Christ Has returned, what should have we looked for?

[TransmutingSoul]

This thread is simple. This is about the promise of Christ Return.

From a Baha'i point of view this event has happened and was Fulfilled in the Messages of the Bab ("Gate") and Baha'u'llah ("Glory of God", or "Glory of the Lord").

As many await this event, both Christians and Muslims, how did we miss the greatest moment in History to date, would be the over-riding question to consider with this OP.

But lets go for a further three options;

What should have we looked for?
What are you still waiting for?
Why are you sitting with popcorn?

 

[wizanda]

What should have we looked for?

Matthew 24:26-33 If therefore they tell you, ‘Behold, he is in the wilderness,’ don’t go out; ‘Behold, he is in the inner rooms,’ don’t believe it. (27) For as the lightning flashes from the east, and is seen even to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. (28) For wherever the carcass is, that is where the vultures gather together. (29) But immediately after the oppression of those days, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken; (30) and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. (31) He will send out his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. (32) “Now from the fig tree learn this parable. When its branch has now become tender, and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near. (33) Even so you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mark 13:24-29 But in those days, after that oppression, the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give its light, (25) the stars will be falling from the sky, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. (26) Then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. (27) Then he will send out his angels, and will gather together his chosen ones from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the sky. (28) “Now from the fig tree, learn this parable. When the branch has now become tender, and produces its leaves, you know that the summer is near; (29) even so you also, when you see these things coming to pass, know that it is near, at the doors.

Luke 21:25-31 There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and on the earth anxiety of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the waves; (26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. (27) Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) But when these things begin to happen, look up, and lift up your heads, because your redemption is near.” (29) He told them a parable. “See the fig tree, and all the trees. (30) When they are already budding, you see it and know by your own selves that the summer is already near. (31) Even so you also, when you see these things happening, know that God’s Kingdom is near.

So the Fig is the regrowth of Judah, and all nations coming against it; now fair enough it is possible Christ returns at the midnight hour (Matthew 25:1-13, Mark 13:35-37) as a thief (Revelation 3:3, Revelation 16:15), to fight with the words from his mouth how people are not following what was taught...

Yet no one is expected to come along, and agree with all the fake religions in the world.

What are you still waiting for?

WW3, CME, volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, sun being darkened, moon not giving light, stars falling, and then sky rolled up like a scroll...

Other than this and a new reality, the person can not be 'Christ', as 'The Christ' brings the Messianic Age.

Just to verify this as well, also read Zoroastrian (Saoshyant), Hindu (Kalki & Kali), Taoist (Li Hong), Buddhist (Maitreya/Kalki), Islamic texts, as the world savoir comes at the time just before destruction by fire.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

In my opinion.

It is great to chat to you wizanda, your opinion most welcome. That is what this is about, my hope is that we can explore those opinions with a quote to consider;

WW3, CME, volcanoes, earthquakes, tornadoes, sun being darkened, moon not giving light, stars falling, and then sky rolled up like a scroll...

Do you expect them to be all Material happenings, or do you think there could also be a spiritual aspect to them as well?

This is what Baha'u'llah has said on some of this; I will be using the Kitab-i-quan for most explanations.

"This is the purpose underlying the symbolic words of the Manifestations of God. Consequently, the application of the terms “sun” and “moon” to the things already mentioned hath been demonstrated and justified by the text of the sacred verses and the recorded traditions. Hence, it is clear and manifest that by the words “the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven” is intended the waywardness of the divines, and the annulment of laws firmly established by divine Revelation, all of which, in symbolic language, have been foreshadowed by the Manifestation of God........It is unquestionable that in every succeeding Revelation the “sun” and “moon” of the teachings, laws, commandments, and prohibitions which have been established in the preceding Dispensation, and which have overshadowed the people of that age, become darkened, that is, are exhausted, and cease to exert their influence....."

Other than this and a new reality, the person can not be 'Christ', as 'The Christ' brings the Messianic Age.

What do you see this age will include?

Just to verify this as well, also read Zoroastrian (Saoshyant), Hindu (Kalki & Kali), Taoist (Li Hong), Buddhist (Maitreya/Kalki), Islamic texts, as the world savoir comes at the time just before destruction by fire.

