Choices

[Ori]

If there is a God (which I believe so) , do we really have freewill to make our own choices?

Because if God knows everything, then God will know exactly what you are going to do, so how can you you be responsible for a predetermined course of action?

 

[Valjean]

This is the position of the Calvinistic protestant denominations, Orich. Your ultimate fate is predetermined at birth and no action on your part can alter it.

 

[Katzpur]

If there is a God (which I believe so) , do we really have freewill to make our own choices?

Because if God knows everything, then God will know exactly what you are going to do, so how can you you be responsible for a predetermined course of action?

It might seem like splitting hairs, but in my opinion, the fact that God is omnipotent doesn't mean that He has mapped out your life in such detail that there is nothing left for you to do but go through the motions of doing what He has pre-programmed you to do. I just see His omnipotence as meaning that He has a perfect understanding of all things, and knows each of us perfectly.

I have two Collies. If I were to leave a huge, juicy steak on my kitchen counter within easy reach of my dogs and were then to leave the room for an hour, I can pretty much guarantee that when I went back into the kitchen, the steak would be gone. Nobody would have forced my dogs to eat it, but that would be typical of their behavior. My knowing it was going to happen would not make it happen. My dogs wouldn't have eaten the steak for any other reason than that they chose to do so. They were free to eat it whether I could predict it was going to happen or not. So their action wasn't predetermined by me or by them. I just know them pretty well.

Well, we're a lot more complex in our thought processes than my dogs, and we are capable of making a decision based on something more than satisfying our basic instincts. God just knows us well enough to know what we will do when faced with a given set of choices. But we make the choices we do independently of His knowledge.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Silly human: you presume to try and understand the unfathomable.

 

[michel]

Silly human: you presume to try and understand the unfathomable.

Oh dear, that makes me a silly human..................:biglaugh:

Ori! Long time no see (I think).......

Because if God knows everything, then God will know exactly what you are going to do, so how can you you be responsible for a predetermined course of action?

Bear with me;

The red spot at the top of the maze is you, at birth. The spot at the bottom is you at the time of your death.

You have choices at each bi-furcation (you can make a choice as to which way you go); however, as you can see from the Maize, you will need to make the right choices to come out at the right place when you die.

Sure, God knows where you are a birth, and may know how you will be tempted to react
when some of the options are given to you.

What is there to stop God from having the knowledge of every single possible permutation of all the paths you might take ? That would mean that the idea of predestination is maintained, whilst allowing you free will at every step..............

Does that compute ?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Oh dear, that makes me a silly human.

As most of us are!

 

[Fluffy]

Orichalum, there are better arguments against freewill which do not have the handicap of involving the existence of an omniscient god. Omniscience cannot coexist with freewill, there is little debate on this matter in my mind any longer. However, this is irrelevant since we already exist under a set of parameters that prevent the existence of free will in the first place.

However, this is not difficult to get around. There is no religious text, to my knowledge, that uses the term so a theist is not forced to believe in the logical paradox.

Michel, your maze is not an example of omniscience since I can find things in it which God would not be able to know before they happened. Either God knows the route through the maze or he is limited to only knowing the possible routes, not the one you will actually take... he needs the first to attain omniscience.

Katzpur, your example isn't an example of knowledge. 100% certainty is required for belief to become certainty, otherwise God would just have a very strong hunch about everything rather than knowing everything.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

I think you have to act as though you do. Otherwise you start using it as an excuse. Of course, if your life really is predestined, then you'd have no choice in believing or not that there's free will, and round and round we go

 

[Katzpur]

There is no religious text, to my knowledge, that uses the term so a theist is not forced to believe in the logical paradox.

I believe you're absolutely right about that. Arguing this topic is about as pointless as arguing whether God could create a rock so big that He could not lift it. There is no right answer, and God always comes out on the losing end. But then I'm not aware of any religious texts that use the words "omnipotent" or "omnipresent" either. They are words we humans have used to describe God. But as soon as we use them, we are forced to deal with the dilemmas they pose.

Katzpur, your example isn't an example of knowledge. 100% certainty is required for belief to become certainty, otherwise God would just have a very strong hunch about everything rather than knowing everything.

Well, you may be right, but I generally don't use the word "omniscient" myself except when I make the mistake of getting involved in an argument with someone who does. All I was really trying to say was that God knows each one of us perfectly, but His knowledge doesn't preclude our having free will. I really don't see much point to trying to pick apart our own terminology, which is all we're doing here. I really wish I had just remained silent on this issue.

 

[standing_on_one_foot]

Maybe G-d doesn't know what's going to happen? At least not about the little human actions. In the big sense of glaxies and whatnot, you can pretty well know what's going to happen.

I still maintain my theory that the universe is some science project G-d has to do for class. You know, "You will create a universe. The speed of light must be no less than 150,000 miles per second, inertia is required, objects in motion are to remain in motion unless acted on by an outside force, there's a minimum of three dimensions, the project is due in 20 billion years, don't think I don't see you two passing notes back there, and yes, extra credit will be awarded for each sentient species your universe produces."

Um, actually I don't maintain, but what's the point in being religious if you can't be flippant every now and then? One of these days I will be struck by lightning, and no one will be surprised

 

[Peace]

If there is a God (which I believe so) , do we really have freewill to make our own choices?

Because if God knows everything, then God will know exactly what you are going to do, so how can you you be responsible for a predetermined course of action?

Peace be with you ori,

Concerning free will, yes each one of us has a free will. God of course is omniscient He is the One who created us so He knows what our life will be and what will be the end because He is omniscient and knows everything. But this doesn't mean that we have no free will like slaves. God created within everyone of us the good side and the evil side and He has given us the freedom of will and choice, so it is us who choose which side will overcome the other. God is Just and He won't predetermin our actions. If He predetermined our lives so why He would have created us. God is Just and He created us free to choose the path that we want. And He is Just because He sent His Prophets to show us the way and guide us to Him, and He set signs in the universe to contemplate and it is up to us either to follow and believe Him or disblieve.

Peace