Christian Cannot Be True (Not if it believes in the Old Testament)

[TheKnight]

Throughout this post I will show differences between Christianity and Judaism, and then respond to some claims that Christians make that simply cannot be true (if they also believe in the Bible.

Difference #1
In Judaism, the Bible is something that should be followed, not felt, and so traditionally Observant Jews and Noahides know a lot more about the Tanakh (Old Testament) than Christians. In fact, usually the only Christians who actually know the OT are those who are higher up in scholarship. Your average Christian doesn't know much about the OT or the NT for that matter.

Difference #2
Judaism believes that he Bible should be followed and applied in each person's life. Christians generally believe that they can feel it in their hearts and that's good enough. Most common-man Christians I've talked to say that "Jesus died for my sins, and I believe that, so I'm covered" or some variation of that statement. Other ones do feel guilty when I question them about their lack of knowledge, but the guilt doesn't last long because they'll not go and study, but will stay where they are.

Difference #3
The texts that both Judaism and Christianity use are different. For one, Christians use the Tanakh but deny the Mesorah (ie the Oral Tradition). Whereas, Judaism teaches that the Mesorah is just as divine as the Tanakh, and that the New Testament is false. This (because Christians usually deny the truth of the first two differences) is quite possibly the biggest difference. Of course, Christians always ignore the fact that the Torah CANNOT be followed without the Mesorah. Of course, this works to their advantage because Paul (in his writings) talks about how no one can follow the law and that the purpose of it is to show us that we can't keep it. But text is the biggest issue. Christians (particularly protestants who know about the Catholic acts of the past) are unwilling to accept the teachings of any official source or organizational structure. They believe in Sola Scriptura whereas Judaism takes in all that God has delivered to the world about the Torah.

Difference #4
The next difference is really obvious (to the learnéd person), but is perhaps the most discreet and unknown. Christianity and Judaism disagree about who the son of God is. Christianity teaches that it is Jesus, even Jesus says that he is God's son. And Matthew quotes OT scriptures to validate himself. However, in Exodus 4:22, God says that Israel is his first-born son. Now, this is a hard concept for many to understand the importance of. If the purpose of God's son is to be a light unto the nations as Isaiah says, then who God's son is would be very important. God's son, is the nation of Israel to the Observant Jew or Noahide and to the Christian, God's son is Jesus.

Difference #5
Sin and Evil. Now, in this way Judaism and Christianity are actually quite the same, and yet MUCH different. They are similar in that Judaism and Christianity both accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve. Now, in Christianity, sin was not intended to enter the world. It was the result of an evil force (Satan) ruining what God had created by tempting Eve. I understand that not ALL of Christianity believes this, however, I am going simply based on my former Christian understand of the New Testament. In Judaism, sin was the intent. God intended that we should sin. How do we know? Because nothing happens unless God intends it to. Now, in Judaism the purpose of OUR creation is to create a connection to God, to change darkness into light, to make a home for God amongst the physical and amongst that which is evil. We were created to turn evil to good, darkness to light, hunger to plenty. We were created to follow the Torah and through the Torah make things below as they are above. Christianity (parts of it anyways) rejects this idea. Also, in Judaism, there is no opposite force of God. God makes evil, everything that Satan does is an order by God. Satan is a loyal angel and his job is to try and keep us off track through our evil inclination.

Difference #6
The nature of humanity. Christianity believes that humans are inherently bad, and that had Jesus not died we'd all be going to hell. This view is NOT held in Judaism. In fact, Judaism teaches that humanity is inherently good. That people should be valued as people despite their bad acts. That a person, though he may be shrouded in darkness, has good inside of them. Everyone has a redeeming quality which would allow them to do tremendous good. God created man to be ultimately good, and that is what he is.

Difference #7
Repentance. Christianity is based on the notion that blood is necessary for repentance. That God requires blood (Hebrews 9:22). That Jesus is the perfect and Eternal sacrifice that stands as a sacrifice so that we no longer need to bring them. Despite what Christianity believes, the Torah does not require blood for complete repentance. In Judaism there are three ways to repent. There is sacrifice (the least effective), there is charity (the next to least effective), and repentance (the most effective). In Christianity, repentance is accepting that Jesus died for your sins and asking for forgiveness. In Judaism, asking for forgiveness is required, but in addition to that you must actually resolve to never do the sin again. You must be constantly trying to avoid that sin (if it is an addiction) and must be doing everything you can to avoid it.

Difference #8
Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, Judaism teaches that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements required for a claim to Messiahship

Difference #9
Afterlife. In Judaism everyone goes to the same place. In Christianity, there's a heaven and a hell.

Difference #10
The trinity. In Judaism God is a unity that is not made up of different parts. In Christianity God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Claims:

1.Christianity makes the claim that Jesus was God (Philippians 2:5-6)

However, the New Testament also teaches that Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5).

The Jewish scriptures (which Christianity claims to have derived its truth from) state clearly that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19).

Also, Christians will point to the miracles that Jesus performed as evidence of his godship. However, Jesus was not the only person in the NT to perform miracles. In fact, Jesus never did anything that was exclusively God-like that no one else in the NT did. All of the disciples and apostles did what Jesus did, yet none of them are considered God.

