children on other peoples social media

[Curious George]

I actually think it's kind of rude to ask people at a birthday party not to take or post photos of your children. Taking pictures of kids at their birthday party should be expected. If people object to having their kids picture taken and shared, they should not bring them. If someone asked me at my kids birthday party to not take or share pictures of the event that captured their child, I would ask them to leave.

Even for good reason? If our kids were bffs, and were having a good time and I came up to you and said, hey, sorry to ask this, but my ex wife is crazy and has tried to kidnap little so-and-so, we are trying to avoid pictures of them online, can you please not post any pics with little so-and-so. If there are any group pictures, I will make sure little so-and-so is not in the pic, and if you want any pics of the kids together that you won't post, feel free." You would then ask me and your child's bff to leave the party?

 

[freethinker44]

I am not sure this is completely correct. Yes, photographers have ownership, states and jurisdiction can limit or even change this depending on the content of the photo. This will get very messy if we try to fit regular photos into copyright law. But if the picture is invasive, I am pretty sure courts have given copyright to the person featured. If it is a non invasive pic in a public setting, I think it is then completely owned by photographer.

In general, the person taking the picture owns the copyright if there is no prior agreement or expectation of privacy. I'm sure of this. It could be possible to prove an expectation of privacy in very specific situations in public, such as upskirt shots, or other invasive pics as you said.

 

[Politesse]

Umm, they don't. Unless there is a contract stating otherwise, the photographers own the copyrights.

It's true that the photographer has default copyright, but not that they have utter discretion over its distribution. At least here in the US. Not always enforced, but anyone who publishes pictures of children knows that this is important. There's almost always a contract (or at least a brief statement of consent, because there has to be if you want to avoid potential complications later. Copyright law is less than straightforward, in any country.

 

[4consideration]

I think a person would be inclined to share a picture of their child if the picture was cute. Frontloading works great for the birthday invitees, but in public parks? What if another child, that was not part of the event, is in the pic and is identifiable? Is there an obligation to pursue consent? What of children posting pictures of themselves and friends?

Those are some good questions.

I'm not inclined to post a lot of pictures. When my kids were that little, I made a point of not taking pictures where kids we didn't know would be in them because I was concerned that might appear creepy. I think if I ended up wanting to post a pic with a child that just happened to be in it, but was not someone I could check with, I'd find a way to remove the child, or blur the image. I, personally, feel an obligation to pursue consent. But,I wouldn't argue that it is some kind of dastardly deed to post a pic of someone without permission, unless it was done with malice.

Regarding children posting pictures of themselves and friends, the way I have dealt with that it to not give them easy access to that. They still have flip phones. (Ha, Ha.) What I have told them is to not allow anyone to take a photo of them they would not want the whole world to see. When they get access to the technology that would allow them to instantly post photographs online, we'll have that talk more in depth. I guess I'd take the "Golden Rule" approach, "Do not post pics of others you would not want posted of you. You're sure you have their permission to post when you ask the person in the pic and they say, "yes."

I don't think is so much a PC issue, as it is a privacy issue that simply didn't exist in the recent past.

 

[freethinker44]

Even for good reason? If our kids were bffs, and were having a good time and I came up to you and said, hey, sorry to ask this, but my ex wife is crazy and has tried to kidnap little so-and-so, we are trying to avoid pictures of them online, can you please not post any pics with little so-and-so. If there are any group pictures, I will make sure little so-and-so is not in the pic, and if you want any pics of the kids together that you won't post, feel free." You would then ask me and your child's bff to leave the party?

Every situation is different and there are always exceptions. Certainly trying to avoid a kidnapping falls into the exceptions category, and even in that event, I would think it's rude to show up to an event like that and ask that people don't take or share photos. I mean, that's not really a reasonable request. If they're best friends they will probably be together a lot during the party, so what? I should not post any photos of my kid at their birthday party because her best friend is always in the shot? That's just me though. I live 1000 miles away from my family, social media is the only connection they have to my kids apart from the once per year visits. So yeah, if it bothers you, leave, I'm posting them.

