Christian Influences.

[EyeofOdin]

I do study the lore (not in its original text because I can just read a summary) but I feel some heathens take the Lore way too seriously. Some kindreds don't do anything except for reading Lore with an occasional symble or ritual, exactly how most of this generation is raised as Christians (reading a text, interrupted by communion or other rituals).

Something that I've noticed separates pre-Christian practices from the monotheistic is that the pre-Christian practices is that pre-Christian encouraged direct contact with the gods. It was good to embrace the gods, give them offerings and to interpret signs from them. Christian worldview shuns this. They'd much prefer you sit down and read the "thou shalt nots" rather than seeking out this deity they keep on talking about.

But sometimes when I look into the community, I see Christians pretending to be pagan. People who talk about the gods but read a book as if it were a sacred text and who sometimes engage in sipping alcohol or mumbling things in a classical language. The Eddas are the new bible. Symble is the new communion. Old Norse is the new Ecclesiastical Latin.

Why obsess over a sacred text? The ancestors sure didn't do it. Why say chatter things in a language strange to you? If the point is to speak a more Germanic language, English is a Germanic language. Why be so shy on rituals and offerings? A gift demands a gift. If you ask for a phone, and you think Thor's gonna give you one after you send him happy thoughts? If all you give are happy thoughts, all you're gonna get back are happy thoughts.

Religion is real. The gods are real. No reason to obsess over faith like a Christian when you don't need it after seeing it for your own eyes.

 

[Sees]

I've seen/heard quite a few within reconstructionist paths who do have a narrow, tunnel-vision, stuck in the past attitude and philosophy. To me it's the daily life lived, specific religious/spiritual practices, and then lore, history, etc. in order of importance.

 

[Draupadi]

@Eye of Odin- Views on God(s)/ddess(es) of all religions are not the same. Some Deities are actually happy with vocal praises and worshipping rituals that doesn't involve offerings to Them.

 

[EyeofOdin]

@Eye of Odin- Views on God(s)/ddess(es) of all religions are not the same. Some Deities are actually happy with vocal praises and worshipping rituals that doesn't involve offerings to Them.

Well that may be the monotheist way, and certainly there's room for hymns, songs and poetry to the gods in polytheism, but the giving of offerings and arguably sacrifice is essential and are a couple of the most sacred rites within indigenous polytheistic spirituality.

Here's the way I see it: We haven't been disconnected to our indigenous ways for a considerably long time, so what would we know about how to engage with the gods? The ancestors of pre-Christian times have been practicing with offerings, sacrifices and yes, also with hymns and songs. Who are we to say that we know better about how to connect to the gods and ancestors than them? They practiced for over 40,000 years, just in Europe and over 1.5 million years as a species, and they got spiritual and tangible results. Contemporary polytheists have been practicing for at most 50-100 years. We do not know better than our ancestors. Sure, we may know that the earth revolves around the sun and that molecules exist, but when it comes to spiritual engagement under our native traditions, We do not know better than our ancestors.

If the gods have a problem with sacrifice, libations and offerings, they are more than capable to speak against them (and I'm absolutely open to anything the gods have to say, as a devotee. I don't pretend to speak on their behalf), but they don't seem to be talking, at least from what I've seen.

I also noticed that you're a muslim. I would like to clear that I do not judge or condemn monotheism, I'm simply stating that that's not who we are so we shouldn't act like the monotheists. That's not who and what we are. The culture in which you approach divinity is yours, and ours is ours. We are polytheists seeking our ancestral ways, so we should stop adopting the monotheist worldview and actually act like ancestral polytheists.

There have been similar movements within Christianity (I can't speak for Islam because I'm mostly ignorant to beliefs, doctrine and practices) in which the celebration of Christmas, All Saint's Day and Easter have been condemned because they are of pagan origins.

 

[Desert Snake]

We are polytheists seeking our ancestral ways, so we should stop adopting the monotheist worldview and actually act like ancestral polytheists.

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that pagans you know are against offerings?

There have been similar movements within Christianity (I can't speak for Islam because I'm mostly ignorant to beliefs, doctrine and practices) in which the celebration of Christmas, All Saint's Day and Easter have been condemned because they are of pagan origins.

I find this absolutely ridiculous, btw, I've even started a thread on it.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I'm a little confused here. Are you saying that pagans you know are against offerings?