2. Christianity claims that Jesus was the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures and they will throw out a plethora of random verses to try and prove this point.

A lot of their claims are disputed here.

Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures, is the fact that literally nothing changed after Jesus came. Nothing spectacular occurred, nothing got better. In fact, the world got worse a the newly made religion went out and caused all sorts of damage.

3. Christianity claims that a blood sacrifice is necessary for the expiation of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)

However, no where in the Jewish scriptures is that stated. In fact, the forgiveness of sins is more often accomplished through repentance (Ezekial 18 & 33) and through charity (Daniel 4:27).

4. Christianity claims that the law is old and obsolete. (Romans 10:4 & Hebrews 8:13)

However, God states that the laws should be followed forever (Deuteronomy 4:40 & Psalm 119:152).

Based on the above, it is logical to assume that Christianity cannot be true and the Jewish scriptures be true at the same time.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Interesting. thanks for the info.

 

[Caladan]

Welcome to the forums TheKnight.

Personally I would focus more on discussing points such as 'difference #5' and less on 'difference #1'. or at least go into it from a different angle.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Very interesting. It appears you have given this topic a lot of thought. While I won't agree with everything you have said, I think you bring up a lot of good points. I think we could have an interesting discussion about some of these points. After all, we come to different conclusions, based on the same data. I believe that Christianity is true, and that Jewish scripture is as well.

 

[TheKnight]

Very interesting. It appears you have given this topic a lot of thought. While I won't agree with everything you have said, I think you bring up a lot of good points. I think we could have an interesting discussion about some of these points. After all, we come to different conclusions, based on the same data. I believe that Christianity is true, and that Jewish scripture is as well.

How is it that you reconcile these differences?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

How is it that you reconcile these differences?

Let me summarize my position. I don't really have the time to go into all of the points you've brought up right now. But feel free to pick a topic and we can discuss it further.

Basically, Judaism was revealed to Moses by God. It was his word to us, the people of the earth. The children of Israel were not exactly faithful. The whole law of Moses was a preparatory law. It was to lead to a higher law. Jesus was sent to fulfill the law, but most of the Jews missed the mark. So there was a schism. The Christians and the Jews. As time passed, these two religions drifted further and further apart. Ordinances were changed and doctrines lost. Now Judaism and Christianity are very different from each other. However, they still share fundamental truths. Both have a portion. If we were to return the the pure and original form of both, they would match perfectly. In fact, they would be the same thing.

So go ahead, start shooting the bullets

 

[TheKnight]

Let me summarize my position. I don't really have the time to go into all of the points you've brought up right now. But feel free to pick a topic and we can discuss it further.

Basically, Judaism was revealed to Moses by God. It was his word to us, the people of the earth. The children of Israel were not exactly faithful. The whole law of Moses was a preparatory law. It was to lead to a higher law. Jesus was sent to fulfill the law, but most of the Jews missed the mark. So there was a schism. The Christians and the Jews. As time passed, these two religions drifted further and further apart. Ordinances were changed and doctrines lost. Now Judaism and Christianity are very different from each other. However, they still share fundamental truths. Both have a portion. If we were to return the the pure and original form of both, they would match perfectly. In fact, they would be the same thing.

So go ahead, start shooting the bullets

Do you have proof, from the Jewish scriptures, that the Law of Moses is a preparatory law?

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Do you have proof, from the Jewish scriptures, that the Law of Moses is a preparatory law?

No, I don't. I can look though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Difference #1
In Judaism, the Bible is something that should be followed, not felt, and so traditionally Observant Jews and Noahides know a lot more about the Tanakh (Old Testament) than Christians.

It's rather hard to take serious any post that begins with such silliness ...

• To "follow the Bible" is sufficiently vague as to be near meaningless.
• Whether or not one "follows the Bible" is a wholly unreliable determinant of ones knowledge of the Bible.
• Whether or not some (or even most) members of some group "know a lot about the Tanakh" says absolutely nothing about whether the theology of that group is 'True.'

But it's nice that you read the Tanakh.

 

[sojourner]

Throughout this post I will show differences between Christianity and Judaism, and then respond to some claims that Christians make that simply cannot be true (if they also believe in the Bible.

Difference #1
In Judaism, the Bible is something that should be followed, not felt, and so traditionally Observant Jews and Noahides know a lot more about the Tanakh (Old Testament) than Christians. In fact, usually the only Christians who actually know the OT are those who are higher up in scholarship. Your average Christian doesn't know much about the OT or the NT for that matter.

Difference #2
Judaism believes that he Bible should be followed and applied in each person's life. Christians generally believe that they can feel it in their hearts and that's good enough. Most common-man Christians I've talked to say that "Jesus died for my sins, and I believe that, so I'm covered" or some variation of that statement. Other ones do feel guilty when I question them about their lack of knowledge, but the guilt doesn't last long because they'll not go and study, but will stay where they are.