 

[4consideration]

I actually think it's kind of rude to ask people at a birthday party not to take or post photos of your children. Taking pictures of kids at their birthday party should be expected. If people object to having their kids picture taken and shared, they should not bring them. If someone asked me at my kids birthday party to not take or share pictures of the event that captured their child, I would ask them to leave.

Well, if I was at your party and I asked you not to post pictures of my child, and you were not willing to honor that request, I'd take that as an indication that when it came to my child, you would hold your own personal inclinations over the child's parental wishes. I would not wish to have my child in your presence, so it would be a mutual thing to part ways, and for me it would probably be permanently.

I did at one time have a "friend" (not a romantic one) that went off the deep end mentally after he was informed my family as moving. (I guess he felt abandoned.) I became convince he had the real potential to be a danger to my children. I definitely did not want that person to know where we had moved to, and posted nothing about them online for several years. There is no party, or friendship, that I would hold as more important than protecting my children, and if it was a situation like that, and you couldn't respect a parent not wanting their child's picture made public -- and you were only concerned about what you wanted -- I wouldn't think you were my friend, anyway -- so that would be the end of that.

 

[freethinker44]

Well, if I was at your party and I asked you not to post pictures of my child, and you were not willing to honor that request, I'd take that as an indication that when it came to my child, you would hold your own personal inclinations over the child's parental wishes. I would not wish to have my child in your presence, so it would be a mutual thing to part ways, and for me it would probably be permanently.

As it should be.

I did at one time have a "friend" (not a romantic one) that went off the deep end mentally after he was informed my family as moving. (I guess he felt abandoned.) I became convince he had the real potential to be a danger to my children. I definitely did not want that person to know where we had moved to, and posted nothing about them online for several years. There is no party, or friendship, that I would hold as more important than protecting my children, and if it was a situation like that, and you couldn't respect a parent not wanting their child's picture made public -- and you were only concerned about what you wanted -- I wouldn't think you were my friend, anyway -- so that would be the end of that.

And do you avoid places where there is an expectation of photography typically shared on social media, or do you show up and demand they stop?

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, yes, and if someone is incapable of understanding why this hyperbole is not a realistic portrayal, then no amount of explaining is going to help.

Are you seriously not aware of the amount of bullying and harassment that happens across social media, internet forums, and the like? Really? It's even worse when it involves children, because not only can they not give informed consent, they don't have the maturity to weather the toxic gossip clouds that can emerge from these things and these things can be dredged up when they're adults for gods knows what sort of purpose. Do seriously think nothing bad ever comes from these things? I recognize these things are not common, but they do happen. I know people who have been victims of online slander campaigns within their peer groups, and I know how damaging it is. It is completely irresponsible to pretend that these things are not problems and to not consider the ramifications of posting personal information on a global information network.

 

[4consideration]

And do you avoid places where there is an expectation of photography typically shared on social media, or do you show up and demand they stop?

What? That doesn't even make sense. What are the places where there is an expectation of photography typically shared on social media? I'm not a teenager hanging out in teenager places. I don't hang out in other public places, like bars (not since I've had kids.) So, I don't know what you're talking about. If some stranger were to start focusing on me or my children, to take a picture without my permission, I'd tell them to stop. I don't care if someone thinks I owe it to some stranger to let them photograph me just because I'm in public.

I couldn't care less what other people do. If people want to post selfies and endless pics of themselves and their kids on Facebook or some other location, I don't care. If there's too much of that stuff online, I skip over it anyway. I don't think anyone is as interested in seeing endless pics of one's kids as the parents may be interested in posting them. It gets old to see too many pictures of people's kids, and pets, etc.

I find it very interesting when a person mentions something they don't want to be involved in, that people stretch that into assuming the person is demanding that other people don't do it. I haven't demanded anyone stop doing anything. You can take all the public pics of yourself that you want. I won't bother you a bit about it. Just don't expect me to be in them, or interested in seeing them.