Yes all Gods Faiths await the time when the Most Great Peace is promised. Baha'u'llah is the one they all await. Shoghi Effendi has given this thought;

"To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha." Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103

This is not my opinion - This is what I believe, it is all written and I just share

Regards Tony

 

[Srivijaya]

Yes all Gods Faiths await the time when the Most Great Peace is promised. Baha'u'llah is the one they all await. Shoghi Effendi has given this thought;

"To Israel He was neither more nor less than the incarnation of the “Everlasting Father,” the “Lord of Hosts” come down “with ten thousands of saints”; to Christendom Christ returned “in the glory of the Father,” to Shí’ah Islám the return of the Imám Husayn; to Sunní Islám the descent of the “Spirit of God” (Jesus Christ); to the Zoroastrians the promised Sháh-Bahrám; to the Hindus the reincarnation of Krishna; to the Buddhists the fifth Buddha." Bahá'í Reference Library - God Passes By, Pages 89-103

This is not my opinion - This is what I believe, it is all written and I just share

Regards Tony

I read his Seven Valleys and Four Valleys many years ago and have nothing but respect for him, he was truly a saint, no doubt about it. He reminds me of Ramana Maharshi in this respect. Both of these men brought valuable teachings into the world but it's up to the capacity of the individual to comprehend their teachings. Most will fall short and only get as far as worshiping, rather than internalising.

 

[Grandliseur]

This thread is simple. This is about the promise of Christ Return.

From a Baha'i point of view this event has happened and was Fulfilled in the Messages of the Bab ("Gate") and Baha'u'llah ("Glory of God", or "Glory of the Lord").

As many await this event, both Christians and Muslims, how did we miss the greatest moment in History to date, would be the over-riding question to consider with this OP.

View attachment 20526

But lets go for a further three options;

What should have we looked for?
What are you still waiting for?
Why are you sitting with popcorn?

Looking for specifically:

The thing that causes desolation to position itself on the city of seven hills.
Followed by, the Great Tribulation,
Followed by the sign of Christ in heaven, the darkening of the sun and moon in some fashion (volcanic ash, or unknown reason, not eclipse) for enough time to be known globally,
Followed by the angels gathering the saints, and finally Armageddon, the destruction of present day governments.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I read his Seven Valleys and Four Valleys many years ago and have nothing but respect for him, he was truly a saint, no doubt about it. He reminds me of Ramana Maharshi in this respect. Both of these men brought valuable teachings into the world but it's up to the capacity of the individual to comprehend their teachings. Most will fall short and only get as far as worshiping, rather than internalising.

Thank you and Good on you they are a challenging work to read. They were written for questions asked by followers of the Sufi Order.

I agree that each of us have our capacity to understand all that is our Spirituality. We are very influenced by Nature and Nurture. To me the greatest spiritual teachers show us we have to find new frames of references in our understandings.

When I read them I see that we walk in and out of these Valleys throughout our life, we can never be static always moving up the mountain or into a valley. The aim would be to finish on a mountain.

These "Two works written in Baghdad after Bahá’u’lláh returned from Kurdistan in 1856. The Seven Valleys was revealed in reply to a letter from Shaykh Muhiyi’d-Din, the religious judge of Khaniqin, who was a Sufi. The Four Valleys was addressed to Shaykh ‘Abdu’r-Rahman, leader of the Qadiriyyih Sufi order, with whom Bahá’u’lláh had been in contact in Sulaymaniyyih."

The Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys | Bahá’í Reference Library

Hope you are well, regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Looking for specifically:

The thing that causes desolation to position itself on the city of seven hills.
Followed by, the Great Tribulation,
Followed by the sign of Christ in heaven, the darkening of the sun and moon in some fashion (volcanic ash, or unknown reason, not eclipse) for enough time to be known globally,
Followed by the angels gathering the saints, and finally Armageddon, the destruction of present day governments.​

Have you considered Spiritual aspects to these events?

I ask, because if you were to look at the Torah using just material interpretation for Christs first coming as did the Jews, then as a Jew, you would also be compelled to reject Christ. There is very little literal fulfillment for Christs past appearances.

Thank you for the input, I hope you do not mind alternate opinion. Regards Tony

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The dead do not return.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The dead do not return.