Difference #3
The texts that both Judaism and Christianity use are different. For one, Christians use the Tanakh but deny the Mesorah (ie the Oral Tradition). Whereas, Judaism teaches that the Mesorah is just as divine as the Tanakh, and that the New Testament is false. This (because Christians usually deny the truth of the first two differences) is quite possibly the biggest difference. Of course, Christians always ignore the fact that the Torah CANNOT be followed without the Mesorah. Of course, this works to their advantage because Paul (in his writings) talks about how no one can follow the law and that the purpose of it is to show us that we can't keep it. But text is the biggest issue. Christians (particularly protestants who know about the Catholic acts of the past) are unwilling to accept the teachings of any official source or organizational structure. They believe in Sola Scriptura whereas Judaism takes in all that God has delivered to the world about the Torah.

Difference #4
The next difference is really obvious (to the learnéd person), but is perhaps the most discreet and unknown. Christianity and Judaism disagree about who the son of God is. Christianity teaches that it is Jesus, even Jesus says that he is God's son. And Matthew quotes OT scriptures to validate himself. However, in Exodus 4:22, God says that Israel is his first-born son. Now, this is a hard concept for many to understand the importance of. If the purpose of God's son is to be a light unto the nations as Isaiah says, then who God's son is would be very important. God's son, is the nation of Israel to the Observant Jew or Noahide and to the Christian, God's son is Jesus.

Difference #5
Sin and Evil. Now, in this way Judaism and Christianity are actually quite the same, and yet MUCH different. They are similar in that Judaism and Christianity both accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve. Now, in Christianity, sin was not intended to enter the world. It was the result of an evil force (Satan) ruining what God had created by tempting Eve. I understand that not ALL of Christianity believes this, however, I am going simply based on my former Christian understand of the New Testament. In Judaism, sin was the intent. God intended that we should sin. How do we know? Because nothing happens unless God intends it to. Now, in Judaism the purpose of OUR creation is to create a connection to God, to change darkness into light, to make a home for God amongst the physical and amongst that which is evil. We were created to turn evil to good, darkness to light, hunger to plenty. We were created to follow the Torah and through the Torah make things below as they are above. Christianity (parts of it anyways) rejects this idea. Also, in Judaism, there is no opposite force of God. God makes evil, everything that Satan does is an order by God. Satan is a loyal angel and his job is to try and keep us off track through our evil inclination.

Difference #6
The nature of humanity. Christianity believes that humans are inherently bad, and that had Jesus not died we'd all be going to hell. This view is NOT held in Judaism. In fact, Judaism teaches that humanity is inherently good. That people should be valued as people despite their bad acts. That a person, though he may be shrouded in darkness, has good inside of them. Everyone has a redeeming quality which would allow them to do tremendous good. God created man to be ultimately good, and that is what he is.

Difference #7
Repentance. Christianity is based on the notion that blood is necessary for repentance. That God requires blood (Hebrews 9:22). That Jesus is the perfect and Eternal sacrifice that stands as a sacrifice so that we no longer need to bring them. Despite what Christianity believes, the Torah does not require blood for complete repentance. In Judaism there are three ways to repent. There is sacrifice (the least effective), there is charity (the next to least effective), and repentance (the most effective). In Christianity, repentance is accepting that Jesus died for your sins and asking for forgiveness. In Judaism, asking for forgiveness is required, but in addition to that you must actually resolve to never do the sin again. You must be constantly trying to avoid that sin (if it is an addiction) and must be doing everything you can to avoid it.

Difference #8
Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, Judaism teaches that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements required for a claim to Messiahship

Difference #9
Afterlife. In Judaism everyone goes to the same place. In Christianity, there's a heaven and a hell.

Difference #10
The trinity. In Judaism God is a unity that is not made up of different parts. In Christianity God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Claims:

1.Christianity makes the claim that Jesus was God (Philippians 2:5-6)

However, the New Testament also teaches that Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5).

The Jewish scriptures (which Christianity claims to have derived its truth from) state clearly that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19).

Also, Christians will point to the miracles that Jesus performed as evidence of his godship. However, Jesus was not the only person in the NT to perform miracles. In fact, Jesus never did anything that was exclusively God-like that no one else in the NT did. All of the disciples and apostles did what Jesus did, yet none of them are considered God.

2. Christianity claims that Jesus was the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures and they will throw out a plethora of random verses to try and prove this point.

A lot of their claims are disputed here.

Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures, is the fact that literally nothing changed after Jesus came. Nothing spectacular occurred, nothing got better. In fact, the world got worse a the newly made religion went out and caused all sorts of damage.

3. Christianity claims that a blood sacrifice is necessary for the expiation of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)

However, no where in the Jewish scriptures is that stated. In fact, the forgiveness of sins is more often accomplished through repentance (Ezekial 18 & 33) and through charity (Daniel 4:27).

4. Christianity claims that the law is old and obsolete. (Romans 10:4 & Hebrews 8:13)

However, God states that the laws should be followed forever (Deuteronomy 4:40 & Psalm 119:152).

Based on the above, it is logical to assume that Christianity cannot be true and the Jewish scriptures be true at the same time.