I find this absolutely ridiculous, btw, I've even started a thread on it.

Not necessarily. I am saying that many pagans adopt Christian-like practices which our ancestors wouldn't have recognized.

Whether you think it's ridiculous or not doesn't stop others. Personally, I don't care if you're a Christian celebrating pagan holidays, although I would prefer that you are aware of their origins.

 

[Desert Snake]

Not necessarily. I am saying that many pagans adopt Christian-like practices which our ancestors wouldn't have recognized.

Well, I have to wonder if perhaps they already had those ideas, then incorporated their pagan ideas into them. Being familiar with various traditional beliefs, I find that this is the case with many or most people I have discussions with.

 

[Draupadi]

Well that may be the monotheist way, and certainly there's room for hymns, songs and poetry to the gods in polytheism, but the giving of offerings and arguably sacrifice is essential and are a couple of the most sacred rites within indigenous polytheistic spirituality.

Here's the way I see it: We haven't been disconnected to our indigenous ways for a considerably long time, so what would we know about how to engage with the gods? The ancestors of pre-Christian times have been practicing with offerings, sacrifices and yes, also with hymns and songs. Who are we to say that we know better about how to connect to the gods and ancestors than them? They practiced for over 40,000 years, just in Europe and over 1.5 million years as a species, and they got spiritual and tangible results. Contemporary polytheists have been practicing for at most 50-100 years. We do not know better than our ancestors. Sure, we may know that the earth revolves around the sun and that molecules exist, but when it comes to spiritual engagement under our native traditions, We do not know better than our ancestors.

If the gods have a problem with sacrifice, libations and offerings, they are more than capable to speak against them (and I'm absolutely open to anything the gods have to say, as a devotee. I don't pretend to speak on their behalf), but they don't seem to be talking, at least from what I've seen.

I also noticed that you're a muslim. I would like to clear that I do not judge or condemn monotheism, I'm simply stating that that's not who we are so we shouldn't act like the monotheists. That's not who and what we are. The culture in which you approach divinity is yours, and ours is ours. We are polytheists seeking our ancestral ways, so we should stop adopting the monotheist worldview and actually act like ancestral polytheists.

There have been similar movements within Christianity (I can't speak for Islam because I'm mostly ignorant to beliefs, doctrine and practices) in which the celebration of Christmas, All Saint's Day and Easter have been condemned because they are of pagan origins.

But the monotheists have another belief. It is that their religions are the oldest and the only true ones, even older than the pagans'. The rest are shams.

 

[Quintessence]

I agree that Paganisms are, historically speaking, focused on practices and action rather than creed and dogma. This is also generally true of Neopaganisms. However, as Neopaganisms are precisely that, the practices of many Neopagans sometimes diverge from those that are known from historical eras. What you are remarking upon, EyeofOdin, is one of those divergences.

Very few of us grew up in a household that embraced our religions. Most of us came to it on our own. As such, our dominant influences come not from historical Paganisms, but the Western cultural norms we were immersed in previously. I know that wrapping my head around true polytheism alone was a challenge because of this, as has been discarding my culture's traditional notions of dualism and its lack of a sense of place. Shifting to a Pagan worldview from an Abrahamic, classical monotheist one is a dramatic one. It's challenging, and because of that, I have a hard time being judgmental of Neopagans whose practices seem to have a few pages that came from non-Pagan culture. The Pagan ways don't come naturally to them, and it's a shift that happens over time, if it happens at all. If it never happens, I don't see anything wrong with what they are doing. If they enjoy reading the Pagan mythos of antiquity as if it were the Bible instead of more directly communing with the gods, more power to them. In some cases, they might be New Agers more than Pagans. That's fine.

Where I draw the line is with monotheism. Pagans cannot be, by definition, monotheists. I am also often tempted to explicitly state you must be polytheist to be a Pagan of any sort, but out of respect for the atheistic Neopagans out there, I hesitate to make that stipulation. In form, many of them do the same rituals and offerings we do, they just don't use the word "god" to describe their objects of worship for some reason.

 

[EyeofOdin]

But the monotheists have another belief. It is that their religions are the oldest and the only true ones, even older than the pagans'. The rest are shams.

Yes, but the beliefs of monotheists are typically historically inaccurate, because they are centered around a historically inaccurate book.

