Christian: Is the Bible inerrantly true?

[Joannicius]

Could you point me to some, please?

I am getting ready to leave right now but let's start with the Nicene Creed

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all worlds. Light of Light, Very God of Very God, Begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by whom all things were made: Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the prophets.



And I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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This was given us by the Church that gave us the canonizaion of our Holy Scripture........if we believe they had the authority to do that from The Holy Spirit we must embrace the Nicene Creed as they gave it to us before they canonized the scriptures and many other canons for us to follow.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I agree with much of this creed excepting of course the final statement.

 

[Joannicius]

NetDoc:
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Forgive me for being sarcastic but what part of the Bible don't you accept ?

You do know Luther tossed parts out at will, don't you?

The Creed is 2nd ONLY to the Scriptures in authority, maybe equal.
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[Scuba Pete]

Oh, I don't reject any of the scriptures... I do reject this statement:

And I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

 

[Doc]

Luther threw several books out because they were not translated from the original Hebrew thus making sketchy whether they were divinely inspired or not. They were Hebrew to Greek or something or Latin. Anyway...

Perhaps some of you have heard of Anne Hutchinson. Many of the first colonists of America fled England hoping to purify the Anglican Church. Thus creating Puritans. They focused mainly on Bible Study and prayer life. Anne Hutchinson, a firm believer in God, felt that other things were more important. She believed that living a holy life was more important than prayer and going to church, and studying the Bible. To make things short, they threw her out on her ear and she was banished from the church. She was later shot with an arrow.

I agree that Spirituality is living a good life is more important also. Such things unite us where our silly arguements about which book is real or whos religion is the best only divides us.

 

[Scott1]

Could you point me to some, please?

Yes.... I agree.... I'd like to hear some of these as well.

 

[Joannicius]

Luther threw several books out because they were not translated from the original Hebrew thus making sketchy whether they were divinely inspired or not. They were Hebrew to Greek or something or Latin. Anyway...

Perhaps some of you have heard of Anne Hutchinson. Many of the first colonists of America fled England hoping to purify the Anglican Church. Thus creating Puritans. They focused mainly on Bible Study and prayer life. Anne Hutchinson, a firm believer in God, felt that other things were more important. She believed that living a holy life was more important than prayer and going to church, and studying the Bible. To make things short, they threw her out on her ear and she was banished from the church. She was later shot with an arrow.

I agree that Spirituality is living a good life is more important also. Such things unite us where our silly arguements about which book is real or whos religion is the best only divides us.

The point is: being so arrogant to assume more understanding and authority than the church fathers and 1500 +/- years of Church history, not to mention the Ecumenical Councils of the entirety of the Christian world at that time. ((It is no small matter, this. If the whole of all who claim Christianity could see the authority that was granted by The Holy Spirit through the Councils, we would have immediate and total unity among those who love the only one who ever rose from the dead by His own power.)) Since Luther assumed that amount of authority it stands to reason that thousands after him would think it reasonable or acceptable to do the same.

My becoming Orthodox was a lot as the result of my looking at the witnesses of doctrine and dogma as in a court of law. It doesn't work in court very well nor scripture to have one witness against scores, hundred and even thousands. Therefore, it is beyond my comprehension to accept Joseph Smith or Mohammed etc. who among many were witness to themselves with no collaboration.

As for the silliness of our debating over facts and dogmas. I see it as very serious, for our eternal destiny is as stake, the way I read and believe scripture. Are we to gauge our own life and in doing so neglect the very tools God gave us to draw us to Himself.......The Church, The Scripture and Prayer?? I submit that if we neglect such a great salvation we are making gods of our own minds and cutting ourselves off from true community and union with mankind and God himself which admittedly is a slow and very gradual reality that many don't perceive.

I agree.... I'd like to hear some of these as well.