With regard to your "differences," (with the exception of 4, 8, and 10) I'm a closet Jew!

With regard to your "claims:"
2) Christians who know do not superimpose Jesus on OT prophecies.
3) Not all Christians believe this. In fact, there are a large number who do not.
4) Not all Christians believe this, either. We believe that the Law is fulfilled, but not "old" or "obsolete."

The world's a whole lot grayer than the black-and-white one you paint here.
Thank God.

 

[TheKnight]

It's rather hard to take serious any post that begins with such silliness ...

• To "follow the Bible" is sufficiently vague as to be near meaningless.
• Whether or not one "follows the Bible" is a wholly unreliable determinant of ones knowledge of the Bible.
• Whether or not some (or even most) members of some group "know a lot about the Tanakh" says absolutely nothing about whether the theology of that group is 'True.'

But it's nice that you read the Tanakh.

I know...I wrote it quite a while ago...I'll have to re-write it again eventually.

With regard to your "differences," (with the exception of 4, 8, and 10) I'm a closet Jew!

With regard to your "claims:"
2) Christians who know do not superimpose Jesus on OT prophecies.
3) Not all Christians believe this. In fact, there are a large number who do not.
4) Not all Christians believe this, either. We believe that the Law is fulfilled, but not "old" or "obsolete."

The world's a whole lot grayer than the black-and-white one you paint here.
Thank God.

I base the differences on what the New Testament says. I do realize that there Christians who don't believe all of the things that I listed, however I listed those things because they are concepts that are clearly stated in the New Testament.

 

[sojourner]

I base the differences on what the New Testament says. I do realize that there Christians who don't believe all of the things that I listed, however I listed those things because they are concepts that are clearly stated in the New Testament.

Difference #1
In Judaism, the Bible is something that should be followed, not felt, and so traditionally Observant Jews and Noahides know a lot more about the Tanakh (Old Testament) than Christians. In fact, usually the only Christians who actually know the OT are those who are higher up in scholarship. Your average Christian doesn't know much about the OT or the NT for that matter.

Difference #2
Judaism believes that he Bible should be followed and applied in each person's life. Christians generally believe that they can feel it in their hearts and that's good enough. Most common-man Christians I've talked to say that "Jesus died for my sins, and I believe that, so I'm covered" or some variation of that statement. Other ones do feel guilty when I question them about their lack of knowledge, but the guilt doesn't last long because they'll not go and study, but will stay where they are.

Difference #3
The texts that both Judaism and Christianity use are different. For one, Christians use the Tanakh but deny the Mesorah (ie the Oral Tradition). Whereas, Judaism teaches that the Mesorah is just as divine as the Tanakh, and that the New Testament is false. This (because Christians usually deny the truth of the first two differences) is quite possibly the biggest difference. Of course, Christians always ignore the fact that the Torah CANNOT be followed without the Mesorah. Of course, this works to their advantage because Paul (in his writings) talks about how no one can follow the law and that the purpose of it is to show us that we can't keep it. But text is the biggest issue. Christians (particularly protestants who know about the Catholic acts of the past) are unwilling to accept the teachings of any official source or organizational structure. They believe in Sola Scriptura whereas Judaism takes in all that God has delivered to the world about the Torah.

Difference #4
The next difference is really obvious (to the learnéd person), but is perhaps the most discreet and unknown. Christianity and Judaism disagree about who the son of God is. Christianity teaches that it is Jesus, even Jesus says that he is God's son. And Matthew quotes OT scriptures to validate himself. However, in Exodus 4:22, God says that Israel is his first-born son. Now, this is a hard concept for many to understand the importance of. If the purpose of God's son is to be a light unto the nations as Isaiah says, then who God's son is would be very important. God's son, is the nation of Israel to the Observant Jew or Noahide and to the Christian, God's son is Jesus.

Difference #5
Sin and Evil. Now, in this way Judaism and Christianity are actually quite the same, and yet MUCH different. They are similar in that Judaism and Christianity both accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve. Now, in Christianity, sin was not intended to enter the world. It was the result of an evil force (Satan) ruining what God had created by tempting Eve. I understand that not ALL of Christianity believes this, however, I am going simply based on my former Christian understand of the New Testament. In Judaism, sin was the intent. God intended that we should sin. How do we know? Because nothing happens unless God intends it to. Now, in Judaism the purpose of OUR creation is to create a connection to God, to change darkness into light, to make a home for God amongst the physical and amongst that which is evil. We were created to turn evil to good, darkness to light, hunger to plenty. We were created to follow the Torah and through the Torah make things below as they are above. Christianity (parts of it anyways) rejects this idea. Also, in Judaism, there is no opposite force of God. God makes evil, everything that Satan does is an order by God. Satan is a loyal angel and his job is to try and keep us off track through our evil inclination.

Difference #6
The nature of humanity. Christianity believes that humans are inherently bad, and that had Jesus not died we'd all be going to hell. This view is NOT held in Judaism. In fact, Judaism teaches that humanity is inherently good. That people should be valued as people despite their bad acts. That a person, though he may be shrouded in darkness, has good inside of them. Everyone has a redeeming quality which would allow them to do tremendous good. God created man to be ultimately good, and that is what he is.