I answered the OP's questions about what I think is appropriate in particular situations, as well as a little background info as to a real reason I might have expressed desire at a birthday party that my kids pics not be posted online -- since that was the situation presented in the OP. My kids are old enough now that I don't worry about the same things I did when they were very small. However, having had small kids I would hope that I would remember to have the same concern for the safety of someone else's small children --- that if a parent expressed concern about not wanting photographs made public, it would be a no-brainer for me to respect that wish.

If you don't care who posts your kids' pics, that's fine. You don't have to see things the way I do.

I draw the boundaries that I think are appropriate to the situation.

 

[freethinker44]

What? That doesn't even make sense. What are the places where there is an expectation of photography typically shared on social media?

Birthday parties, for one. The example that has been used throughout this whole thread beginning with the OP.

I find it very interesting when a person mentions something they don't want to be involved in, that people stretch that into assuming the person is demanding that other people don't do it. I haven't demanded anyone stop doing anything. You can take all the public pics of yourself that you want. I won't bother you a bit about it. Just don't expect me to be in them, or interested in seeing them.

Come on now, let's not get caught up in semantics, asking someone to do something (stop taking or posting pictures at their kid's birthday party) with a threat attached (if they don't you'll cut them out of your life) is a demand. So it was simple question, given that you have reservations about your children's picture being taken and posted online, do you avoid places where there is an expectation of photography typically shared on social media, such as a child's birthday party, or do you show up knowing there will be pictures taken and demand they stop?

 

[Koldo]

It's funny to me that you said I could be unreasonable if I want to, by comparing posting pics online to a billboard, yet you seem to be comparing posting pics online to photo albums that have traditionally remained in the home, and viewed only by people actually known to the family, and while in the family home. I think a billboard is closer for online photographs than a photo album.

And yet I have already stated that if the parents request for a photo not be published online, that such wish should be respected and granted.
Therefore, I recognize it is not the same thing from the very start.

I realize that you did not say it was unreasonable for a parent not to want their child's picture made public.

I did not mean what you seem to think I meant about not going around and posting people's pics. What I meant was I don't go around taking people's pictures and assuming it's ok to post them online. That means anyone. I don't post other people's pictures online without their permission. Period. I think it's rude. Even though the picture is taken with knowledge and consent, does not automatically mean I think it's ok to post it online.

Not even if you are in the pic yourself ?

I think that especially for small children, to post a lot of pics online from something like a birthday party -- multiple pics of the activities, location, and attendees is dumb. It can give a predator plenty of information to be convincing to a child that he/she is known and safe...talking about who was there, where it was, what they did. For those that want to broadcast that kind of information, that's their business.

In the OP the scenario involves parents that have come forward to say they don't want their children's pics posted online.

I take it a step further. I think parents that don't want their kids pics broadcast should be given the opportunity to know about it. To me, the duty always lies with the person who is taking the action, rather than the one who is not. If you are posting, it's your duty to at least alert parents to your intent to post. It's not someone else's job to guess that you will be posting their pics online.

Exactly. That was mentioned in the OP.

I never said the parents couldn't talk to the host. But...I think the host should let parents know they are planning to post pics and give the opportunity to say no. At the very least, though, if a parent brings it up, the request should be honored. The host ought to announce it up front, so that they can make sure to get photographs they'd like to post, with kids whose parents have given permission.

Even in the most benign situations, IMO it's prudent to ask and get a parent's permission for certain things.

And I have already explained why I think and feel otherwise.

 

[Curious George]

Are you seriously not aware of the amount of bullying and harassment that happens across social media, internet forums, and the like? Really? It's even worse when it involves children, because not only can they not give informed consent, they don't have the maturity to weather the toxic gossip clouds that can emerge from these things and these things can be dredged up when they're adults for gods knows what sort of purpose. Do seriously think nothing bad ever comes from these things? I recognize these things are not common, but they do happen. I know people who have been victims of online slander campaigns within their peer groups, and I know how damaging it is. It is completely irresponsible to pretend that these things are not problems and to not consider the ramifications of posting personal information on a global information network.

Are you sure you understand about what we are talking?