It's late, but for the Scotts, let's start with the Nicene Creed.....you saw that coming, didn't you?​

 

[Scuba Pete]

I wish we could get back on topic... I feel that debaitng which (if any) church is the "one true church" is not within the scope of Biblical inerrancy.

 

[Scott1]

I wish we could get back on topic... I feel that debaitng which (if any) church is the "one true church" is not within the scope of Biblical inerrancy.

That's a fine opinion ND.... but there are some of us out here that only have faith in Scripture because we have faith in the Church that defined it.... so it's quite on topic.

 

[Scott1]

It's late, but for the Scotts, let's start with the Nicene Creed.....you saw that coming, didn't you?

No, not really..... I personally don't see a reason for the Schism.....I respect and love the liturgy and faith of the East, and don't think it has to be the same as my own for Communion to be possible.

 

[Joannicius]

Are you saying that the difference is so insignificant that you would lay down the "and the Son" clause, and deny the Popes infallability, deny indulgences, forget the belief of Purgetory, adhere to the teaching of Uncreated Light, accept our apophatic perspective and be in union? That may do it!

I deeply repect that it is your faith, and you as a person, but have limited respect when it comes to teachings that I believe causes division, not unity of the faithful.

By the way, IMHO, the ones who aren't serious and faithful shouldn't enter in to this discussion, for we have the most serious of matters at stake.​

Maybe we should take this to another area, no? yes?​

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Also, there is quite a difference in having fellowship, respecting another, recognizing the love of Christ in another and having the Most Sacred Eucherist with them. For with it is life and death, healing or harm, growth or emaciation.​

 

[Joannicius]

Of course you know, I speak as a fool. The Great Schism, as it is called was a break in relationship as a divorce and agreeing to facts doesn't heal a marriage. It takes long, hard, arduous labor, if in fact the marriage is ever brought back to a place of health. One of the facts that makes me dogmatic in the relationship between the RC and the EO is that, even though my exposure has been limited to the RC services, all I have experienced have been progresingly more toward minimalism and away from the apostolic faith. As I stated in the past, apostolic succession is meaningless without the keeping of the faith. Also, the definition by the East is encapsulated in the Seven Councils.

 

[Melody]

I have been struggling with this idea of the Bible being the inerrant and infallible Word of God and still have not come to any resolution but here are a few of my thoughts/quandries.

If I believe that my salvation comes only through Christ's sacrifice and God's Grace, then it must be because I believe what the Bible says since this is the only "proof" we have that tells us He is.

If I believe the Bible is authoritative "proof", then I must believe that it is God inspired because if it wasn't, then why should I believe what some guy wrote 2,000 years ago. This leads me to the conclusion that God inspired the whole book because if even one section was not God inspired, then the validity of the entire work becomes suspect.

This leads me to the belief that the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.

Infallible means "not liable to mislead, deceive, or disappoint" and I'm just not sure the Bible qualifies since it is written in such a way that it can be interpreted (or twisted) by the reader to mean many things. If that weren't so, we wouldn't have all the denominations we do and they wouldn't be contradicting each other.

For example, some Christians interpret a few verses of the Bible in a way that makes women appear second class citizens, inferior to man and under his dominion. However, this view is at odds with the overall tone of the "entire" Bible where women were held in high esteem. The modern day woman in me sees this as "patronizing" but when I look at the times and culture, I realize that it wasn't. I think modern day Christians who use the Bible as a way of keeping women "in their place" forget this as well.

I think sometimes people take their preconceived notions and then "see" what they want to. One more of God's tests?

Anyway, my .02.

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know Melody,

I am going through much the same dilemma. But I am seeing that the Bible can be inspired by God and still have errors.

In our pride, we demand "proof" from God that he exists. He has already given us far more than we need.

With more pride, we demand clarity for our understanding. He has already given us his Spirit to guide us and that is really all we need. We look to the Bible for rules and regulations, when it tells us that his laws will be written on our hearts.

