Challenging Judaism's politics

[Sakeenah]

Because Jews.

As a Muslim I have nothing against Jews, I have a problem with the opression against Palestinians by the Israeli Government. Muslims and Jews have lived in peace together for generations, and we actually have quite a few things in common. It's the politicians on both sides that want to divide us,and want to create hate between us.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Judaism does have an influence but the policies you discuss are political not religious and when religion has an influence it is in the presentation of Judaism in all its complexity, not a literalist application of a selected verse.

So the verse shouldn't apply to those being kicked out? Are we moving goal posts here? Why did an Israeli Jewish woman in the OP video mention about Jewish culture at 3:07-08? Is it not Jewish culture to be hospitable cross political and religious conviction?

 

[LuisDantas]

This should explain it :

Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses

Thanks for replying.

It is of course proper and necessary to question, monitor and when fitting challenge Israel's behavior in the region.

However, I am still left wondering about the general trend among Muslims. Particularly regarding the conflict of 1948.

It is all too easy for me to understand why Israelis felt the need to defend themselves from an armed invasion by four Arab states.

It is far more difficult to understand what motivated that invasion in the first place. I can understand wounded feelings from the British occupation and the decision to establish a modern Israel state. But to actually go to war for that, and so quickly and with not even a clear pretext, looks more than a little bit worrisome.

 

[LuisDantas]

As a Muslim I have nothing against Jews, I have a problem with the opression against Palestinians by the Israeli Government. Muslims and Jews have lived in peace together for generations, and we actually have quite a few things in common. It's the politicians on both sides that want to divide us,and want to create hate between us.

Politicians can only go so far without a modicum of popular support, though.

 

[LuisDantas]

Why are you making this about Muslims and Jews?

What do you mean?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

What do you mean?

You mentioned Muslims in your post....This has nothing to do with Palestinians and Israelies or Jews and Muslims. My question is why are you making this about that?

 

[LuisDantas]

You mentioned Muslims in your post....This has nothing to do with Palestinians and Israelies or Jews and Muslims. My question is why are you making this about that?

Sorry, but I don't think you can in good faith expect me to take that statement at all seriously.

I know I have no means to make the attempt, in any case.

 

[Lyndon]

Aren't the African refugees Christian, this isn't another Muslim bashing thread, maybe you should start another thread for your issues, Luis.

 

[Sakeenah]

Aren't the African refugees Christian, this isn't another Muslim bashing thread, maybe you should start another thread for your issues, Luis.

Good point, African asylum seekers in Israel comprise 0.5% of Israel's population and majority are actually Christians from South Sudan and Eritrea.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My thing is how is the lady in the video regarding wanting her land to be Jewish at 2:18. Why must the land be completely Jewish? with over 7 billion people on the planet and an increasingly small number of land to live why take on the same mentality her parents with through in Germany?

Suggesting such an equivalency is an ugly, irresponsible, and stupid defamation.

 

[rosends]

So the verse shouldn't apply to those being kicked out?

No, it shouldn't except in a very broad sense and within a much larger context.

There are entire branches of Judaism that see certain social behaviors as primary and understand Jewish law to focus more on those causes than on others. If they were in charge, maybe they would use that understanding to drive domestic policy.

Are we moving goal posts here?

No. But did you by taking a verse and deciding that your understanding of it applies here?

Why did an Israeli Jewish woman in the OP video mention about Jewish culture at 3:07-08?

Because to her personal understanding, that is an appropriate thing to mention. Is she more Jewish than I? Is her understanding more normative than that of many others? Why is it persuasive to you while what I say seems not to be?

Is it not Jewish culture to be hospitable cross political and religious conviction?

That's a much more complex question. First it assumes a monolithic construct called "Jewish culture" then it invokes the idea of "hospitable" which is up for discussion. And of course, then it calls into play the constant tension between religious law and secular law.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Sorry, but I don't think you can in good faith expect me to take that statement at all seriously.

I know I have no means to make the attempt, in any case.

I have every right to ask the question. This was mainly about the videos I posted with regards to immigration policies of the Israeli government and the spirit of the people.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Suggesting such an equivalency is an ugly, irresponsible, and stupid defamation.

Not really.....We are talking about a mentality here which I agree with you, is ugly (if that is where you're going but I know it wasn't). The idea of "this is my land" is in my opinion ugly. Like I told @rosends none of us has any right to any land as we all are inhabitants on this planet. When I was growing up, the Bloods and Crips used to kill each other over streets they've never paid taxes on, never owned a house, never even fixed a part of the street. They simply died over colors. But the mentality was all the same, "this is my hood," "this is my land, and I don't want nobody who looks like them over here."

The idea of "I want this to be a Jewish land" is no different in my view than what Hitler said the only difference is one is not killing millions of innocent people. The problem is nationalism. there is nothing wrong with pride but at the expense of being wrong towards foreigners makes that type of nationalism extreme. As I've supplied Ethiopian Jews were being targeted. Five Ethiopian Jewish girls were kicked out and seen as infiltrators. Who determines who is infiltrating what? Trump says something similar about Mexicans. Yet, the Israeli government, according to one of my sources made changes in the law for Russian Jews making aliyah, yet did nothing for the Ethiopian people?

When Jews start complaining about the system they're living under there resides a problem here that needs to be addressed.

 

[joe1776]

This thread isn't about Muslims and Jews

I respectfully point out that you made comments about Ethiopian Jews and American politics. Both off-topic.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Not really.....

Yes, really, and I say this as someone who I firmly believe has done a good deal more to oppose racism and nativism in Israel than you,

 

[Epic Beard Man]

No, it shouldn't except in a very broad sense and within a much larger context.