 

[Curious George]

Every situation is different and there are always exceptions. Certainly trying to avoid a kidnapping falls into the exceptions category, and even in that event, I would think it's rude to show up to an event like that and ask that people don't take or share photos. I mean, that's not really a reasonable request. If they're best friends they will probably be together a lot during the party, so what? I should not post any photos of my kid at their birthday party because her best friend is always in the shot? That's just me though. I live 1000 miles away from my family, social media is the only connection they have to my kids apart from the once per year visits. So yeah, if it bothers you, leave, I'm posting them.

Is it rude to show up? I can only imagine in such a situation that I would want my child to have as normal as possible of a life. I see the goal of the birthday party to be an event for the children not a modeling shoot to produce pictures. I would imagine the birthday child's parents would want their child to have close friends present. Trying to manage a situation with flexibility so the children have as meaningful time as possible would be better than just not showing up or declining the invitation in my humble opinion. That said, I am not sure what the right answer is, or what is reasonable or unreasonable in this situation, while I certainly believe in respecting other parents wishes, I also understand that technology has changed life. I see both rational and irrational reasons for not wanting a picture online, I see rational and irrational reasons for the assumption that it is okay to post others pics online. I think the scenario combines many aspects such as technology changing the world, parenting styles, irrational and rational fears, expectations of privacy, consent, ownership, social etiquette, etc. Into a common experience to which people can relate. what is more, I think that most people have acted in a manner which is inconsistent with the most thoughtful answer. Who has posted pics and hasn't posted pics of someone without their explicit consent. I would be surprised if any parent that has routinely posted pics of their children has gotten permission to post pics of all of the other children featured or otherwise appearing in those pics.

I wonder if people have the same concern with children posting pics. A child might for instance post a pic of their friends and a sibling in insta, or snapchat, etc without a second thought. This child might belong to the same parent who feels other adults should request their permission. A child might post pics of themselves. A parent might post pics of their children (and other children) but expect other parents not to post. I wondered how others felt. I am interested in the inconsistencies in logic and in the way we handle social etiquette issues such as this.

Thank you for sharing, you have made some great points.

 

[whereismynotecard]

I don't think you should post photos of other people's kids on social media unless you know they'd be okay with it. (Or, unless you're in public and some random kid gets in your photo, like in the background at a museum or something. When you're in public, you're kind of fair game - background wise...) The only photos I've ever uploaded with other people's kids in them would be photos of my younger cousins or my older cousins' children... and I'm facebook friends with those cousins, and tag them in it, so if they had an issue with it, they could ask me to take it down. So maybe if all the parents are friends on social media they could upload photos of each other's children as a way to share them with each other.

Posting photos of children online can be pretty dangerous though and should probably be something mostly reserved to the child's family, so they can make the safest choices about how to post the photo/who to share it with. Some people's facebook accounts aren't set to private so literally anyone could see the photos if all your child's friends' parents are posting their photo on their accounts, and since many people geo-tag things or mention stuff about their hometowns, like saying they're going to blah blah high school's football game, a predator could make a reasonable guess as to where they might find this child they just stalked online. Even posting photos of your own child online when they are young and if your profile isn't private is pretty unwise.

I think if someone asks you to take down a photo with their child in it, you should probably take it down. Or at least crop their child out. I'm not a parent, but I imagine if I were (especially a parent to a younger child) I wouldn't want their picture plastered all over the internet.

 

[4consideration]

Birthday parties, for one. The example that has been used throughout this whole thread beginning with the OP.


Come on now, let's not get caught up in semantics, asking someone to do something (stop taking or posting pictures at their kid's birthday party) with a threat attached (if they don't you'll cut them out of your life) is a demand. So it was simple question, given that you have reservations about your children's picture being taken and posted online, do you avoid places where there is an expectation of photography typically shared on social media, such as a child's birthday party, or do you show up knowing there will be pictures taken and demand they stop?

I never said or implied that I would insist someone stop taking pictures at a birthday party. All my comments have been about posting pics online, and that I think it's the duty of the person who plans to make it public to mention it, or at least respect the wishes of the parent if asked not to.