Difference #7
Repentance. Christianity is based on the notion that blood is necessary for repentance. That God requires blood (Hebrews 9:22). That Jesus is the perfect and Eternal sacrifice that stands as a sacrifice so that we no longer need to bring them. Despite what Christianity believes, the Torah does not require blood for complete repentance. In Judaism there are three ways to repent. There is sacrifice (the least effective), there is charity (the next to least effective), and repentance (the most effective). In Christianity, repentance is accepting that Jesus died for your sins and asking for forgiveness. In Judaism, asking for forgiveness is required, but in addition to that you must actually resolve to never do the sin again. You must be constantly trying to avoid that sin (if it is an addiction) and must be doing everything you can to avoid it.

Difference #8
Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, Judaism teaches that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements required for a claim to Messiahship

Difference #9
Afterlife. In Judaism everyone goes to the same place. In Christianity, there's a heaven and a hell.

Difference #10
The trinity. In Judaism God is a unity that is not made up of different parts. In Christianity God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Hmmn.
1 & 2) Not sure where the NT claims clearly that we're not to learn, mark, read, know, and follow scripture.
3) Since both OT and NT were originally oral tradition, and transmitted thus for at least a few years, I'm not sure where the NT says clearly that we're not to pay attention to commentary and Tradition.
4) The claim is made, but with the understanding that the OT does portray Israel as God's offspring. Jesus is presented as the culmination (fulfillment) of Israel (for right or wrong).
5) The NT makes no such "clear" or explicit claim about sin.
6) Not sure that the NT makes such a clear and explicit claim that humanity is created inherently evil.
7) Xy is not based on that notion. Some Xians do base their salvation on that notion, but that notion is not at all clear or explicit in the NT. It can certainly be conjured up from implied statements, but that's another matter.

 

[TheKnight]

Hmmn.
1 & 2) Not sure where the NT claims clearly that we're not to learn, mark, read, know, and follow scripture.

I realize that difference is one that changes depending on which Christian group.

3) Since both OT and NT were originally oral tradition, and transmitted thus for at least a few years, I'm not sure where the NT says clearly that we're not to pay attention to commentary and Tradition.

Christianity, as a whole, disregards the Talmudic oral tradition.

4) The claim is made, but with the understanding that the OT does portray Israel as God's offspring. Jesus is presented as the culmination (fulfillment) of Israel (for right or wrong).

Can you explain this? I'm not sure what you're trying to say when you say that Jesus is presented as the culmination of Israel.

5) The NT makes no such "clear" or explicit claim about sin.

True. That I know of, the NT does not state that God did not intend for sin to exist. However, it is a commonly held Christian doctrine that sin was not God's intention.

6) Not sure that the NT makes such a clear and explicit claim that humanity is created inherently evil.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...."~Romans 3:23
"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."~Romans 3:10-11

7) Xy is not based on that notion. Some Xians do base their salvation on that notion, but that notion is not at all clear or explicit in the NT. It can certainly be conjured up from implied statements, but that's another matter.

"Under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins"~Hebrews 9:22

I recognize that the first 10 differences may be specific to a particular Christian group. However, the last four are things found within the writings of the New Testament.

 

[sojourner]

Christianity, as a whole, disregards the Talmudic oral tradition.

But we do have our own. And scholastic endeavors do make use of the Talmud.

Can you explain this? I'm not sure what you're trying to say when you say that Jesus is presented as the culmination of Israel.

Well, I'd say that the genaeologies of Matt. and Lk., in and of themselves bear this out. Further, if the Law encapsulates righteous Israel, and Jesus fulfills that Law, that's pretty self-explanatory, too. Matthew also does a real good job of identifying the Church as the "true Israel" in his gospel, being that those followers are portrayed as the ones who truly keep the prophets.

However, it is a commonly held Christian doctrine that sin was not God's intention.

But that's not what you said. You said the NT was clear about this.

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...."~Romans 3:23
"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."~Romans 3:10-11

Neither one is explicit that humanity was created evil and sinful. You're confusing Augustine with Paul.

"Under the Law almost everything is purified by means of blood, and without the shedding of blood there is neither release from sin and its guilt nor the remission of the due and merited punishment for sins"~Hebrews 9:22

Again, implied, but not explicit. While we may say that Jesus' sacrifice is "the perfect offering for our sins," many, many of us do not take it as far as saying that th blood offering is in any way necessary.

However, the last four are things found within the writings of the New Testament.

Which "last four things" are you referring to?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is a very silly thread, somewhat reminiscent of Arlanbb's petty picking at the Tanakh.

 

[sojourner]

This is a very silly thread, somewhat reminiscent of Arlanbb's petty picking at the Tanakh.

"On second thought, let's not go to Camelot. "Tis a silly place..."

 

[Dunemeister]

Difference #1

This represents a distortion of both Judaism and Christianity. It is regrettable that most Christians know little of the Tanakh. But this is also true of most Jews.

Difference #2

Another distortion. I'll grant you that things look different from an outside perspective, but the fact remains that "feeling" it's true and ignorance is a fault shared by all humanity. Christians have no corner on this.

