Christian "science" fair

[Nanda]

What are your thoughts on this?
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/another_christian_science_fair.php

And here's some more:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=18345643&BRD=2081&PAG=461&dept_id=385210&rfi=6

 

[rocketman]

Storm in a teacup. Certainly not the beginning of a new dark age as one article respondant implied, lol. Anyway, it's like Santa Claus: the kids will eventually figure it out. But that's not to say that some of them won't grow up and get genuine degrees and make serious and legitimate challenges to conventional thinking. And good on 'em if they do.

 

[MaddLlama]

This is what happens when you teach kids that they don't need to learn real science because religion has all the answers. You get a mass of people who are ridiculously uninformed, but think they know everything. And, that's embarrassing for religion, and the state of education.

Be kind to your children, let them learn science in school. You can always beat them with religion when they come home.

 

[Aasimar]

Nothing like blatantly lying to children to please your god. The sad thing is not the kid messing up the project, it's the fact that he was given first prize for Life Science when his project didn't even have anything to do with Life Science. Appalling,

 

[fantome profane]

Storm in a teacup. Certainly not the beginning of a new dark age as one article respondant implied, lol.

I am sure that is what people said at the beginning of the last dark age.

 

[Pariah]

But that's not to say that some of them won't grow up and get genuine degrees and make serious and legitimate challenges to conventional thinking. And good on 'em if they do.

I want to congratulate future paradigm shifters as well, but I can't help but realize that more than a few of them might evolve into genuine Creationists who are employed under "Answers in Genesis" and open up new Creationist Museums. There has to be more or something like that wouldn't have opened in the first place, you know?

 

[rocketman]

I want to congratulate future paradigm shifters as well, but I can't help but realize that more than a few of them might evolve into genuine Creationists who are employed under "Answers in Genesis" and open up new Creationist Museums. There has to be more or something like that wouldn't have opened in the first place, you know?

Or they could be even smarter than the AIG guys and bring even tougher challenges to the mainstream point of view.

I haven't visited the new museum (have you?) but if the content parralels that of AIG then I would expect to find a mixture of shaky suppositions combined with some serious and challenging observations. If I ever do visit the US I'd probably go there. I would not be ashamed to have an open minded look.

 

[rocketman]

I am sure that is what people said at the beginning of the last dark age.

Fantôme Profane, do you honestly think that we are on the verge of a new dark age?

 

[Pariah]

Or they could be even smarter than the AIG guys and bring even tougher challenges to the mainstream point of view.

I would agree with the idea that whoever it comes from, a true paradigm shift supplanted by strong, concrete, evidence, should be accepeted.

I would not be ashamed to have an open minded look.

Neither would I, but at this particularly junction of religion and science, scientists tend to find that evolution explains much more than our bodily changes.

 

[fantome profane]

Fantôme Profane, do you honestly think that we are on the verge of a new dark age?

Yes! I absolutely do think it is a very real possibility. Especially if we sit back and ignore what is going on. If we decide that it is not important for science teachers to teach good science then we will have no one to blame but ourselves for the rising culture of ignorance. If we continue on as we have been not only accepting ignorance, but actual encouraging and rewarding it then things could get very dark very fast.

I know you think we are all overreacting, but I don’t see anyone getting out the torches and pitchforks. All I am saying is that we must educate children. These people are actually making a concentrated effort to misinform children. And you ask me if I honestly think we on the verge of a new dark age? In some places we are well past the verge.

I admire your optimism, even if I obviously don’t share it. Yes it is possible that some of these children may go on to get real educations in the sciences, and some of them may go on to challenge conventional ways of thinking. But just imagine how many more of them could do so if they actually received good scientific education now. Just think about how many brilliant young minds are being polluted by this kind of nonsense. How many students are being hurt by this “dis-education”?

If you are looking for a paradigm shift towards a greater understanding of the universe this is not the way to do it. You cannot achieve greater understanding by promoting ignorance.

 

[rojse]

I think that some of the science fair projects about science, especially the links on the second website, were not only wrong and misled, but also disgusting, especially the one about a woman's place in society.

Science and religion should be two separate spheres of learning. I have no problem with religion, it brings comfort to those that have it, but to try to bring faulty science to try and prove a religious point is wrong, and to not teach children proper scientific ideas and concepts, is wrong too.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I want to laugh, but this is far too serious to laugh at.
It's sad that a science project in a biology project, that has nothing to do with biology, is sorely misinformed in facts, hypothesis, and everything else, wins first place. The fact the teachers and judges applauded this bad science is terrible.

 

[MaddLlama]

I want to laugh, but this is far too serious to laugh at.
It's sad that a science project in a biology project, that has nothing to do with biology, is sorely misinformed in facts, hypothesis, and everything else, wins first place. The fact the teachers and judges applauded this bad science is terrible.

Likely because they know just as little about science.