Agreed 100%

The Bible does say that we can be Born Again. Thus it could be considered this means to understand that we are a Spiritual Beings in the Matrix of the Spiritual World where the First Death is but a Birth.

Regards Tony

 

[wizanda]

Do you expect them to be all Material happenings, or do you think there could also be a spiritual aspect to them as well?

The books are not talking metaphorically about these events; these are physical things that will take place...There is a spiritual aspect to everything that happens, especially with a change of reality.

What do you see this age will include?

In this Age only the Godly shall remain in reality; all demons shall be removed... There shall no longer be death, everyone will live in peace, and nothing will kill anymore.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The books are not talking metaphorically about these events, these are physical things that will take place...There is a spiritual aspect to everything that happens, especially with a change of reality.

We would agree with the aspect of your statement that says; "these are physical things that will take place...There is a spiritual aspect to everything that happens".

There is a tradition of Seventy and One meanings; We speak one word, and by it we intend one and seventy meanings; each one of these meanings we can explain. (Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Iqan, p. 255)

We see this idea is well entrenched in Spiritual Thought;

Shiv'im Panim laTorah: “The Torah has 70 faces.” This phrase is sometimes used to indicate different “levels” of interpretation of the Torah. “There are seventy faces to the Torah: Turn it around and around, for everything is in it” (Bamidbar Rabba 13:15).

In this Age only the Godly shall remain in reality; all demons shall be removed... There shall no longer be death, everyone will live in peace, and nothing will kill anymore.

In my opinion.

I like that opinion, may it happen tomorrow

Baha'is do practice living in peace and kill not more. Gods plan a work in progress, that is In my Opinion

Regards Tony

 

[wizanda]

Baha'is do practice living in peace and kill not more. Gods plan a work in progress

It would be nice if it was a work in progress, and appreciate what Baha'i brings to the table in terms of creating Oneness between religions, and creating righteousness in the world...

Yet for every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction; so do you recognize that Baha'i has also detrimented the process?

Like Yeshua said here is near Hell; Isaiah and the prophets set a snare to catch out the demons down here...

Chapter 16 of Bhagavad Gita says the Asura (demons) are sent back to this realm, and the demons are to be removed at the end of this age by the rider on the white horse (Kali), as we find in Revelation the same.

In Zoroastrianism, and many other cultures there is a battle between light and dark taking place, with us in the middle of it.

So what does Baha'i explain about us being near Hell, and that there are lots of demons here; does it mention the Snare or Curse upon the world to remove them?

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So what does Baha'i explain about us being near Hell, and that there are lots of demons here; does it mention the Snare or Curse upon the world to remove them?

There is a lot written on this. I will just give my idea on this for now. A new Revelation makes all things New and sets the slate clean so we are then all faced with the decision to accept or not to. This is said to be Judgement Day, to which all humanity is born into. Each age of a Message, prior to the New Message remains our Judgement Day.

Heaven an Hell are within us, our choices. Heaven is Nearness to God and hell is remoteness from God.

Each Message releases the opposing forces. The Pure Truth shown in the Messenger and the Pure Evil of Rejection, shown by the ones that persecute the Messenger. It is well recorded in History this is How the Messages of God are born. It is a challenge for us to consider that Gods Faiths grow all the more faster, the more rejection they face.

Of course Baha'u'llah explains all this in great detail. After all Christ is to guide us unto all Truth.

Regards Tony

 

[loverofhumanity]

The dead do not return.

By return us meant like spring returns each year. It is not the same exact flowers that return but the qualities.

So it is with the return of Christ.

 

[Duke_Leto]

I don't believe in Jesus, so I'm not sure if my perspective is relevant. However, to accept that Jesus did return, I would probably have to see one of these conditions:

1. A man generally fulfilling the conditions to be considered a Jewish Messiah declare that he's the same Jesus as the one Christians worship. I'd accept this since the conditions to be considered a Jewish Messiah are fairly stringent.

2. A majority of the admittedly sparse prophecies made in the Gospels to occur, and a miraculous figure claiming to be Jesus to appear.