God inspired prophets to write the scriptures. They were all fallible. They lived their lives in error and it is not too much of a stretch to think that they wrote in error as well. Why?

II Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

God's power can work through ANYTHING! Errors in man, errors in scripture and errors in translation. He really wants our HEARTS and nothing more.

 

[michel]

You know Melody,

I am going through much the same dilemma. But I am seeing that the Bible can be inspired by God and still have errors.

In our pride, we demand "proof" from God that he exists. He has already given us far more than we need.

With more pride, we demand clarity for our understanding. He has already given us his Spirit to guide us and that is really all we need. We look to the Bible for rules and regulations, when it tells us that his laws will be written on our hearts.

God inspired prophets to write the scriptures. They were all fallible. They lived their lives in error and it is not too much of a stretch to think that they wrote in error as well. Why?

II Corinthians 4:6 For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.

God's power can work through ANYTHING! Errors in man, errors in scripture and errors in translation. He really wants our HEARTS and nothing more.

That is a good point; I have been through the 'I need proof God' bit, but as you say net Doc, the proof is all around us; the other 'bit' we need to remember is Faith.

As far as the bible is concerned, I have always personally believed that errors have crept in here and there . The saying 'It takes a man to mess things up, but it takes a computer to really mess things up' comes to mind. We are talking of people, like you and me, who have relayed stories throughout the agas (Perhaps even to the point of writing from a biassed point of view)

 

[Joannicius]

Wow, I love the honesty of you guys......I've been where you are and the transition in accepting (to me what is reality) ​

any change of dogma was a very difficult struggle. Let it suffice me to say, the Bible doesn't have to be​

inerrant to be TRUE......our trust is in the fact that the ones who gave it to us knew they were human and​

sinful but still represented God and Truth as best men can. Of course I should say better than MAN can, being​

inspired by the Holy Spirit is not a trite and trivial thing as made in this culture. As we see, it many times​

cost our lives. (The Orthodox are known as the Church of the Martyrs; in case you don't know it, there were​

conservatively 20,000,000 martyred under Stalin)​

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It is imperative that you experience the worship and teaching of the ​

Orthodox before you judge by hearsay or by sinful witness as myself.​

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[Joannicius]

For example, some Christians interpret a few verses of the Bible in a way that makes women appear second class citizens, inferior to man and under his dominion. However, this view is at odds with the overall tone of the "entire" Bible where women were held in high esteem. The modern day woman in me sees this as "patronizing" but when I look at the times and culture, I realize that it wasn't. I think modern day Christians who use the Bible as a way of keeping women "in their place" forget this as well.

This is the truth, Christians should see the place Christ gives his mother, ​

the Theotokos, which means "bearer of God"..........​

The highest esteem of mere humans.​

I think sometimes people take their preconceived notions and then "see" what they want to. One more of God's tests?

Yes, we do.​

Anyway, my .02.

Thank you Melody and Michel and Doc for your candor.​

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[Scuba Pete]

our trust is in the fact that the ones who gave it to us knew they were human

Nah, our trust doesn't lie in other humans. It lies in a God who is able to do FAR MORE than we can ask or imagine. After all, he made an a$$ speak, and people like me haven't shut up since!

 

[Joannicius]

:jiggy: Me also :jiggy:
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[Chris]

If dogma isn't important, Christ and the Martyrs all died in vain.

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Doesn't it amaze any of the Christians on this board that the
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Western Christian (Catholic and Protestant) deny many of the​

tennants of The Faith that was held sacred for over one thousand years?????​

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Yes.... Christ died so that Mary can be venerated, married men can't be priests, and the martyr's can be honored.​

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Give me a break.​

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From what I remember, Christ died for our salvation. Christianity is an individuals response, and submission to Christ's authority. So tell me, where do Mary and the saints fit in here????​

Basically they make good examples, sermons, and bed time stories, but beyond that they are meaningless in one's salvation.​