Difference #3

Three issues. First, which Mesorah do you have in mind? Christianity emerged in the first century amid a plurality of Judaisms, each of which radically disagreed with the others about how to understand the Torah. That is, they functioned with different Mesorahs (sorry for not pluralizing that right!). Saduccees, multiple Pharisaic parties, Essenes, the Zealots, and the Christians all were involved in debate about oral tradition. The all saw themselves as completely Jewish.

Second, Paul did not say that the purpose of the law was to show that we couldn't keep it. He said that, because Jesus had fulfilled the law, the old markers of covenant faithfulness (circumcision, etc.) were redundant. For Paul, covenant faithfulness now meant faithfulness to Jesus the Messiah. The moral requirements of the law hadn't faded one bit. Protestant Christian theology in the context of 16th century internal debates has invoked such things as sola scriptura, but even among Protestants, that stance is both theoretically problematic and historically impractical (even sola scriptural Christians invoke some interpretive authority of one kind or another). It is not what "Christianity" is all about.

Third, authority. For Christians, all authority belongs to Jesus. So it's in light of Jesus and his apostles' teachings that we interpret Torah. As a result, the early Christians began their own Mesorah, just as the Essenes and the rabbis did. That's nothing against Christianity if it's nothing against the rabbis.

Difference #4

The phrase "son of God" means several different things in the sacred writings. It can refer to all Israel. It can also refer to the king of Israel (Psalms 2). It can mean "angel," whether faithful or fallen (Job 1). It can refer to tyrannical kings (Genesis 6). It has been used to refer to those who have been particularly faithful to God or to Torah during times of persecution. AND it can refer to the Messiah. So if Jesus is the Messiah, it's appropriate to call him "son of God."

Difference #5

Here I mostly agree. I'd quibble a bit about the role of Satan, but since what I have to say would be a matter of nuance, I'll simply let this one be.

Difference #6

Here again, you are accusing "Christianty" of believing what a small segment of Christianity believes. That said, I think your anthropology is correct.

Difference #7

I think you're conflating repentance and forgiveness. Christianity holds that being restored to covenant faithfulness (i.e. FORGIVENESS and RECONCILIATION) used to require a blood sacrifice. That's what the temple cult was all about. A person's repentance PLUS the sacrifice "covered" the sin and restored the sinner to full participation in the covenant community. On a Christian view, Jesus ended the sacrificial system by being the Lamb prefigured in the yearly and daily sacrifices.

Difference #8

Yes, this is the key issue. It cannot be won out by either side by hurling proof texts at the other. The Christian claim for the Messiahship of Jesus does not rest on this or that proof text but on what we claim as historical fact: Jesus, who claimed before a Jewish court that he was in fact "the Son of the Blessed" died on a Roman cross. That should have ended the matter, but it didn't. He rose from the dead. If that last claim is true, it vindicates the Christian claim.

Difference #9

This is anachronistic. Some forms of first century Judaism fervently believed in hell. That said, most Judaisms would have said (and Christianity has gotten away from this) that heaven is important, but it's not the end of the world. Most Judaisms have said that God will one day set all things to rights and restore creation to His original intent for justice, righteousness, beauty, shalom. This won't involve destroying the cosmos but rather re-ordering it.

Difference #10

Christianity is as fervently monotheistic as Judaism. But still, there's a significant difference here.

1. Christianity makes the claim that Jesus was God [but also] a man. [Yet the] Jewish scriptures ... state clearly that God is not a man.

Christian claims to Jesus' divinity do not hang on his ability to do miracles. They hinge on a few other, more tangential details. For instance, he claimed to have the ability to forgive sins in God's name (Mark 2), which would make him an alternative to the temple. Most scholars recognize that Jesus' act of defiance in the temple (John 2 and parallels) involves his claiming authority over the temple and announcing its end. He also claimed authority over the Torah (Matthew 5 - 7). He was not saying his interpretations were "better" than others. He was saying that his interpretations were authoritative, period. In other words, Jesus was claiming divine rights. That is, he was saying and doing things only God should be saying and doing. Thus the actual evidence of his divinity is, once again, his resurrection. If Jesus has been raised, then his claims and actions are vindicated. If not, not. It's really as simple as that.

2. Christianity claims that Jesus was the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures and they will throw out a plethora of random verses to try and prove this point.

As I've pointed out before, Jesus' claims to Messiahship don't hang on any particular text of OT scripture. The New Testament, in part, is a rethinking of the Torah in light of Jesus' resurrection, which was unexpected to say the least.

The claim that "nothing happened" is simply false. This would take too long to get into here, but the fact is that the church happened. The church is nothing less than Jew and Gentile being reconciled under God in Christ. It is "wild olive shoots" (Gentile Christians) being grafted onto the cultivated olive tree (National Israel). It is the harbinger of reconciliation for the nations. That's not to say that it hasn't been messy (one can point to umpteen religiously motivated atrocities with Christians the leading cheerleaders), but since as you've already pointed out, creation itself was "messy", so why shouldn't the working out of God's promise of re-creation be any less messy?

