raiment with the dust of falsehood, neither to allow references to what they have regarded as miracles and prodigies to debase Our rank and station, or to mar the purity and sanctity of Our name. – Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 33

 

[Twilight Hue]

The doctors were unable to cure my severe asthma attack. A pastor prayed "Jesus, heal this man" and I was instantly healed.

You let that sink in.

You're unable to accept what actually happened. Your unbelief has blinded you.

Please don't throw out your asthma medicine.

 

[Madsaac]

Doubtful. Why would you uproot your entire way of life and living because random stranger on the internet told you about a miracle? That would be profoundly irrational. Surely you have more self-respect than that. And surely you have more respect of your fellow humans than to play these sorts of ridiculous games.

Or not.

Still waiting...........anyone, anything. If someone can show something I can then go and follow it up......have you ever heard of seen a miracle?

These huge religions have been on the something that just isn't there.

Maybe I'm wrong, I'll ask again anyone have anything, do you?