There are entire branches of Judaism that see certain social behaviors as primary and understand Jewish law to focus more on those causes than on others. If they were in charge, maybe they would use that understanding to drive domestic policy.

No. But did you by taking a verse and deciding that your understanding of it applies here?

Because to her personal understanding, that is an appropriate thing to mention. Is she more Jewish than I? Is her understanding more normative than that of many others? Why is it persuasive to you while what I say seems not to be?

That's a much more complex question. First it assumes a monolithic construct called "Jewish culture" then it invokes the idea of "hospitable" which is up for discussion. And of course, then it calls into play the constant tension between religious law and secular law.

The verse should be applicable to everyone and I find it applicable here, now you may think that it should be applicable elsewhere or should not even be used to make a point. The main point is right and wrong action. Whether you want to admit it or not there is something wrong with the Israeli government. Palestinian and Israeli issues aside, this is but a microcosm of the social issues I believe Israel is facing. You said (and I'll bold it) in the following:

"Why is it persuasive to you while what I say seems not to be?"

Because it's not the first time I've seen that. Before I make an opinion especially something like this I do my own research on it. Now, I'm not saying her views are normative of the society as a whole because I'm sure it isn't, but I'm more concerned about what is more influential. For example the reason why the United States backs Israel politically is because of some utilitarian ideal, but because the religious right wing conservatives who have money have influence and power. They don't care whether Jews believe in Jesus or not, they're looking for spiritual currency and influence in that region. The Israeli army could kill 10 million kids, men, and women and the right wing conservatives will not bat an eye.

My main concern is about right and wrong and to me this is wrong. Of course I'm an "outsider" this is why I believe the U.S. should rescind any ties to any Middle Eastern politics but that is another thread to discuss on that matter.

With respect to Jewish culture I'm not trying to make an assumption of whether it is a monolith or not, but I'm merely looking at it from simply the custom of the people in that region. From my understanding of fellow travelled classmates, the people in that region are very hospitable, or perhaps they're referring to the Palestinians. Then again I don't know but I'd like to infer that Jewish hospitality of a foreigner, ought to be like what God mentioned in the aforementioned verse.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

I respectfully point out that you made comments about Ethiopian Jews and American politics. Both off-topic.

I was replying to someone else. Perhaps you'd like to follow that discussion and understand where I came to the point of mentioning the two. I highlighted the Ethiopian Jews aspect because from my understanding, any Jews from around the world making aliyah, are welcomed in Israel. For the life of me 5 Ethiopian Jewish girls were seen as infiltrators so they were not "welcomed."

 

[QuestioningMind]

Thanks for replying.

It is of course proper and necessary to question, monitor and when fitting challenge Israel's behavior in the region.

However, I am still left wondering about the general trend among Muslims. Particularly regarding the conflict of 1948.

It is all too easy for me to understand why Israelis felt the need to defend themselves from an armed invasion by four Arab states.

It is far more difficult to understand what motivated that invasion in the first place. I can understand wounded feelings from the British occupation and the decision to establish a modern Israel state. But to actually go to war for that, and so quickly and with not even a clear pretext, looks more than a little bit worrisome.

"...and the decision to establish a modern Israel state. But to actually go to war for that..."

The establishment of the state required the removal of many people who had lived there for generations. If someone taking your land isn't a good reason to go to war against them, what would constitute a good reason in your mind?

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Yes, really, and I say this as someone who I firmly believe has done a good deal more to oppose racism and nativism in Israel than you,

Well, I commend you, but the fact that racism in Israel exists amidst the people and descendants who escaped a tyrant who was the ultimate racist in my opinion, I find it perplexing that such ugliness would continue to exist in the first place.

 

[rosends]

The verse should be applicable to everyone and I find it applicable here,

OK. But you asked about Judaism and Judaism doesn't agree with you.

The main point is right and wrong action.

In your mind. But in reality the issue is highly charged, complex and political. "right" and "wrong" are never so clear and trying to force religion (or one version of something related to religion) to clarify politics won't work.

Whether you want to admit it or not there is something wrong with the Israeli government.

That is a statement of your political opinion. If you want to make one, maybe a "Religious Debates" forum is not the best place. And if your goal is to conflate politics with your version of textual exegesis, then I don't think there is anything to discuss.

Because it's not the first time I've seen that.

And I'm sure that you have heard the contrary position. Have you done research into who the woman is and what drives her political views? Do you know if she speaks for Judaism in any formal sense? Is per place within the community one of any authority that your vesting value to her statement is reasonable?

I'm not saying her views are normative of the society as a whole because I'm sure it isn't,

So then asking about why Judaism doesn't enforce something but accepting that her position doesn't reflect normative Judaism answers your own question.

For example the reason why the United States backs Israel politically is because of some utilitarian ideal, but because the religious right wing conservatives who have money have influence and power.

This is another political opinion which you are expressing, and that you hold it informs your position on other points. You mistake your political opinion for a transcendent truth.

My main concern is about right and wrong and to me this is wrong.

Great. You are entitled to believe that. But it then bears no connection to the question in your original post which asks about "Judaism's politics."

that is another thread to discuss on that matter.

Have at it. It just won't be a question of religion. The definition of and iteration of hospitality in the mideast as an expression of religion or culture is more complex than you give it credit for, especially when combined with politics. If you wanted to boil it down to overly simplified strokes then you might as well ask why Arabs attacked Jews who moved into the mandate region if Arabs were so driven by hospitality and acceptance. Maybe this goes beyond reductionist statements.