Basically, Christians split the Messiah's work into two phases. Now there is a time of opportunity for the world to repent and willingly submit to the Creator. Meantime, the church, in its notoriously muddled way, enacts signs of that final Day when God will set things right. One day, the Messiah will complete his work, and then we will see in much more dramatic fashion the signs of reconciliation hoped and longed for (the lion and the lamb dwelling together, so to speak, and so on).

Again, this is a problematic and controversial claim. Yet once more the basis for believing it isn't a track record of success in the endeavour or specious punting to proof texts. Rather, it's that niggling resurrection once again. If Jesus was raised from the dead, he was and is the Lord of Lords.

3. Christianity claims that a blood sacrifice is necessary for the expiation of sins. However, no where in the Jewish scriptures is that stated. In fact, the forgiveness of sins is more often accomplished through repentance and through charity.

True, the Jewish scriptures don't spell out how the sacrificial system enacts forgiveness, but the sacrificial system was all about restoring the community to a right covenantal relationship with God. Ezekiel actually supports this view through his complaint about the shallowness of the faith of Israel during his ministry. He complained that Israel's sacrifices were all just empty show, signifying nothing. So he rightfully reminds them that, as another prophet said, God requires only that we do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God. If we do that, the sacrifical system has meaning and efficacy. If not, not. Our sacrifices become monstrous and repulsive to God if they are not mingled with faithfulness, including repentance.

4. Christianity claims that the law is old and obsolete. However, God states that the laws should be followed forever.

Another oversimplification. We find the prophets Jeremiah and Ezekiel speaking of a hoped-for new covenant where the law of God is not something externally imposed but something lived out from the heart. At the time of the Tanakh writings, this hope was still entirely in the future. Christianity claims to be the inauguration (not complete fulfillment) of that future hope. The resultant uncomfortable in-between time does not put an end to the Law but relativizes it somewhat to accommodate the presence of Gentiles in the people of God. Thus some things such as circumcision have to be abandoned as signs of covenant membership.

For a very useful discussion on how the early Christian movement related to other forms of Judaism extant in the first century, I recommend N. T. Wright's seminal work, The New Testament and the People of God.

 

[McBell]

Throughout this post I will show differences between Christianity and Judaism, and then respond to some claims that Christians make that simply cannot be true (if they also believe in the Bible.

Difference #1
In Judaism, the Bible is something that should be followed, not felt, and so traditionally Observant Jews and Noahides know a lot more about the Tanakh (Old Testament) than Christians. In fact, usually the only Christians who actually know the OT are those who are higher up in scholarship. Your average Christian doesn't know much about the OT or the NT for that matter.

Difference #2
Judaism believes that he Bible should be followed and applied in each person's life. Christians generally believe that they can feel it in their hearts and that's good enough. Most common-man Christians I've talked to say that "Jesus died for my sins, and I believe that, so I'm covered" or some variation of that statement. Other ones do feel guilty when I question them about their lack of knowledge, but the guilt doesn't last long because they'll not go and study, but will stay where they are.

Difference #3
The texts that both Judaism and Christianity use are different. For one, Christians use the Tanakh but deny the Mesorah (ie the Oral Tradition). Whereas, Judaism teaches that the Mesorah is just as divine as the Tanakh, and that the New Testament is false. This (because Christians usually deny the truth of the first two differences) is quite possibly the biggest difference. Of course, Christians always ignore the fact that the Torah CANNOT be followed without the Mesorah. Of course, this works to their advantage because Paul (in his writings) talks about how no one can follow the law and that the purpose of it is to show us that we can't keep it. But text is the biggest issue. Christians (particularly protestants who know about the Catholic acts of the past) are unwilling to accept the teachings of any official source or organizational structure. They believe in Sola Scriptura whereas Judaism takes in all that God has delivered to the world about the Torah.

Difference #4
The next difference is really obvious (to the learnéd person), but is perhaps the most discreet and unknown. Christianity and Judaism disagree about who the son of God is. Christianity teaches that it is Jesus, even Jesus says that he is God's son. And Matthew quotes OT scriptures to validate himself. However, in Exodus 4:22, God says that Israel is his first-born son. Now, this is a hard concept for many to understand the importance of. If the purpose of God's son is to be a light unto the nations as Isaiah says, then who God's son is would be very important. God's son, is the nation of Israel to the Observant Jew or Noahide and to the Christian, God's son is Jesus.

Difference #5
Sin and Evil. Now, in this way Judaism and Christianity are actually quite the same, and yet MUCH different. They are similar in that Judaism and Christianity both accept that sin entered the world through Adam and Eve. Now, in Christianity, sin was not intended to enter the world. It was the result of an evil force (Satan) ruining what God had created by tempting Eve. I understand that not ALL of Christianity believes this, however, I am going simply based on my former Christian understand of the New Testament. In Judaism, sin was the intent. God intended that we should sin. How do we know? Because nothing happens unless God intends it to. Now, in Judaism the purpose of OUR creation is to create a connection to God, to change darkness into light, to make a home for God amongst the physical and amongst that which is evil. We were created to turn evil to good, darkness to light, hunger to plenty. We were created to follow the Torah and through the Torah make things below as they are above. Christianity (parts of it anyways) rejects this idea. Also, in Judaism, there is no opposite force of God. God makes evil, everything that Satan does is an order by God. Satan is a loyal angel and his job is to try and keep us off track through our evil inclination.