 

[Draupadi]

How do you know that the books of the pagans are not inaccurate? I find both types inaccurate.

 

[Quintessence]

How do you know that the books of the Pagans are not inaccurate? I find both types inaccurate.

Without know what you mean by inaccurate here and what specifically you're referring to within Pagan religions, I'm not sure how to go about answering that question. "Accuracy" with respect to how Abrahamic religions would fuss over the term really isn't a thing in Paganisms, so I'm not sure that this question is relevant. Or at least it shouldn't be; if it is to a given Neopagan, that might be indicative of yet more Abrahamic conditioning hangovers.

 

[Riverwolf]

I do study the lore (not in its original text because I can just read a summary) but I feel some heathens take the Lore way too seriously. Some kindreds don't do anything except for reading Lore with an occasional symble or ritual, exactly how most of this generation is raised as Christians (reading a text, interrupted by communion or other rituals).

Something that I've noticed separates pre-Christian practices from the monotheistic is that the pre-Christian practices is that pre-Christian encouraged direct contact with the gods. It was good to embrace the gods, give them offerings and to interpret signs from them. Christian worldview shuns this. They'd much prefer you sit down and read the "thou shalt nots" rather than seeking out this deity they keep on talking about.

But sometimes when I look into the community, I see Christians pretending to be pagan. People who talk about the gods but read a book as if it were a sacred text and who sometimes engage in sipping alcohol or mumbling things in a classical language. The Eddas are the new bible. Symble is the new communion. Old Norse is the new Ecclesiastical Latin.

Why obsess over a sacred text? The ancestors sure didn't do it. Why say chatter things in a language strange to you? If the point is to speak a more Germanic language, English is a Germanic language. Why be so shy on rituals and offerings? A gift demands a gift. If you ask for a phone, and you think Thor's gonna give you one after you send him happy thoughts? If all you give are happy thoughts, all you're gonna get back are happy thoughts.

Religion is real. The gods are real. No reason to obsess over faith like a Christian when you don't need it after seeing it for your own eyes.

I really like your expression of this, as it's something that's bugged me, as well. Modern English might not feel totally right due to heavy influences from Romance languages (particularly French), but expressing things in more Germanic manners isn't hard at all, nor does it require using a bunch of archaic words from Old English.

Sure, I'll sing the Yggrasil song from that band, Duivelspeck (who apparently has no presence outside Germany since all the websites about them are in German ) sometimes, which is just a single verse from Voluspa regarding Yggrasil set to custom music and repeated. But that's just because I love the song, not because I think it's magical, or anything. Miracle of Sound's Skyrim tribute songs, Legends of the Frost and Sovengard Song, are just as valid.

The Old Way is very distinct from the New Way, and I think many modern Pagans would do well to remember that. Ours is a tradition that is dynamic, oral, and varying. In the Old Times, each Tribe would certainly have had its own variations on the Lore, and its own set of customs and rituals. Furthermore, there wasn't a separation between one's religion and all other aspects of a person's life; everything a person did was his or her religion, from the quickest good luck rituals when starting a new project, to the grandest mutli-day celebrations. Hence why I call it the Old Way, rather than the Old Religion. Whether one "believed" in the Gods or not was also not terribly important, in all likelihood, as long as the Tribe's particular customs were followed and respected. What you did was far more important than what you thought.

But for me, perhaps the biggest misunderstanding is that the Old Way never truly went away; it just donned a new set of clothes (as I like to put it). While many of the Old Gods sadly died, many more of them just went to sleep, remained somewhat awake while retaining some of their power, or kept all of their power under new human identities. (Robin Hood, for example, is likely the Anglo-Saxon Forest God Puck). Many of our customs in pan-Anglo-American culture go all the way back to Anglo-Saxon and Celtic Britannian culture, even after taking Christian guises. The Holy Grail, if my research is any indication, has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity or Mediterranean spirituality; it's a concept adopted from British Paganism. Or just simple things like emphasis on being polite, ideals of personal freedom, and using plant-imagery in our decorations: all these are the Old Way. Even our very language contains echoes of the Old Way, from the days of the week to the names we use for certain things (Thunder, for example).

 

[Riverwolf]

How do you know that the books of the pagans are not inaccurate? I find both types inaccurate.