3. The prophecies of Revelation to occur.

Since the only information about Jesus is contained within the Christian Bible, I don't think it's possible for someone who doesn't fulfill one of these conditions to be considered the same Jesus as the one portrayed in the Bible.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I don't believe in Jesus, so I'm not sure if my perspective is relevant. However, to accept that Jesus did return, I would probably have to see one of these conditions:

1. A man generally fulfilling the conditions to be considered a Jewish Messiah declare that he's the same Jesus as the one Christians worship. I'd accept this since the conditions to be considered a Jewish Messiah are fairly stringent.

2. A majority of the admittedly sparse prophecies made in the Gospels to occur, and a miraculous figure claiming to be Jesus to appear.

3. The prophecies of Revelation to occur.

Since the only information about Jesus is contained within the Christian Bible, I don't think it's possible for someone who doesn't fulfill one of these conditions to be considered the same Jesus as the one portrayed in the Bible.

As no one knows what Jesus looked like physically wouldn’t His Return be a Person with identical spiritual qualities and attributes?

So shouldn’t we look at the life and teachings of anyone claiming to be the Messiah? Surely that would be a proof.

Christ Himself said that a good tree doesn’t bear bad fruit or a bad tree bear good fruit so we would know if a Messiah is true or false by His life and Teachings.

What do you think? We think Baha’u’llah fits the description perfectly but it’s for others to investigate whether after investigation they think He does or doesn’t.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't believe in Jesus, so I'm not sure if my perspective is relevant. However, to accept that Jesus did return, I would probably have to see one of these conditions:

1. A man generally fulfilling the conditions to be considered a Jewish Messiah declare that he's the same Jesus as the one Christians worship. I'd accept this since the conditions to be considered a Jewish Messiah are fairly stringent.

2. A majority of the admittedly sparse prophecies made in the Gospels to occur, and a miraculous figure claiming to be Jesus to appear.

3. The prophecies of Revelation to occur.

Since the only information about Jesus is contained within the Christian Bible, I don't think it's possible for someone who doesn't fulfill one of these conditions to be considered the same Jesus as the one portrayed in the Bible.

Baha'u'llah has offered all this to Christianity, in fact offered it to all religions. That they look at what was foretold and then consider the Message of Baha'u'llah.

We are asked to do this as an individual and with Justice. The challenge then for us is if we choose to take on the Challenge given by Baha'u'llah, to prove this either way unto our own selves.

Regards Tony

 

[wizanda]

There is a lot written on this.

Love how Baha'i write in poetic spiritual nuances without actually answering the question...

The Snare and Curse are specific entities within Hebraic texts, started by Moses, then continued by the prophets...

This is something i've known about since birth, and could have explained as a child, yet without textual evidence at that time...

So the same question applies to Baha'i if it is true, I'm needing exact references of where it explains these things (Snare & Curse), else so far it isn't qualifying as from the Divine...

Especially on the grounds Baha'i is telling us we're here to settle down near Hell (Maya).

In my opinion.

 

[wizanda]

So shouldn’t we look at the life and teachings of anyone claiming to be the Messiah? Surely that would be a proof.

Christ Himself said that a good tree doesn’t bear bad fruit or a bad tree bear good fruit so we would know if a Messiah is true or false by His life and Teachings.

What do you think? We think Baha’u’llah fits the description perfectly but it’s for others to investigate whether after investigation they think He does or doesn’t.

Yeshua challenged the religious structure, stating that it was wrong, and that fake prophets are the ones who try to agree with everyone (Luke 6:26).

So by your reckoning we should be looking for someone challenging religious structures, who isn't accepted by many.

Basically someone who is going to say what we don't want to hear; not someone who confirms what we've always liked to hear.

In my opinion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is something i've known about since birth, and could have explained as a child, yet without textual evidence at that time...

As this is not my upbringing, I had very basic Christain Sunday School, while still very young, please give me your explanation.

As a note until then, Snare and Curse appear in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, but I would like to put it into context by knowing what you are thinking.

Example of not knowing. This is a passage by Baha'u'llah when He withdrew for 2 years;

"..We communed with Our spirit, oblivious of the world and all that is therein. We knew not, however, that the mesh of divine destiny exceedeth the vastest of mortal conceptions, and the dart of His decree transcendeth the boldest of human designs. None can escape the snares He setteth, and no soul can find release except through submission to His will."

Regards Tony