Difference #6
The nature of humanity. Christianity believes that humans are inherently bad, and that had Jesus not died we'd all be going to hell. This view is NOT held in Judaism. In fact, Judaism teaches that humanity is inherently good. That people should be valued as people despite their bad acts. That a person, though he may be shrouded in darkness, has good inside of them. Everyone has a redeeming quality which would allow them to do tremendous good. God created man to be ultimately good, and that is what he is.

Difference #7
Repentance. Christianity is based on the notion that blood is necessary for repentance. That God requires blood (Hebrews 9:22). That Jesus is the perfect and Eternal sacrifice that stands as a sacrifice so that we no longer need to bring them. Despite what Christianity believes, the Torah does not require blood for complete repentance. In Judaism there are three ways to repent. There is sacrifice (the least effective), there is charity (the next to least effective), and repentance (the most effective). In Christianity, repentance is accepting that Jesus died for your sins and asking for forgiveness. In Judaism, asking for forgiveness is required, but in addition to that you must actually resolve to never do the sin again. You must be constantly trying to avoid that sin (if it is an addiction) and must be doing everything you can to avoid it.

Difference #8
Christianity teaches that Jesus is the Messiah, Judaism teaches that Jesus did not fulfill the requirements required for a claim to Messiahship

Difference #9
Afterlife. In Judaism everyone goes to the same place. In Christianity, there's a heaven and a hell.

Difference #10
The trinity. In Judaism God is a unity that is not made up of different parts. In Christianity God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

Claims:

1.Christianity makes the claim that Jesus was God (Philippians 2:5-6)

However, the New Testament also teaches that Jesus was a man (1 Tim 2:5).

The Jewish scriptures (which Christianity claims to have derived its truth from) state clearly that God is not a man (Numbers 23:19).

Also, Christians will point to the miracles that Jesus performed as evidence of his godship. However, Jesus was not the only person in the NT to perform miracles. In fact, Jesus never did anything that was exclusively God-like that no one else in the NT did. All of the disciples and apostles did what Jesus did, yet none of them are considered God.

2. Christianity claims that Jesus was the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures and they will throw out a plethora of random verses to try and prove this point.

A lot of their claims are disputed here.

Perhaps the greatest evidence that Jesus was not the Messiah as prophesied by the Jewish scriptures, is the fact that literally nothing changed after Jesus came. Nothing spectacular occurred, nothing got better. In fact, the world got worse a the newly made religion went out and caused all sorts of damage.

3. Christianity claims that a blood sacrifice is necessary for the expiation of sins. (Hebrews 9:22)

However, no where in the Jewish scriptures is that stated. In fact, the forgiveness of sins is more often accomplished through repentance (Ezekial 18 & 33) and through charity (Daniel 4:27).

4. Christianity claims that the law is old and obsolete. (Romans 10:4 & Hebrews 8:13)

However, God states that the laws should be followed forever (Deuteronomy 4:40 & Psalm 119:152).

Based on the above, it is logical to assume that Christianity cannot be true and the Jewish scriptures be true at the same time.

You have done nothing more than show how they are different.
When exactly are you going to prove something other than they are different?

 

[AlsoAnima]

I believe what you are saying is.

"Christianity cannot be true if my interpretation of the Jewish bible is correct."

If that is what you are saying, I will completely agree with you.

 

[ayani]

personally, i do take the Bible literally, and seriously. i read it as something one should apply to one's day to day life, learn from, and follow.

Christians do believe in the inspiration and divine value of the Jewish scriptures, but do not follow Mosaic Law. i know you know all of this, but i'm just staing things simply and clearly.

Luke 16:16 can give a clear picture of why.

regarding Jesus as the Messiah who will (or should, many would say) restore Israel, the first chapter of Acts answers that. He will restore Israel. for Jews, that'll be Messiah's first coming. for those who believe in Him, it'll be recognized as His second. i heard it said once that Israel expected a political Messiah. they got a spiritual one instead, and couldn't figure out who He was.

many Christians do affrm that God is One. and while Jesus does not say "I am God", many things He does say give clues as to who He is. see John 14:6-9, Mark 2:5-12, and John 5:23. Jesus does show that He is one one level distinct from God. yet He also identifies Himself with God's unique authority, power, and person in a number of passages.

what is truly different about coming to Christian faith, is the way that one does it. one doesn't study and learn and advance in understanding to get to be a Christian. one puts their faith in God's Son, whose Holy Spirit changes one's heart, and self. then, being new, one follows, grown spiritually, studies, and leanrs. one is taught and guided by God Himself- through His Word (the Bible), and through the indwelling Holy Spirit. this is why, perhaps, Chrisian explainations of their conversion stories and faith can seem more emotive than deliberately scholarly.