We don't use books. Virtually all "Pagan Books" were written by Christian monks trying to preserve their favorite childhood stories.

Havamal is a text whose title basically translates to "Sayings of Odin", indicating that it's supposed to be, well, Odin's Word. I don't believe for one second that any of the text is Odin's Word; it's the word of a human.

 

[Draupadi]

As much as I know that pagan religions are not static. They adapt to different circumstances or at least the modern ones. However I believe that the Quran is quite logical and that's why I believe that God is just happy with vocal praises. Besides, Abrahamic Gods and pagan Gods are different. The latters are more human-like. But there is nothing wrong with that.

Maybe we should start a debate on who is right the pagans or the Abrahamists and their books? By the way my experience tells me no matter with what name you call the Deity or try to satisfy Him/Her/They, it usually works. That's why like the Wiccans I believe that all path lead to the Deity.

 

[EyeofOdin]

How do you know that the books of the pagans are not inaccurate? I find both types inaccurate.

The books of the pagans were never meant to be taken literally as fundamentalist monotheists do. Did Dionysus really turn a ship of pirates into dolphins after sinking them and becoming kidnapped? Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but that's not the point. The point is that Dionysus is a deity who would show mercy on pirates he's punishing, to turn them into dolphins so they wouldn't drown, even though they kidnapped him and tried to kill him. He would show great mercy even onto his enemies.

Here's another example: The Lore says that Odin hung himself on the world tree until his own death so that he could gain knowledge about the runes. Did he actually do that? Maybe. Is that where the runes come from? Maybe, maybe not. The point is that a) Odin has such a hunger and desire for knowledge that he's willing to hang himself and die for another piece of it and b) the runes are so powerful that they may have involved a huge ordeal of a god.

 

[Riverwolf]

By the way my experience tells me no matter with what name you call the Deity or try to satisfy Him/Her/They, it usually works. That's why like the Wiccans I believe that all path lead to the Deity.

I believe that whatever form the Divine takes is whatever form the individual needs from them at that moment.

I have a mind that naturally tends towards polytheism, and so the Divine "appears" to me as many Gods.

I'm still reminded of (and probably somewhat inspired by) the story of how Krishna split himself into a thousand Krishnas, one for each of his thousand wives. I remember once getting into a debate as to whether Krishna was still One God or Many Gods. I never read the source material, so I don't know for sure if this is the case, but nowadays I like to imagine that, in addition to being a thousand individuals, each one of them has a distinctive personality, individual habits, and perhaps even slightly different appearances.

For myself, Woden is a Wandering God, Father of Baldur(Embodiment of All That Is Good) and husband to Frigga All-Mother. He is distinct from the Sky God Tiw, who was King before. But Thunor is the Son of Sky and Earth together, of Woden and Jord. Is Woden, then, the Sky after all?

If the Gods have any one Consistent Nature, its Paradox.

Besides, we all live beneath the Sky, and upon the Earth. The Sky and Earth have thousands of variations depending on location, but they're still the Sky and Earth.

 

[EyeofOdin]

I believe that whatever form the Divine takes is whatever form the individual needs from them at that moment.

I have a mind that naturally tends towards polytheism, and so the Divine "appears" to me as many Gods.

I'm still reminded of (and probably somewhat inspired by) the story of how Krishna split himself into a thousand Krishnas, one for each of his thousand wives. I remember once getting into a debate as to whether Krishna was still One God or Many Gods. I never read the source material, so I don't know for sure if this is the case, but nowadays I like to imagine that, in addition to being a thousand individuals, each one of them has a distinctive personality, individual habits, and perhaps even slightly different appearances.

For myself, Woden is a Wandering God, Father of Baldur(Embodiment of All That Is Good) and husband to Frigga All-Mother. He is distinct from the Sky God Tiw, who was King before. But Thunor is the Son of Sky and Earth together, of Woden and Jord. Is Woden, then, the Sky after all?

If the Gods have any one Consistent Nature, its Paradox.

Besides, we all live beneath the Sky, and upon the Earth. The Sky and Earth have thousands of variations depending on location, but they're still the Sky and Earth.

When it comes to the true nature of the gods, it doesn't matter and I'm not sure we can ever truly know. We have finite human brains, how can we fully ever understand The Powers? How can we ever get all of the spiritual or cosmological details figured out?