I already answered about birthday parties in the earlier part of this thread, and have pasted a part of that below. I haven't made it a big issue in real life. I had a concern about it in the past because of a particular person, not just the possibility of some random person being a danger, and I did not post my kid's pics online for a few year. I was not in a situation where I had to mention it to many others...maybe one or two times that I asked family members not to, and told them why. They understood, and it wasn't an issue.

We are talking about the OP, and why people may feel the way they do, and what they might do

...I haven't made an issue of it with anyone in my personal life. The whole point I was making was that I think it is the duty of the people taking pictures to let people know IN ADVANCE if they know they plan to make those pictures public.

I don't think it's something everyone should take for granted that just because they have the ability to snap pictures and post them on the internet, that it somehow gives them the right to assume other people should want them to do it -- without simply checking with the parents....

You are the one that said you'd tell your child's bbf's parent to leave your kid's birthday party for simply requesting you not share (which I understand to mean publicly post pics) of their kid.

In the digital age, it's not difficult to take a lot of pics, and I don't see it as much of a burden to simply not post ones involving specific children. You said you would ask a person to leave the party for asking that. I said with your unwillingness to consider the request/reason, like concern for safety (and your attitude) if I were in that situation, I would not really think of you as a friend. I would think there was not enough common ground for friendship if posting specific pics online was more important than safety concerns. I wouldn't trust your judgment regarding safety priorities as it might relate to my child, so I wouldn't want you around my child. Sorry to say that, but that's most likely how I would see it.

I make a distinction between an event and recording that event. I'm not all about pictures. In fact some times I get so caught up in an event, I forget to take pictures. If the primary goal of the party is for the pictures, that's one thing. In that case, I guess it would make sense to send people away that don't fulfill your needs or wishes.

Sounds to me like sending pictures to your family is more important to you for your kid's birthday party than their own enjoyment of their own party -- if you would send their bff away because you were asked not to post the bff's pic online. You could explain to the kid that their wishes are not as important as what get posted online -- and why you couldn't just take pictures that include their bff, but not post them online. I think it's unwillingness, not inability. Of course, the choice would yours to make. My kids would have seen right through that one and called me on it, "You mean you care more about pictures than about me having fun with my friend at my own birthday party?"

If the pictures are secondary, and a recording of a happy event, that may be an entirely different thing. In that situation, the fun is primary, and how it is presented to others later on is secondary. To each, his own.

 

[4consideration]

And yet I have already stated that if the parents request for a photo not be published online, that such wish should be respected and granted.
Therefore, I recognize it is not the same thing from the very start.

Ok. Then we are on that same page on that point.

Not even if you are in the pic yourself ?

Not even if I am in a pic myself. I don't post much along the lines of pics, so it's not difficult.

(edit: I just realized this response wasn't entirely accurate. It's accurate that I don't take pics, and post them online without the person's permission, like I said. However, I just copy & pasted a pic of a celebrity (Kevin Bacon) in a joke thread, and I didn't ask him -- so in that sense, I might post those kinds of things, or meme's without seeking out permission of the person.)

And I have already explained why I think and feel otherwise

You have. I'm ok with agreeing to disagree.

 

[Quintessence]

Are you sure you understand about what we are talking?

Yes. Now can you answer the question: do you genuinely believe nothing bad ever comes from people unscrupulously sharing information - whether it's a photo or something else - on a network that distributes information across the world? That it never, ever has the potential to be abused? I'd think that this alone would make it entirely reasonable for anyone, at any time, for any reason, to request such information not be posted online.

But more importantly than that, I would think that a basic sense of respect of one's fellows would be more than enough. That when a person makes a request like "can you make a vegetarian option or do I need to bring my own" or "I'm not comfortable with pictures of myself (or my child) being shared on social media, so are you going to respect that or should I not attend" these things are simply honored and people not mocked for being who they are. Good manners and basic courtesy are common sense. Or, apparently, not. I'm amazed that one would have to explain these things, if not horrified. Then again, basic courtesy and manners have pretty much gone down the toilet, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, especially since the internet was a major player in that deterioration.

