comprehend said:
I am not so sure what my opinion is yet, I am still trying to think this out and I really want to see what "mainstream" christians have to say about it.
I understand the idea of the visible and invisible church. hristians have beliefs that are so different that they are incompatable with eachother yet continue to call themselves a single church. I am wondering how this can be. maybe something I need to understand first is why do christians consider themselves to all belong to the same (invisible) church when their beliefs are so completely different, and I am not talking about little differences.
when you say that the "church resides in the heart of every true believer" I would ask how it can be that they believe such radically different things and it remain one church?
Hmm. There was an interesting poll on the board the other day regarding objectivity (but what really came out were people's opinions about the most 'persuasuve' experiences leading to faith: corporal, personal, psychological, supernatural. Something along those lines). Some agreed the supernatural experience to be the most persuasive. Anyway what I believe is that
A. All true believers in Christ are converts, many through supernatural experience
B. All true believers in Christ have a personal relationship with Him
A missionary told me this story. It was his last day in the field, after many years working and living in Papua New Guinea. A man in a loincloth carrying a spear came walking out of the jungle causing a stir in the tiny village; his tribe was one of the remotest. Having little contact with other tribes an interpreter was needed to understand his dialect but he was very animated. He insisted he was looking for the "man with hair on his face" and must see him immediately. The missionary was the only one with a beard so the people brought him over. He said "last night a man in white robes with flames for eyes awoke me and I said Master, what is your name - he told me many things about myself. He told me to come here and find the man with hair on his face, who would tell me the story of Jesus. Who is this Jesus? I want to know everything". And he broke down sobbing while the missionary told him the story of his savior.
Now, it's my sincere belief the man was a believer before he ever found the missionary. His heart burned to know more about him, but he had met him face to face and would go to the ends of the earth to see him again and experience his irresistible, powerful, unconditional love. It's also my story: belief in Jesus preceded my knowing who he was. I knew that someone had saved me, but I didn't know who it was. If I, or the tribal guy, had died on the journey to find out his name, we would have died believers nonetheless. I believe our story has been repeated throughout history. I believe there are many who belong to his flock this moment who may not even know his name.
I also believe that if Jesus walked into a mega church this Sunday in person, many would bow down and worship him but some would run away or call the police or want to kill him. That would be the real chaff-separator I think.
:angel2:
Along those same lines, I think true believers may be just as capable of engaging in heated doctrinal arguments as any 'whited-sepulchre' Pharisee out there, while holding to one core belief: faith and trust in Christ.
This is why I wish there was a Church of Mere Christianity. We love him, we worship him, we trust him, we want to be like him... we are his sheep and we know his voice.
Most of the church websites I visit have something like this in their We Believe pages:
I believe in God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. (or not)
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy *catholic (or Christian) church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and life everlasting.
Amen.
or this:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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(of course those are the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, and even the Apostles Creed in its antiquity and simplicity has its detractors but... most of us don't have a problem with it as a public declaration of faith)