 

[lunamoth]

Lysenkoism

from wiki link above:

Lysenko's actual "science" was nonexistent. He was a proponent of the ideas of Ivan Vladimirovich Michurin, and practiced a form of Lamarckism, insisting on the change in species among plants through hybridization and grafting, as well as a variety of other non-genetic techniques. With this came, most importantly, the implication that acquired characteristics of an organism could be inherited by later generations.

Between 1934 and 1940, under Lysenko's admonitions and with Stalin's blessings, many geneticists were executed (including Agol, Levit, and Nadson) or sent to labor camps. The famous Soviet geneticist Nikolai Vavilov, was arrested in 1940 and died in prison in 1943. Genetics was stigmatized as a "bourgeois science" or "fascist science" (due to the fact that fascists — particularly the Nazis in Germany — embraced genetics and attempted to use it to justify their theories on eugenics and the master race). Some Soviet geneticists, however, survived and continued to work in genetics, dangerous as it was.
In 1948, genetics was officially declared "a bourgeois pseudoscience"; all geneticists were fired from work (some were also arrested), and all genetic research was discontinued. Nikita Khrushchev, who fancied himself as an expert in agricultural science, also valued Lysenko as a great scientist, and the taboo on genetics continued (but all geneticists were released or rehabilitated posthumously). Only in the middle of the 1960s was it waived. As a consequence, Lysenkoism caused serious, long-term harm to Soviet biology. It represented a serious failure of the early Soviet leadership to find real solutions to agricultural problems, allowing their system to be hijacked by a charlatan — at the expense of many human lives. Lysenkoism also spread to China, where it continued long after it was eventually denounced by the Soviets.
Almost alone among Western scientists, John Desmond Bernal, Professor of Physics at Birkbeck College, University of London and a Fellow of the Royal Society, made an aggressive public defense of Lysenko and some years later gave an obituary of ‘Stalin as a Scientist.’
Lysenkoism also had a profound affect in China during its Great Leap Forward. Lysenko's absurd agricultural guidelines were blindly and wholeheartedly adopted by Mao Zedong, and then forced upon Chinese peasants. This resulted in widespread crop failure and consequently famine among the countryside and rural populations.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Likely because they know just as little about science.

Aye, which is also just as sad. But more frustrating since they are teaching it and promoting it.

 

[rocketman]

If we decide that it is not important for science teachers to teach good science then we will have no one to blame but ourselves for the rising culture of ignorance. .

As you know from our past conversations I don't like psuedoscience and I don't disagree that pushing it is a bad thing. What I am getting at is the bigger picture. The out of proportion reaction to this sliver of society really surprises me. There are other strange groups with strange ideas, many worse. If we put things in perspective I think we would quickly find that these kids are not going to turn the world upside down. More likely that drugs, guns, wars, looming genetic discrimination and who knows what else, all of it based on proper science, is much more able to turn us over to a dark age, imho. Unless by dark age you mean that religious people run things. (Already there).

If any of those kids want a proper science job one day they will have to have legitimate credentials. If they are smart enough to be scientists they will figure out their errors early. If not then they would have gone down the pseudoscience path anyhow. Don't forget for a second that these people have already dismissed evolution in their minds, before they do their psuedoscience. Extreme views will always exist.

It's better to have these people confront the world with their ideas so that they can be exposed to the corrective mechanisms out there. You and I will lament and be saddened by their wasted opportunities along the way, but if they have made their mind up before they do their 'science' then it's the 'medicine they have to have.'

If they get past their little science fair (14 years old is still young for heaven's sake) and they do get real degrees and still maintain their faith and only debate things when they have real science to debate with, then I think such people would fondly remember the half-baked science of their youth as something interesting that fired a spark in them that otherwise would not have. And conversely I think that if they became real scientists who rejected their faith they would look back at their youth with bitterness at having a part of it wasted. And I think the latter one would be making a mistake. (Not that my preference isn't for straight up science straight away).

I know you think we are all overreacting, but I don’t see anyone getting out the torches and pitchforks.

You had me worried.

All I am saying is that we must educate children.

Agreed. That's the ideal situation. And science would be but one tiny part imho..

These people are actually making a concentrated effort to misinform children.

Probably not deliberately though. They believe it's true.

And you ask me if I honestly think we on the verge of a new dark age? In some places we are well past the verge.

I don't follow. For example, I don't use my knowledge of evolutionary theory in my day to day life at all. Even if I was totally ignorant of it my life would be the same. Apart from some misinformation how will these kids live a life of suffering because of this? How will a lack of understanding of evolution, or even science in general, cause them to enter us into a dark age? Wasn't it human selfishness that caused the last dark age? If science makes us 'enlightened', then there is a majority of 'enlightened ones' to protect us from the coming darkness. Unless we put selfish people in charge...

I admire your optimism, even if I obviously don’t share it.

And I admire your defence of innocent children and their right to all the information. I guess we just have different assessments on the consequences of these things. Haven't we had this conversation before?