 

[Curious George]

I don't think you should post photos of other people's kids on social media unless you know they'd be okay with it. (Or, unless you're in public and some random kid gets in your photo, like in the background at a museum or something. When you're in public, you're kind of fair game - background wise...) The only photos I've ever uploaded with other people's kids in them would be photos of my younger cousins or my older cousins' children... and I'm facebook friends with those cousins, and tag them in it, so if they had an issue with it, they could ask me to take it down. So maybe if all the parents are friends on social media they could upload photos of each other's children as a way to share them with each other.

Posting photos of children online can be pretty dangerous though and should probably be something mostly reserved to the child's family, so they can make the safest choices about how to post the photo/who to share it with. Some people's facebook accounts aren't set to private so literally anyone could see the photos if all your child's friends' parents are posting their photo on their accounts, and since many people geo-tag things or mention stuff about their hometowns, like saying they're going to blah blah high school's football game, a predator could make a reasonable guess as to where they might find this child they just stalked online. Even posting photos of your own child online when they are young and if your profile isn't private is pretty unwise.

I think if someone asks you to take down a photo with their child in it, you should probably take it down. Or at least crop their child out. I'm not a parent, but I imagine if I were (especially a parent to a younger child) I wouldn't want their picture plastered all over the internet.

The Stalker locating the child is a pretty far fetched scenario, unless it is a stalker that already knows the child.

 

[Curious George]

Yes. Now can you answer the question: do you genuinely believe nothing bad ever comes from people unscrupulously sharing information - whether it's a photo or something else - on a network that distributes information across the world? That it never, ever has the potential to be abused? I'd think that this alone would make it entirely reasonable for anyone, at any time, for any reason, to request such information not be posted online.

But more importantly than that, I would think that a basic sense of respect of one's fellows would be more than enough. That when a person makes a request like "can you make a vegetarian option or do I need to bring my own" or "I'm not comfortable with pictures of myself (or my child) being shared on social media, so are you going to respect that or should I not attend" these things are simply honored and people not mocked for being who they are. Good manners and basic courtesy are common sense. Or, apparently, not. I'm amazed that one would have to explain these things, if not horrified. Then again, basic courtesy and manners have pretty much gone down the toilet, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, especially since the internet was a major player in that deterioration.

Sure bad things can happen. Although I am not quite sure this falls under the "unscrupulous" category. What bad do you think is going to happen for a person posting a pic on social media of kids at a birthday party? Now before you start listing those doomsday scenarios, take a moment? Are there other factors involved? What are those other factors? Are we addressing a scenario that is likely, unlikely, extremely unlikely, not even a reality? Are there steps that can further decrease the likelihood of these scenarios? Is there a legitimate concern?

Using language to create the illusion of a concern does not actually create a concern. So you are welcome to load the language by stressing global and what not all you want, it changes nothing. Moreover, you are welcome to toss around feel good language about "honesty" and "respect" again it changes nothing. If there is an obligation, social or otherwise, make the argument. If not, and you just feel a certain way, thank you for contributing your personal feelings, though I would enjoy hearing your argument as well, it is not expected or required.

Cheers.

 

[Iti oj]

Yes. Now can you answer the question: do you genuinely believe nothing bad ever comes from people unscrupulously sharing information - whether it's a photo or something else - on a network that distributes information across the world? That it never, ever has the potential to be abused? I'd think that this alone would make it entirely reasonable for anyone, at any time, for any reason, to request such information not be posted online.

But more importantly than that, I would think that a basic sense of respect of one's fellows would be more than enough. That when a person makes a request like "can you make a vegetarian option or do I need to bring my own" or "I'm not comfortable with pictures of myself (or my child) being shared on social media, so are you going to respect that or should I not attend" these things are simply honored and people not mocked for being who they are. Good manners and basic courtesy are common sense. Or, apparently, not. I'm amazed that one would have to explain these things, if not horrified. Then again, basic courtesy and manners have pretty much gone down the toilet, so maybe I shouldn't be so surprised, especially since the internet was a major player in that deterioration.

at a party that's not a 'respectful' or realistic request thats basically like asking all parents not take and share pictures . that is not fair.