Chief Sanhedrical Power: Siddur Reform

[Harel13]

JUDAISM DIR: Do not post if you are not a member of this DIR

Imagine that you have been handed the full authoritative force on changing Jewish law/customs (because I think it sounds cool, I called it "Chief Sanhedrical Power"), no voting necessarily. Bearing in mind that all modern siddur nusachim (rites) are all based on generations of prayer reforms, would you make your own change? If yes, what would it be? If not, why not?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

No. I lack the requisite knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

 

[rosends]

I would start to consolidate nuscha'ot. I mean, explain to me WHY someone wouldn;t say "morid hatal". I'm not saying THAT people don't say it, some don't and that is a valid nusach of the davening. But ask the random person "why" and he will say "because I don't." I think that there are a few things in davening that are simply a matter of rote practice and not logical deduction. Now, whether any sanhedrin today could have the power to tell people to change a nusach (no matter how inconsequential the change is) is a different question...

 

[Harel13]

No. I lack the requisite knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

That's an interesting and wise answer.

I would start to consolidate nuscha'ot. I mean, explain to me WHY someone wouldn;t say "morid hatal". I'm not saying THAT people don't say it, some don't and that is a valid nusach of the davening. But ask the random person "why" and he will say "because I don't." I think that there are a few things in davening that are simply a matter of rote practice and not logical deduction. Now, whether any sanhedrin today could have the power to tell people to change a nusach (no matter how inconsequential the change is) is a different question...

There have been some modern attempts at consolidating nusachim in Israel. I think the most well-known (and even that isn't too well-known) attempt was Rabbi Shlomo Goren's "Nusach Yisraeli". It's hard getting people to give up on their old customs.

 

[rosends]

That's an interesting and wise answer.

There have been some modern attempts at consolidating nusachim in Israel. I think the most well-known (and even that isn't too well-known) attempt was Rabbi Shlomo Goren's "Nusach Yisraeli". It's hard getting people to give up on their old customs.

Reminds me of a story --
I was at the kotel a few years ago, catching mincha, and an American guy turns to the person who is obviously the gabbai-type and asked "is this an Ashkenazi minyan or a Sephardi one?" and the guy looks surprised and says "it's the kotel -- it's an everybody minyan!"

As you well know, there are varying levels of "minhag" -- some which are just things we do and some which are elevated, through one method or another, to a level which rivals halacha. Some changes are just tinkering with words (like the exact wording of v'lamalshinim" or the inclusion/exclusion of the introductory hey- before words in the morning b'rachot (or maybe even "asher heichin" vs. "hameichin"), and some have more import and process behind them.

I have asked about things like this in the past and still don't have great answers

Can one change the wording of davening?
What is the difference between (for example) "notein" and "hanotein"?

though based on the exact question you ask - you posit and actual (and, I assume, accepted) sanhedrin, as opposed to anything of lesser power. A real sanhedrin might be able to do things.

 

[Harel13]

you posit and actual (and, I assume, accepted) sanhedrin

I do, although in the context of this thread, consider it any high power with the ability to enact real, groundbreaking changes.

 

[rosends]

I do, although in the context of this thread, consider it any high power with the ability to enact real, groundbreaking changes.

well then, forget the siddur. How about 1 day yom tov and kitniyot?

 

[RabbiO]

well then, forget the siddur. How about 1 day yom tov and kitniyot?

If I were a Reconstructionist I might have been tempted to respond to the OP with stating a desire for the movement’s siddur to include Musaf.

However, based on the conversation between you and @Harel13 so far, and your post to which I have appended this response, I suspect the premise of the OP has a much narrower scope than a discussion of the vast variety of siddurim found across the ideological spectrum of Judaism.

I don’t have an issue with that narrow focus, but I don’t believe I could make relevant contributions to the conversation as framed.

 

[Harel13]

well then, forget the siddur. How about 1 day yom tov and kitniyot?

Less relevant for this kind of thread. I was looking for a topic that I think most if not all of the members of this DIR can relate to. I was looking to hear thoughts on the way the siddur is constructed and/or different nusachim.

 

[Harel13]

However, based on the conversation between you and @Harel13 so far, and your post to which I have appended this response, I suspect the premise of the OP has a much narrower scope than a discussion of the vast variety of siddurim found across the ideological spectrum of Judaism.

I don’t have an issue with that narrow focus, but I don’t believe I could make relevant contributions to the conversation as framed.

It was not intended to be so narrow. I would be happy to hear what you have to say from a wider perspective. See my reply to @rosends in post #9.

 

[rosends]

Less relevant for this kind of thread. I was looking for a topic that I think most if not all of the members of this DIR can relate to. I was looking to hear thoughts on the way the siddur is constructed and/or different nusachim.

fine. Can you Sanhedrin decide if I'm supposed to say adon olam at the beginning or end of davening?

 

[Harel13]

fine. Can you Sanhedrin decide if I'm supposed to say adon olam at the beginning or end of davening?

Sure, why not? But in this thread you should decide (if you want). But better to give your reasoning.

 

[rosends]

Sure, why not? But in this thread you should decide (if you want). But better to give your reasoning.

well, the argument for the end is clear: "I need time to fold my tallit". But because of the exact message in it and its centrality and importance, it thematically makes sense at the beginning when many fewer people will remember to say it.

Maybe the middle would be better...

 

[Harel13]

But because of the exact message in it and its centrality and importance, it thematically makes sense at the beginning when many fewer people will remember to say it.

Wait, I'm confused. If many people forget to say it at the beginning, why would it make sense to put it there?

 

[Harel13]

If I were a Reconstructionist I might have been tempted to respond to the OP with stating a desire for the movement’s siddur to include Musaf.

I didn't know this, but then again, I barely know anything about Reconstructionist Judaism. Do you know why they don't say Musaf? And what importance do you see in Musaf that you think they should incorporate it into their siddur?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., would you make your own change? If yes, what would it be? If not, why not?

Just a note: I interpreted the above to mean "..., would you (successfully) impose your own change?".

 

[rosends]

Wait, I'm confused. If many people forget to say it at the beginning, why would it make sense to put it there?

for the same reason that it makes sense to put it at the end specifically because I need time to fold my tallit.

It is a beautiful poem and a really deep prayer with incredibly central claims and a message integral to jewish identity but our choices are either in the part that everyone skips, or the part that no one pays attention to because a 6 year old is up there shouting.

 

[Harel13]

Just a note: I interpreted the above to mean "..., would you (successfully) impose your own change?".

How about this: Say you fully plan out a change but at the last minute, before emailing the new directive to the entire Jewish people, you delete it because you don't want to impose the change. What would that change have been?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

How about this: Say you fully plan out a change but at the last minute, before emailing the new directive to the entire Jewish people, you delete it because you don't want to impose the change. What would that change have been?

Kashrut. Its ability to cohere and confirm strikes me as more than significant.

 

[rosends]

Institute the saying of vidui and 13 midot before tachanun everyday for Ashkenazim also.