 

[fantome profane]

The out of proportion reaction to this sliver of society really surprises me. There are other strange groups with strange ideas, many worse.

Imagine someone comes up to you with a gun and demands your money, which you wisely hand over. Then as the criminal is running away you notice a couple of police officers standing there who witnessed the whole thing. You ask the police why they didn’t do anything, and they tell you “it is not important, there are bigger crimes”.

You cannot dismiss injustice simply because there are greater injustices. For every disaster there is a bigger disaster and for every tragedy an even more tragic event. Yes drugs, guns, discrimination, war etc are greater evils than a high school “un-science” fair. But that does not make our response out of proportion, anymore than it would be out of proportion for the police to chase down a mugger.

If we put things in perspective I think we would quickly find that these kids are not going to turn the world upside down.

And that is the tragedy.

It is possible that some of these kids may go on to have brilliant careers in science, but it is also possible that this will prevent them from becoming then kind of people that can “turn the world upside down”. What if one of those students has the potential to be one of the great minds of humanity, like an Einstein or Newton, but their intellectual development is stunted by this? Is that not enough of a tragedy to concern myself with?

Don't forget for a second that these people have already dismissed evolution in their minds, before they do their psuedoscience.

This is not the point. It may surprise you but I really don’t care if people dismiss evolution or not. It doesn’t matter whether these students believe in evolution or creationism or whatever. What does matter is that they receive an education. And part of that, especially in a science/biology class should include an understanding of evolution. It should certainly include an understanding of what is and is not biology. Salt stalactites have nothing to do with biology.

I don’t care if the teachers believe in evolution or not, but if they are teaching science to children then they had better have an understanding of it, and they had better teach the undistorted evidence.

It's better to have these people confront the world with their ideas so that they can be exposed to the corrective mechanisms out there.

And that is all I am suggesting we do, expose and correct the errors. I don’t understand why you are claiming this is out of proportion.

You and I will lament and be saddened by their wasted opportunities along the way

Well I am glad to hear that you will lament with me and be saddened by this. But why do you think my lamentation is out of proportion? What do you think should be the proper proportional lamentation? How can I tell if I am lamenting too much or too little?

As you know from our past conversations I don't like psuedoscience and I don't disagree that pushing it is a bad thing.

I appreciate that you don’t like pseudo-science and don’t think it should but pushed on children. Given your distaste for such things I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you to have to constantly defend it. But then again I really don’t understand why you feel the need to constantly defend this nonsense.

 

[rocketman]

You cannot dismiss injustice simply because there are greater injustices.

Ok, but what can we do about it? What are you doing about it? Are you acting on it? Besides being here? Or is this enough? I'm here too speaking against psuedoscience but I'm hardly pro-evolutionist as you know, in fact I think there is plenty of psuedoscience in both camps. I have been well educated in conventional science. So does my resistance to conventional thinking make me a risky citizen like those kids will be? Who should we protect? How far should we go? What if some of the science turns out to be dead flat false? Do we all have to be formed in the same mould? Sounds scary.

(that last parargraph was purely rhetorical, please don't take it personally)

Salt stalactites have nothing to do with biology.

I'm pretty sure a 14 year old would know that. I find it hard to believe we are getting an accurate story.

I don’t care if the teachers believe in evolution or not, but if they are teaching science to children then they had better have an understanding of it, and they had better teach the undistorted evidence.

And which interpretation of that undistorted evidence should they turn to? For there are often more than one, and often within the scientific community itself. Who's in charge of what's right?

I don’t understand why you are claiming this is out of proportion.

The term 'Dark Age' is strong language. To me anyways.

Well I am glad to hear that you will lament with me and be saddened by this. But why do you think my lamentation is out of proportion? What do you think should be the proper proportional lamentation? How can I tell if I am lamenting too much or too little? ..

I appreciate that you don’t like pseudo-science and don’t think it should but pushed on children. Given your distaste for such things I can only imagine how frustrating it is for you to have to constantly defend it. But then again I really don’t understand why you feel the need to constantly defend this nonsense.

I'm not defending it. I'm defending people's right to make stupid mistakes. No matter how hard we try, we can't stop them all, or we really would be in the dark ages [no freedom!] I think society has built-in mechanisms to catch this one. You say stop it before it starts. We think differently.

Let's pretend that we were raising kids: I'd be the one saying 'let junior ride without training wheels', you'd be the one to leave them on until there was no chance at all that he/she would fail when they come off. (Just a guess, don't be offended).

At any rate, you are the sensible one.

 

[doppelganger]

If this won first place, just imagine what the other projects were.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I have given up worrying about these things.
If creationists end up being a sort of educational underclass so be it.

The real work and the real science will continue anyway.:yes:

Though I would not like to live in an America where these Ideas were in the Majority.
It would lose it's place near the top of the scientific community.
and easily degenerate in other fields too.